TIAI March 9

[MJonmind]

Indeed where are all the many competing paps for house or UCLA on June 25, only Ben's company.

If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

:lol:

Does anyone remember way back there was either a video or a post focusing on faces that seemed to reappear for different roles in the hoax as in actors/actresses, like in the earlier Murray court preliminaries, security guards, a particular MJ fan group, and more? Thanks.

[GINAFELICIA]

In the 911 call they never said it was Michael Jackson but a gentleman of 50.
And he was admitted at UCLA under the name Soule Shaun.
The paramedics said they didn't recognize Michael Jackson, because there was an old frail man.

So one scenario would be this: another person died instead of Michael.
In this case nobody from the fire dep. or from the paramedics or from the hospital had to be in the hoax and everything that happened that day was for real, except the fact that the dying person was not Michael.

I would go for this

There is only one problem: Why the paramedics, if they are not in the hoax, didn't  reveal that the ambulance pic is fake?

[mjfansince4]

how crazy. i was just going to post about the paramedics last night in the other thread about the ambulance picture, but i wasn't even sure if it was relevant. i feel bad i haven't been helping out lately- it's finals week and my brain is being sunk by the endless papers i have to write. sorry guys, you're all doing an incredible job!


the paramedics are what i specifically focused on in the ambulance picture. i have different scenarios and questions running through my head. i'll post them, hopefully you guys can help me sort through the mess in my head.

let's say they are paid actors. to make things easier (and involve less people) michael could have hired a set of actors and had them sign a confidentiality agreement. they could be the paramedics on "the other day" as well as "the day." he could have also asked them to place the 911 call (since we know it sounds phony). multiple jobs for as little people as possible-less likely the hoax leaks. with this scenario, the doctors at UCLA would have to have known that the paramedics were actors and expecting who or what was on the stretcher. this would also work with the assumption the court is a set up. nobody commits perjury or is "lying under oath" of any kind since it is all a fallacy anyway.

the other scenario would be that there were a set of hired actors (or models) for "the other day." then the real paramedics responded to the house to collect a "hospice patient" believing it to be michael. in this case, the 911 would have to be real, since a paramedics who are doing their daily runs do not respond to a fake call. they would have to be dispatched. this would also mean that michael had to somehow know the race of the paramedics who would come to the house to match them in the ambulance photo (since the photo was shown worldwide, you'd think real EMTs would say "that's not my arm or body"-especially in court). this sounds like a much more complicated and shaky plan.

also, who is to say that the EMTs in the photo (assuming they are not real EMTs) aren't actors, but some of michael's friends/ employees? Would he have to pay people to do a job he could entrust to those who are most loyal to him? We don't know who michael knows (perfect example would be the casicos). maybe those who took the stand are neither actors nor real EMTs, but rather friends whom michael didn't have to pay. their loyalty was free.

by examining the paramedics within the picture, i have a hard time believing that they are real EMTs. the one factor that gets me every time is the paramedic on the left, with one hand on michael's chest. now, it's obvious he isn't doing chest compressions. let's say this picture was taken in seconds, each frame representing a millisecond even.  when would an EMT ever stand over a patient with one hand on the chest? wouldn't that seem he would be leaning on the patient (a big common sense no-no)? i'm open to ideas. the placement of the hand is what gets me.

just some thoughts.

hey TS: now that we've graduated, are we sophomores now? my birthday's next week and i'm getting old. i'll cling to anything that represents youth!

[2good2btrue]

Indeed where are all the many competing paps for house or UCLA on June 25, only Ben's company.

If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

:lol:

Does anyone remember way back there was either a video or a post focusing on faces that seemed to reappear for different roles in the hoax as in actors/actresses, like in the earlier Murray court preliminaries, security guards, a particular MJ fan group, and more? Thanks.

This is the topic about all the same people, acting out the same roles...

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And I totally agree about them maybe being friends, playing a role for MJ, BUT, wouldn't the real Ambulance paramedics, who are the original staff at station 71, come forward and say "HEY... THATS NOT US!!!!  WE WEREN"T THERE !!!"  That would ruin everything for the hoax, and illusion.  IMO..

