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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 09:55:40 PM
Quote from: "bec"
That was funny longlive, you should have left it.

Here's what I found. The "leaf" pattern appears to go behind objects in the foreground in the pic twice. One time the image goes behind the paramedics arm, the second it goes behind the white cloth wee see. See here:



This suggests that the image actually existed on the wall/box/side of ambulance interior.

I do concede that this could have been manipulated during the editing process.

But again the question the shopped theory begs is, why bother?

The only other explanation is that the reflection/leave patterns were correct and everything else was superimposed or edited in (which would explain the overlay).  If that was true- the ambulance would have been empty... Magic trick- all eyes were on it.  While the action was somewhere else.  

My head hurts from this thread.  In a good way.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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"Hope is both the earliest and the most indispensable virtue inherent in the state of being alive. If life is to be sustained hope must remain, even where confidence is wounded, trust impaired."
Erik H. Erikson

Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 10:13:12 PM
So now I’m going to start challenging some of the theories out there, on the ambulance photo.  Please keep in mind that I’m not trying to pick on anyone specific; I am only asking for critical examination, and clear evidence.  And yes, many very good and correct things have been researched and discovered by hoax investigators; I am not trying to discredit all of the tremendous effort that has been put into this for 20 months now.  But there are some particular areas that I want to challenge; and if they can be sustained by solid evidence, fine.  And if not, then we may need to revise some of our conclusions.

Some have said that the photo is fake, because the reflection of the red car is facing the wrong direction.  But the red car was parked facing the same direction that the ambulance drove away while leaving, and in the reflection the red car is facing towards the front of the ambulance.  

A similar idea is that the red car is too low to the ground, for it to be reflected in a window that is much higher than the level of the car.  Anyone can debunk this idea by walking up to a mirror (or a window that has a good reflection in it); the closer you get to the mirror/window, the more you can see things lower and lower to the ground.  By holding the camera up close to the ambulance window, it would be easy for the camera to see a reflection of something much lower than the ambulance window.

Yet another idea is that the red car was parked in the wrong place for it to be reflected in the ambulance window.  However, that depends on what point in time the famous ambulance photo was taken.  If it was taken while the ambulance was still backing out of the driveway, then yes the car reflection would be wrong; but if the photo was taken later as the ambulance started to pull down the street, then the red car was in the right place to be reflected in the ambulance window.

One of the very first theories was that the ambulance photo is fake, because only the yellow shirt guy is there at the window snapping the shot in the still picture (and in the sunshine, no tree shadows); but the red shirt guy is there in the video of it.  However, the still photo with only the yellow shirt guy was taken as the ambulance was coming out of the driveway—you can even see the fire engine behind the ambulance in that still picture.  The video with the red shirt (and the other guy) is a few seconds later, as the ambulance begins to pull away (and there are shadows of trees in that area).

Another common idea is that you can’t take a picture through the tinted ambulance window.  This point has already been questioned and debated on the hoax forums quite a bit, and several people—even of those who support the hoax—think that it can be done, if you use the right camera, settings, and flash (which is no doubt what professional paparazzi would be prepared to do).  Just because someone tried to do it with a cell phone, and didn’t get good results, means nothing; cell phones don’t normally have flash, and they certainly aren’t the high quality camera and flash equipment that would come on a paparazzi camera.  So we can’t really use this tinted glass argument as solid evidence.  For those who want to research it, there is actually a lot of information on the internet (having nothing to do specifically with MJ or ambulances) about taking pictures through dark or tinted windows.

I’m not going to take the time to include pictures of these things, which most of us have seen hundreds of times now; but if anyone else wants, they can add the pictures of the things we are discussing here.  In my next comment, I will start a detailed examination of the possibilities about the leaf pattern, etc.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 10:54:05 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
So now I’m going to start challenging some of the theories out there, on the ambulance photo.  Please keep in mind that I’m not trying to pick on anyone specific; I am only asking for critical examination, and clear evidence.  And yes, many very good and correct things have been researched and discovered by hoax investigators; I am not trying to discredit all of the tremendous effort that has been put into this for 20 months now.  But there are some particular areas that I want to challenge; and if they can be sustained by solid evidence, fine.  And if not, then we may need to revise some of our conclusions.