[mjptd]

I think that the paramedics are involved. If the photo ambulance is a false why none of them said nothing to the press? For example, that the man in the picture is not the same that have relief

[GINAFELICIA]

How many alternatives do we have?

1.They are not in the hoax because there is no hoax and Michael died.
2.They are not in the hoax and somebody else died, but why they didn't say the ambulance pic is a fake?
3.They are in the hoax and somebody else died.
4.They are in the hoax and nobody died, there was a dummy.

But it's not that simple because we also have to consider if the following were real:
-  the 911 call
-  the ambulance
-  the fire dept. car
-  the paramedics
-  the UCLA doctors
What I missed?

Who has time to solve k-combinations of n?

[trustno1]

Agreed.  The silence from the paramedics and the fact that they were conveniently not photographed so their faces were visible is just too convenient.  

[wishingstar]

GINAFELICIA said:
"Who has time to solve k-combinations of n?"


It does feel like an ever growing Pascal Triangle at times, lol! Or maybe I should say Pascal Pyramid!
Blessings to you GINAFELICIA! Have a great day!
Wishingstar

[MissG]

Indeed where are all the many competing paps for house or UCLA on June 25, only Ben's company.

If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

:lol:

Does anyone remember way back there was either a video or a post focusing on faces that seemed to reappear for different roles in the hoax as in actors/actresses, like in the earlier Murray court preliminaries, security guards, a particular MJ fan group, and more? Thanks.

This is the topic about all the same people, acting out the same roles...

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

And I totally agree about them maybe being friends, playing a role for MJ, BUT, wouldn't the real Ambulance paramedics, who are the original staff at station 71, come forward and say "HEY... THATS NOT US!!!!  WE WEREN"T THERE !!!"  That would ruin everything for the hoax, and illusion.  IMO..

Great thread! Need to read it!

[wishingstar]

I have always found this video interesting:
[youtube:3m2fshv1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg[/youtube:3m2fshv1]

I don't think if I walked up to a fire station in my town, I'd be able to film an ambulance like that.  Has anyone from forum tried this.....anyone live there close enough?  I would in a heartbeat......I'd love to see eye to eye any of company 71.  In the video here, the fireman on duty conveniently says the people on duty for Michael's call are out.  Is this really station 71?  I think so.  Here is an article about a pancake Breakfast Breakfast they hosted :
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Anyone look familiar?  Paramedics?  

Blessings Always!

[suspicious mind]

umm let me see if i can say this in a way that is understandable. sometimes say like in a murder situation there is evidence that is not released because it is something only the murderer would know. now what if that is the reason that the paramedics have not said the photo is fake? because that is something only the person responsible for making it and getting it out should know ? i guess that would me that the paramedics would be under some kind of gag order maybe?  :?

[paula-c]

Pages 13-15:

a) External exam & remarks:


1- The body is identified by toe tag (Federal law states that all the deceased be swabbed for DNA analysis & have their information entered into the newly created DNA bank. There’s no indication of any sort of DNA test in this case. There’s no indication of why they didn't finger print the deceased, although this is the most common method of IDing a body especially since they had Michael’s finger prints on file from the 2005 booking )

2- The body was refrigerated un-embalmed & there’s no indication of future embalmment & whether it is going to be done at the coroner’s or at the mortuary.

{** Interesting Observation: The autopsy did not take place till 6/26/09 & as mentioned above the body was refrigerated, however on page 13, the coroner conducting the autopsy mentions presence of ETT (Endo-Tracheal Tube that they inserted in his throat to make sure the airway is open & to give him oxygen, remember the infamous ambulance picture & also look back at my previous posts on the autopsy analysis) It is absolutely BIZARRE to have the body refrigerated with the ETT still in place. Because rigor mortis is going to happen & also the cold is going to stiffen the muscles & it will be hard to extract the tube. ALWAYS all the medical extensions must be removed from the body before refrigerating it & before the rigor mortis sets in, otherwise you're jeopardizing the autopsy & it's accuracy, because you will be damaging the tissues & organs. Also the IABP (intra aortic balloon pump) & CL (central lines including IVs) are said to be still in place at the time of the autopsy. neither myself nor my professor who is a trained coroner has ever seen anything like this. this is either a typo or if they indeed leave this items in his body & refrigerated it they have compromised the accuracy of the autopsy.}


3- The body weighs 136 lb = 62 Kg


4- The body’s height is 69 inches = 5.75 ft = 175.26 cm ( Michael’s height according to his driver’s license & passport is 5.9 ft = 179.83 cm )


5- Lower back has 1/4-1/2 inch (0.64-1.27 cm)pre-mortem abrasions which are thought to be caused by some sort of beads found on the deceased’s bed as shown in the scene photographs.


6- A condom catheter is present. [Condom catheter sits over the penis & allows a person to empty his bladder without using a urinal, bedpan, or toilet.]


7- Gauze pads are seen on the right side of the neck, both left & right antecubital fossa (triangular cavity of elbow joint where they usually draw blood from) and left forearm.


8- The central chest has an irregular abrasion of the following size: 1.1/2 x 1.1/4 inch = 3.81 x 3.18 cm. This abrasion is surrounded by a bruise of the following size: 3 x 3 inch = 7.62 x 7.62 cm (could be caused by CPR)


9- The soft tissue of the left anterior chest (left bosom) shows a 3.1/2 x 2 inch = 8.89 x 5.08 cm bruise (could be caused by CPR)


10- The soft tissue of the right anterior chest (right bosom) shows a 5 x 3.12 inch = 12.7 x 8.89 cm bruise (could be caused by CPR)


11- The sternum ( long thin bone that connect the ribs in the middle of the chest) is fractured at 3rd rib.


12- Both right & left 4th & 5th ribs are fractured at the rib junction to the sternum bone.

13- Behind both left & right ears a 3/4 inch = 1.9 cm scar is visible

14- A 3/5 inch = 1.52 cm scar on outer wall of each nostril, both right & left

15- Top of right shoulder bears an irregular scar-like area with a diameter of 4 inches = 10.16 cm

16- On the back side of the neck, right at the base, there are two visible scars, the one on the right side measures about 3 inches = 7.62 cm & the one on the left side measures about 3.3/4 inches = 9.53 cm

17- Both left & right wrist bear a scar measuring to 1/8 inch = 0.32 cm (there’s no indication whether this scar appears on the front or back side of the wrist)

18- The inside of the arm, close to the triangular cavity of the elbow joint bears a scar measuring to 1/4 inch = 0.64 cm

19- There’s a scar measuring to 7/8 inch = 2.22 cm on the muscle on the palm of the hand just beneath the thumb of the right hand.

20- Right lower quadrant (in medicine we refer to this section of human body as RLQ & it bears the following important organs in males: cecum, appendix, ascending colon, right ureter), the RLQ of the deceased bears a 2 inch = 5.08 cm surgical scar (however later on the report we notice that none of the organs in the RLQ are missing & to claim this scar as a surgical scar just seems bizarre & inaccurate.)

21- There’s a 5/8 inch = 1.6 cm scar around the navel

22- The right knee bears a semicircular scar & few other smaller scars are located at a distance from it, measuring 1/2 to 1/4 inch = 1/27 to 0.64 cm

23- The front of right leg has a 5 x 2.1/2 inch = 12.7 x 6.35 cm area of hyper-pigmentation

24- There are dark tattoos on both eyebrows, eyelids (lower & upper) and on the front half of the scalp. There is also a pink tattoo around the lips.

25- Focal de-pigmentation of skin especially over the front of the chest and abdomen, face & arms (this could be due to his vitiliago)

26- Rigor mortis (rigidity of muscles that happens after death) is present in limbs & jaw. Lividity is fixed (meaning the skin color has turned purple due to the pooling of blood after death & even after applying pressure the color stays purple which means the person has been dead for more than 10 hrs.)