Some have said that the photo is fake, because the reflection of the red car is facing the wrong direction.  But the red car was parked facing the same direction that the ambulance drove away while leaving, and in the reflection the red car is facing towards the front of the ambulance.  

A similar idea is that the red car is too low to the ground, for it to be reflected in a window that is much higher than the level of the car.  Anyone can debunk this idea by walking up to a mirror (or a window that has a good reflection in it); the closer you get to the mirror/window, the more you can see things lower and lower to the ground.  By holding the camera up close to the ambulance window, it would be easy for the camera to see a reflection of something much lower than the ambulance window.

Yet another idea is that the red car was parked in the wrong place for it to be reflected in the ambulance window.  However, that depends on what point in time the famous ambulance photo was taken.  If it was taken while the ambulance was still backing out of the driveway, then yes the car reflection would be wrong; but if the photo was taken later as the ambulance started to pull down the street, then the red car was in the right place to be reflected in the ambulance window.

One of the very first theories was that the ambulance photo is fake, because only the yellow shirt guy is there at the window snapping the shot in the still picture (and in the sunshine, no tree shadows); but the red shirt guy is there in the video of it.  However, the still photo with only the yellow shirt guy was taken as the ambulance was coming out of the driveway—you can even see the fire engine behind the ambulance in that still picture.  The video with the red shirt (and the other guy) is a few seconds later, as the ambulance begins to pull away (and there are shadows of trees in that area).

Another common idea is that you can’t take a picture through the tinted ambulance window.  This point has already been questioned and debated on the hoax forums quite a bit, and several people—even of those who support the hoax—think that it can be done, if you use the right camera, settings, and flash (which is no doubt what professional paparazzi would be prepared to do).  Just because someone tried to do it with a cell phone, and didn’t get good results, means nothing; cell phones don’t normally have flash, and they certainly aren’t the high quality camera and flash equipment that would come on a paparazzi camera.  So we can’t really use this tinted glass argument as solid evidence.  For those who want to research it, there is actually a lot of information on the internet (having nothing to do specifically with MJ or ambulances) about taking pictures through dark or tinted windows.

I’m not going to take the time to include pictures of these things, which most of us have seen hundreds of times now; but if anyone else wants, they can add the pictures of the things we are discussing here.  In my next comment, I will start a detailed examination of the possibilities about the leaf pattern, etc.

Looking forward to hearing your comments about the leaf pattern. :)
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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"Let me bathe in my own time when I come back in. I\'m gonna button my shirt or my jacket or whatever it is. I\'m gonna look around a little bit, play with them. Snap my fingers maybe, then BAM!"

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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 11:02:43 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"

Another common idea is that you can’t take a picture through the tinted ambulance window.  This point has already been questioned and debated on the hoax forums quite a bit, and several people—even of those who support the hoax—think that it can be done, if you use the right camera, settings, and flash (which is no doubt what professional paparazzi would be prepared to do).  

It's always amazing to read your posts TS. Thank you. :) I was wondering if the flashlight was used, why don't we see the reflection of the light on the window of the ambulance? Or could that have been removed from the picture with photoshop? Or was the picture taken with a cell phone? But it looks like a camera to me and probably with the flashlight on. And we see the red car's reflection but we can not see the person's reflection who took the picture. He was closer to the window, how can't we see his reflection?
Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 11:12:36 PM by PureLove
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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 11:06:04 PM
I would L.O.V.E. to ask Ben Evenstad about "that day and the other da...and ah...and ah..."

I NEED to watch the Ben Evenstad interview again...
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 11:24:46 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
So now I’m going to start challenging some of the theories out there, on the ambulance photo.  Please keep in mind that I’m not trying to pick on anyone specific; I am only asking for critical examination, and clear evidence.  And yes, many very good and correct things have been researched and discovered by hoax investigators; I am not trying to discredit all of the tremendous effort that has been put into this for 20 months now.  But there are some particular areas that I want to challenge; and if they can be sustained by solid evidence, fine.  And if not, then we may need to revise some of our conclusions.