27- There are no abnormalities seen on the head & it is partly covered by black hair which is short & tightly curled. The front of head has some balding.

28- The eyes are brown and the white part of the eye is free of any abnormal coloration. There’s no purple hemorrhage of the inner side of the eye lids.

29- The passage connecting the nose & the mouth is unobstructed.

30- A bandage is seen on the tip of the nose

31- It is stated that he neck is unremarkable (this is a contradiction to previous statements pointing out all the marks & scars on the neck!!!!)

32- There’s no chest deformity, both outer & inner wall of chest seem normal.

33- Penis is uncircumcised

34- The exterior & surface of the body doesn’t show any swelling or deformation or abnormality

35- It is mentioned that the body was not clothed. This is very ambiguous, as earlier in the report, when the body was in the hospital it was mentioned that the deceased was wearing a hospital gown. It is common to submit all the deceased clothing to the coroner for investigation. I doubt Michael arrived to the hospital naked & I doubt they transferred his body to the coroner’s office naked.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Ethical issuesCardiopulmonary resuscitation and advanced cardiac life support are not always the interest of a person. This is especially true in the case of terminal illness when resuscitation would not alter the outcome of the disease . Properly performed CPR often fractures cause rib , especially in patients older or who have osteoporosis . Defibrillation, especially repeated several times as required by the protocols of advanced cardiac life support, can cause burns  electricity . Internal cardiac massage, another procedure of advanced cardiac life support performed by emergency medicine physicians need to open the rib cage, which is painful during the weeks of recovery.

Not surprisingly, some people with a terminal illness choose to avoid such actions "heroic" and receive only a palliative treatment .

People who wish to seek treatment for a cardiac arrest should discuss these wishes with your doctor and your family.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It is also important that these views are aimed somewhere in the medical record. In the event of cardiac arrest, professionals health need to act quickly based on available information. As often cardiac arrest occurs outside regular hours, the resuscitation team rarely includes someone who knows the patient.

A patient can ask your doctor to file a Do Not Resuscitate order (DNR, for its acronym in English ) in the medical record. Alternatively, in many jurisdictions, a person may formally indicate their wishes in an "advance directive" or "advanced health care directive" (ie, is a document which indicates legal in how you want to be treated if seriously ill and no hope recovery).

[MissG]

umm let me see if i can say this in a way that is understandable. sometimes say like in a murder situation there is evidence that is not released because it is something only the murderer would know. now what if that is the reason that the paramedics have not said the photo is fake? because that is something only the person responsible for making it and getting it out should know ? i guess that would me that the paramedics would be under some kind of gag order maybe?  :?

To me the question is:
Why would medias display the same pic but with clear differences between them from the same event (the ambo pic)?

[paula-c]

Pages 13-15:

a) External exam & remarks:


1- The body is identified by toe tag (Federal law states that all the deceased be swabbed for DNA analysis & have their information entered into the newly created DNA bank. There’s no indication of any sort of DNA test in this case. There’s no indication of why they didn't finger print the deceased, although this is the most common method of IDing a body especially since they had Michael’s finger prints on file from the 2005 booking )

2- The body was refrigerated un-embalmed & there’s no indication of future embalmment & whether it is going to be done at the coroner’s or at the mortuary.

{** Interesting Observation: The autopsy did not take place till 6/26/09 & as mentioned above the body was refrigerated, however on page 13, the coroner conducting the autopsy mentions presence of ETT (Endo-Tracheal Tube that they inserted in his throat to make sure the airway is open & to give him oxygen, remember the infamous ambulance picture & also look back at my previous posts on the autopsy analysis) It is absolutely BIZARRE to have the body refrigerated with the ETT still in place. Because rigor mortis is going to happen & also the cold is going to stiffen the muscles & it will be hard to extract the tube. ALWAYS all the medical extensions must be removed from the body before refrigerating it & before the rigor mortis sets in, otherwise you're jeopardizing the autopsy & it's accuracy, because you will be damaging the tissues & organs. Also the IABP (intra aortic balloon pump) & CL (central lines including IVs) are said to be still in place at the time of the autopsy. neither myself nor my professor who is a trained coroner has ever seen anything like this. this is either a typo or if they indeed leave this items in his body & refrigerated it they have compromised the accuracy of the autopsy.}


3- The body weighs 136 lb = 62 Kg


4- The body’s height is 69 inches = 5.75 ft = 175.26 cm ( Michael’s height according to his driver’s license & passport is 5.9 ft = 179.83 cm )


5- Lower back has 1/4-1/2 inch (0.64-1.27 cm)pre-mortem abrasions which are thought to be caused by some sort of beads found on the deceased’s bed as shown in the scene photographs.


6- A condom catheter is present. [Condom catheter sits over the penis & allows a person to empty his bladder without using a urinal, bedpan, or toilet.]


7- Gauze pads are seen on the right side of the neck, both left & right antecubital fossa (triangular cavity of elbow joint where they usually draw blood from) and left forearm.


8- The central chest has an irregular abrasion of the following size: 1.1/2 x 1.1/4 inch = 3.81 x 3.18 cm. This abrasion is surrounded by a bruise of the following size: 3 x 3 inch = 7.62 x 7.62 cm (could be caused by CPR)


9- The soft tissue of the left anterior chest (left bosom) shows a 3.1/2 x 2 inch = 8.89 x 5.08 cm bruise (could be caused by CPR)


10- The soft tissue of the right anterior chest (right bosom) shows a 5 x 3.12 inch = 12.7 x 8.89 cm bruise (could be caused by CPR)


11- The sternum ( long thin bone that connect the ribs in the middle of the chest) is fractured at 3rd rib.


12- Both right & left 4th & 5th ribs are fractured at the rib junction to the sternum bone.

13- Behind both left & right ears a 3/4 inch = 1.9 cm scar is visible

14- A 3/5 inch = 1.52 cm scar on outer wall of each nostril, both right & left

15- Top of right shoulder bears an irregular scar-like area with a diameter of 4 inches = 10.16 cm

16- On the back side of the neck, right at the base, there are two visible scars, the one on the right side measures about 3 inches = 7.62 cm & the one on the left side measures about 3.3/4 inches = 9.53 cm

17- Both left & right wrist bear a scar measuring to 1/8 inch = 0.32 cm (there’s no indication whether this scar appears on the front or back side of the wrist)

18- The inside of the arm, close to the triangular cavity of the elbow joint bears a scar measuring to 1/4 inch = 0.64 cm

19- There’s a scar measuring to 7/8 inch = 2.22 cm on the muscle on the palm of the hand just beneath the thumb of the right hand.

20- Right lower quadrant (in medicine we refer to this section of human body as RLQ & it bears the following important organs in males: cecum, appendix, ascending colon, right ureter), the RLQ of the deceased bears a 2 inch = 5.08 cm surgical scar (however later on the report we notice that none of the organs in the RLQ are missing & to claim this scar as a surgical scar just seems bizarre & inaccurate.)

21- There’s a 5/8 inch = 1.6 cm scar around the navel

22- The right knee bears a semicircular scar & few other smaller scars are located at a distance from it, measuring 1/2 to 1/4 inch = 1/27 to 0.64 cm

23- The front of right leg has a 5 x 2.1/2 inch = 12.7 x 6.35 cm area of hyper-pigmentation

24- There are dark tattoos on both eyebrows, eyelids (lower & upper) and on the front half of the scalp. There is also a pink tattoo around the lips.

25- Focal de-pigmentation of skin especially over the front of the chest and abdomen, face & arms (this could be due to his vitiliago)

26- Rigor mortis (rigidity of muscles that happens after death) is present in limbs & jaw. Lividity is fixed (meaning the skin color has turned purple due to the pooling of blood after death & even after applying pressure the color stays purple which means the person has been dead for more than 10 hrs.)