Some have said that the photo is fake, because the reflection of the red car is facing the wrong direction.  But the red car was parked facing the same direction that the ambulance drove away while leaving, and in the reflection the red car is facing towards the front of the ambulance.  

I agree. Car is pointing in the right direction.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
A similar idea is that the red car is too low to the ground, for it to be reflected in a window that is much higher than the level of the car.  Anyone can debunk this idea by walking up to a mirror (or a window that has a good reflection in it); the closer you get to the mirror/window, the more you can see things lower and lower to the ground.  By holding the camera up close to the ambulance window, it would be easy for the camera to see a reflection of something much lower than the ambulance window.

Agreed as well.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
Yet another idea is that the red car was parked in the wrong place for it to be reflected in the ambulance window.  However, that depends on what point in time the famous ambulance photo was taken.  If it was taken while the ambulance was still backing out of the driveway, then yes the car reflection would be wrong; but if the photo was taken later as the ambulance started to pull down the street, then the red car was in the right place to be reflected in the ambulance window.

Here I am going to call BS. I think the yellow guy made the picture, because as far as I can see the red one holds a video camera. But who made the pic is not even important. In the video you can see clearly that both men only have a good shot (looking at the angle) when the ambulance is still backing out and the car can't be seen in the refelction. As soon as the ambulance is in a place where the car could be in the reflection, the red guy is pointing his camera in the wrong angle. Even if the angle were right, the guy would block the reflection and we would see him instead of the car, or at least a big part of him. If the yellow guy could have snapped it at that moment, same problem occurs: red guy in the reflection.

0:53-0:56
[youtube:sztkxi08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2aM4[/youtube:sztkxi08]

Right angle, clear shot but car can't be in the reflection:


Same here:


Car can be in the reflection here, but the red guy is blocking the viw, so he had to have been in the reflection too:


Also, nowhere in this video we see this scenario, the yellow guy making the picture and the red guy behind the ambulance:


Quote from: "TS_comments"
One of the very first theories was that the ambulance photo is fake, because only the yellow shirt guy is there at the window snapping the shot in the still picture (and in the sunshine, no tree shadows); but the red shirt guy is there in the video of it.  However, the still photo with only the yellow shirt guy was taken as the ambulance was coming out of the driveway—you can even see the fire engine behind the ambulance in that still picture.  The video with the red shirt (and the other guy) is a few seconds later, as the ambulance begins to pull away (and there are shadows of trees in that area).

Scenarios do not match. In the video we see the yellow guy running to the ambulance when the red guy is already at the side window. The poses as we see them in the still, do not match the video at any time.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
Another common idea is that you can’t take a picture through the tinted ambulance window.  This point has already been questioned and debated on the hoax forums quite a bit, and several people—even of those who support the hoax—think that it can be done, if you use the right camera, settings, and flash (which is no doubt what professional paparazzi would be prepared to do).  Just because someone tried to do it with a cell phone, and didn’t get good results, means nothing; cell phones don’t normally have flash, and they certainly aren’t the high quality camera and flash equipment that would come on a paparazzi camera.  So we can’t really use this tinted glass argument as solid evidence.  For those who want to research it, there is actually a lot of information on the internet (having nothing to do specifically with MJ or ambulances) about taking pictures through dark or tinted windows.

I have no clue if that's possible. I would have to try and see for myself with the right equipment first. I agree that you can't compare professional cameras with a cell. But I also heard that you need a special lens for it, one you normally would not use on a sunny day like June 25, 2009. But on the other hand you could think that they were waiting for MJ coming out of the gates in an SUV with similar windows. Do we have some professionals on here?

Quote from: "TS_comments"
I’m not going to take the time to include pictures of these things, which most of us have seen hundreds of times now; but if anyone else wants, they can add the pictures of the things we are discussing here.  In my next comment, I will start a detailed examination of the possibilities about the leaf pattern, etc.

Bring it on!
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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PureLove

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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 11:37:33 PM
Ok here are some screenshots from the video.
In the first one, I think the guy who is holding a professional paparazzi camera is Ben. He's at the back of the ambulance.