27- There are no abnormalities seen on the head & it is partly covered by black hair which is short & tightly curled. The front of head has some balding.

28- The eyes are brown and the white part of the eye is free of any abnormal coloration. There’s no purple hemorrhage of the inner side of the eye lids.

29- The passage connecting the nose & the mouth is unobstructed.

30- A bandage is seen on the tip of the nose

31- It is stated that he neck is unremarkable (this is a contradiction to previous statements pointing out all the marks & scars on the neck!!!!)

32- There’s no chest deformity, both outer & inner wall of chest seem normal.

33- Penis is uncircumcised

34- The exterior & surface of the body doesn’t show any swelling or deformation or abnormality

35- It is mentioned that the body was not clothed. This is very ambiguous, as earlier in the report, when the body was in the hospital it was mentioned that the deceased was wearing a hospital gown. It is common to submit all the deceased clothing to the coroner for investigation. I doubt Michael arrived to the hospital naked & I doubt they transferred his body to the coroner’s office naked.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Ethical issuesCardiopulmonary resuscitation and advanced cardiac life support are not always the interest of a person. This is especially true in the case of terminal illness when resuscitation would not alter the outcome of the disease . Properly performed CPR often fractures cause rib , especially in patients older or who have osteoporosis . Defibrillation, especially repeated several times as required by the protocols of advanced cardiac life support, can cause burns  electricity . Internal cardiac massage, another procedure of advanced cardiac life support performed by emergency medicine physicians need to open the rib cage, which is painful during the weeks of recovery.

Not surprisingly, some people with a terminal illness choose to avoid such actions "heroic" and receive only a palliative treatment .

People who wish to seek treatment for a cardiac arrest should discuss these wishes with your doctor and your family.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It is also important that these views are aimed somewhere in the medical record. In the event of cardiac arrest, professionals health need to act quickly based on available information. As often cardiac arrest occurs outside regular hours, the resuscitation team rarely includes someone who knows the patient.

A patient can ask your doctor to file a Do Not Resuscitate order (DNR, for its acronym in English ) in the medical record. Alternatively, in many jurisdictions, a person may formally indicate their wishes in an "advance directive" or "advanced health care directive" (ie, is a document which indicates legal in how you want to be treated if seriously ill and no hope recovery).

[paula-c]

Endocrine System:

1.- The Thymus is not identified. [this report gets bizarre page by page, apparently the coroner was not able to find the thymus, so the dead body is missing his thymus. The thymus is a specialized organ of the immune system. In lupus patients the whole immune system becomes over active attacking the body’s tissues & organs. However in HIV AIDS patients the thymus will be damaged to the point that it cannot be identified in the body. Another cause for missing the thymus is a very rare birth defect called the Digeorge Syndrome, however people suffering from this syndrome have certain facial features that make them stand out, very much similar to Down Syndrome. We know Michael didn’t have Digeorge Syndrome, there’s no mention of the deceased body having HIV, so why is the thymus missing? I can’t find a medical explanation for it!!!!
It is worth mentioning that removal of Thymus is highly unconventional & dangerous, the only time that a surgeon might decide to remove a thymus is in infants with sever heart defects that require heart surgery, the thymus in these cases sometimes have to be removed in order for the surgeon to have an unobstructed access to the heart. however this is not the case in older children or adults. Another very rare case that requires removal of thymus, which again I insist is very rare & it's a tough choice for a surgeon to make, is if a patient is suffering from Myasthenia gravis. Myasthenia gravis is a neuro-muscular disease leading to severe fluctuation of muscles & weakness & fatiguability. Again not all the cases of Myasthenia gravis require removal of thymus. Removal of thymus bears sever neurological side effects & it is a contributing factor in death of HIV patients. So why is the body missing the Thymus?]

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What I mean with the last two post is that propablemte someone die that day in the house and the paramedicos not to recognize Michael, now the assumptions paramedicos that are in the ambulance can be actors.