In this one we see two of the guys standing very close to each other and both are taking pictures with a cell phone or with a small camera. That explains why we don't see any flashlight reflection on the window. And this can explain why we have different frames of pictures. (if we have)


And the last one is the yellow shirt guy who is also in the second picture. But any of these explain why we don't see the reflection of these guys on the window. They were so close to the window, closer than the red car but still no reflection of them.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Re: TIAI February 26
February 27, 2011, 11:56:03 PM
The first thing I want to do with the leaf pattern, is show that it just plain can’t possibly be a reflection (or part of the background image).  

Okay bec, this time I’m going to give you an “A” for awesome!  You took the words out of my fingers (computer keyboard), and you even did the red circles so I don’t have to!  Actually, I like it when others come up with the answers before I do.  What you just pointed out is one of the strong points about the pattern—both that it is not a reflection, and also that it (probably) is not Photoshopped into the picture.

Notice especially inside the larger red circle: the pattern stops abruptly at the edge of the paramedic’s arm, it does not even fade out gradually—even though the arm at that point is almost as dark as the surrounding background.  This indicates strongly that the pattern is actually inside the ambulance, farther away than the paramedic’s arm; and his arm blocks the light of that pattern.  If it were a reflection, it would certainly continue to be seen at least somewhat on the edge of his arm—and only fade away in the lighter areas of his arm.

And there are a few other reasons why we may know for sure that this leaf pattern is not some kind of reflection.  As I continue to discuss this, I will refer to the five pictures at the beginning of this thread; but I won’t keep posting them here, to save time and space.  Instead, I will refer to them as: PatternClose-up, Ambulance1, Ambulance2, Ambulance3, and Ambulance4 (these names can also be found, using right-click and “Properties”).

The Ambulance1 picture has the strongest image of the red car and background, so let’s start by taking a close look at that picture.  Notice the curb in front of the car; then notice the ground (and sunlight with shadows) between the curb and wall.  The wall itself can’t be seen very much, because there is not much on the wall to be seen (refer again to the wall video, if needed).  But you can see the top of the wall; it is a straight line from near the top left of the picture (a little below the paramedic’s patch), and ending a little lower on the right side of the picture (in the bright spot).  Above that line, you can see again the ground above the wall (and a little more sunlight reflection).

Now that you have a good view of the entire background picture (and not just the car), notice that the leaf pattern is more than half as tall as the wall; so if it was an image on the wall, being reflected in the ambulance photo, we should easily see that large of an image on the video of that wall—but it’s not there!  The wall in the video is almost completely blank.

However, there are some real leaves in the wall video; but they are connected to trees—not just hanging there in mid-space.  Yet the leaf pattern in the ambulance photo is isolated, not connected to anything.  To make it even clearer: notice again the line which is the top of the wall; it runs clear across the ambulance photo—not broken anywhere by a tree trunk, or even smaller branches.  Also the leaves in the photo don’t seem to come close to the size or shape of the leaves in the wall video.

Last but certainly not least: we can eliminate the leaf pattern from being part of the background image, simply by comparing Ambulance1 with Ambulance2.  Compare for example the headlight of the red car in the two pictures; the pointed left end is straight under MJ’s mouth in Ambulance1, but straight under the top of his forehead in Ambulance2.  The background image has moved significantly to the right between the first and second picture; but the leaf pattern is in the same place.

Yes, a bit more of the leaf pattern goes behind the paramedic’s arm in Ambulance2; but this is a very slight difference, compared to how far the red car has moved.  And if the leaf pattern is inside the ambulance (not a reflection): then this slight difference can easily occur from a slight movement in the paramedic’s arm, and/or a slightly different camera position.  But if the leaf pattern were part of the background image, then there is no explanation for why it does not move to the right just as much as the red car moves to the right.

So we have three or four real strong reasons here, why the leaf pattern is not a reflection or part of the background image.  Unless anyone can debunk these reasons, then we can move on to the next step: more detail on whether the leaf pattern is Photoshopped or not.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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bec

Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 12:28:23 AM
Pushing further, the shadow cast by the paramedics arm makes the portion of the pattern that it falls over stand out more.

This is strange to me because a shadow blocks light. Light is what allows your eye (or a camera lens) to "see" detail.

In this case, the shadow appears to enhance our ability to see the pattern detail.

Ps. TS, thank you for the A for awesome. lol.
Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 12:32:04 AM by bec
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Are you entertained?

Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 12:29:56 AM
I'm starting to think this photo was taken in a set and not inside an ambulance. Just a thought....
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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“Your life is like a ship. You're the captain of it. The way you steer it is the way that it is going to go.” ~ Michael Jackson

Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 12:34:17 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Pushing further, the shadow cast by the paramedics arm makes the portion of the pattern that it falls over stand out more.

This is strange to me because a shadow blocks light. Light is what allows your eye (or a camera lens) to "see" detail.

In this case, the shadow appears to enhance our ability to see the pattern detail.

Ps. TS, thank you for the A for awesome. lol.


Good observation bec!  :)
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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“Your life is like a ship. You're the captain of it. The way you steer it is the way that it is going to go.” ~ Michael Jackson

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GINAFELICIA

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Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 12:55:12 AM
Just changed my mind about the leaf pattern: it doesn't look like chinese writing anymore  but like cartoons images.
To be more specific, now I see Peter Pan with some birds flying above his head :lol:
All heading to the left :roll:

can't believe myself smh  :roll:
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Grace

Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 01:05:14 AM
Gina, I have to disagree. No PP.  :lol:
There are two faces in the pics.
Pic 1 shows a face with closed eyes - sleepy, relaxed.
Pic 4 shows a face with open eyes and a joysmile.
We have seen so many eyes shopped into pictures that we cannot count them anymore and this is not due to a vivid imagination.

Bec's observation is a fine one - I just would like to know whether the pictures of this thread are also the ones we have seen in the past.

My request goes to Souza to allow picture upload again (extend picture quota) so that we can also come up with our details because that is not really fair play for the time being.

Quote (selected)
Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.
Thank you.  ;)
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Create your day. Create the most astounding year of your life. Be the change you want to see in the world! L.O.V.E.
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GINAFELICIA

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Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 01:23:41 AM
OK, as I'm the only one seeing Peter Pan, I guess I am totally wrong.
But I can't help looking at Michael and I saw he has no shirt on and that shoulder really looks like HIS shoulder :(
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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MJonmind

Re: TIAI February 26
February 28, 2011, 03:15:59 AM
TS, well this all doesn't seem possible to be this much fun, and the brain stimulation makes a person feel super "alive"! This 20 months being here has been for me like I was on Survival, The Amazing Race, The Apprentice and on and on all rolled into one. People think I'm crazy for loving this all so much, and I feel people are missing out. Thanks so much for being who you are, whoever you are!  :D Looking forward to whatever lies ahead, hopefully the final stretch. I'll be here cheering Michael on with everyone!

Quote from: "Yambo3003"
I'm starting to think this photo was taken in a set and not inside an ambulance. Just a thought....
That's exactly what I was starting to think. Seeing as we're scrutinizing these pics, I'm noticing that even if a professional camera with settings for tint, took a pic through the glass, it would diminish the colors. We clearly see bright yellow, red, tan brown skin which should not be. Also there is too much underlighting the EMT's arms, legs, MJ, and equipment. And if taking the photo from outside the vehicle, the sides areas around the interior would be slightly distorted through glass and especially darker, but the color, clarity and brightness extend out to all the edges. For me the one proof that would stand in a court of law would be the fact that the photographer's reflection is not in prominent view. That seals it for me. Therefore the conclusion I make is that the whole photo is not taken inside the ambulance but taken on set. Perhaps all the equipment was taken out and assembled on set exactly as it would be in the ambulance. The MJ dummy or MJ with tan make-up on lays there with the acting EMT.Then the photo of the car is layered on in photoshop. The paps with the yellow and red shirts are acting and simulating that they are taking that special shot to fit with the plan. The leaves on the ambulance storage door (whatever it is) are drawn on by someone/anybody like MJ or even his kids. I agree the leaves are way too sharp to be a reflection and of course Bec showed they cut off behind the arm and equipment. Why there are leaves added needs more brainstorming. So the whole scene in the street is set up to match this photo or vica   versa. Amazingly clever! All the inconsistencies and seeming realities are all part of the illusion for us to wrack our brain over. Just some thoughts.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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