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[~Souza~]

I have been reading about how to determine the time of death and I get back to the same conclusion every time. I am not a medical savvy, so if I'm off, please correct me.

There are at least 3 ways to determine the time of death. Temperature of the body, lividity and rigor mortis. The body temperature is nowhere to be found and also not the temperature of the liver. I thought they always measured at least the latter during an autopsy, but maybe not when a doctor pronounced the person dead. Besides that, it was said the room was heated (over 90 degrees) so the body temperature would not be of use in this case.

In the autopsy report I found the following regarding lividity and rigor mortis:

"At 1811 hours, rigor mortis was not present throughout the body."

This means rigor did set in, but wasn't completed yet, meaning the person is dead for at least 3 hours. Also stated in the AR:

"and lividity blanched with light pressure."

If lividity still blanched under light pressure, it means the person is dead 4 hours max:

Anywhere from one-half to one hour after death livor can begin to be seen. Its appearance is similar to a bruise. In the early stages of lividity, (less than four hours) the skin, unlike a bruise, can be blanched when pressed. After four hours, the lividity has begun to set, and by six to ten hours, it has reached its maximum and is permanent.
http://www.studyworld.com/basementpaper ... 12_14.html

So that means the time of death (2:26PM) is very believable, because the above information tells us that the person most likely died between 2:11PM and 3:11PM. So the story that the person died hours before EMT's arrived, that the coroner can't seem to figure out the time of death and that the person was dead on arrival, is BS.

Now without thinking this is all a real story, put on your 3D glasses and pretend it's real. If we assume someone was taken to UCLA that afternoon, that person was alive when brought in. That also means Murray told tha troot. It means the EMT's are lying when they say he was long dead when they arrived. It also means someone (whoever it was) performed proper CPR. It also means Murray called the right shot not allowing the EMT's to announce him dead in the ambulance or at the house.

If a person is in cardiac arrest, cooling the body decreases the survival chance. The room was heated into the 90's, but I haven't heard anything about the EMT's cooling the body or room. Instead they left him lying there for more than 30 minutes, even though it's known that people with cardiac arrest treated outside the hospital, have less chance of survival, and even though the room was heated like that.

Defibrillation decreases the chances as well, but I didn't hear anything about that either. I also can't find detected medications in the AR that indicate they gave the heart a boost, like epinephrine or atropine.

So Murray might have given the propofol, but the EMT's did a poor job reviving him. Who's to blame? Looks like Cluedo. I have gone from "Murray - with Propofol - Bedroom at Carolwood Drive" to "EMT's - Lack of professionalism - Bedroom at Carolwood Drive/Ambulance".

Either way, the stories don't add up and it's really weird that there is even the slightest doubt about the time of death. In this story the person died at the hospital and nowhere else.

[mjssoulmate]

I agree with you.  I find it hard to believe that time of death cannot be determined.
They do a better job on NCIS.

[simalves]

Agreed - NCIS does the liver testing and calculating according to the ambient temperature around them. And Craig Harvey who was in charge of the Autopsy is/was a Medical Advisor to NCIS.

[bonita]

Now without thinking this is all a real story, put on your 3D glasses and pretend it's real.

:lol:

[bec]

Thank you for making a thread about this. I've been posting about it for a week but the information is very important and it needs to be widely understood exactly how much bullshit is being spun and exactly how fake this all is... because to loose faith over this is to simply not be aware of the scientific facts of the matter, which are widely available with a quick Google search and not complicated or difficult to understand at all. And at this stage of the game... that's just unacceptable.

Everyone's faith should have been strengthened by the prelim.

[Andrea]

So...the autopsy report was staged to match the official TIME of death of 2:26 p.m.  which we know was a deliberate time, like the 911 call.  And the paramedics are obviously lying and the AR is "evidence" that Murray is telling the "truth" meaning he's innocent.  This tells me there was no body and I was on the fence about whether there was one or not.  The prelim was staged and the lies were told by "witnesses" to drag Murray's name through the mud and make him seem like he's completely inept as a doctor.  To make him look guilty and like he's hiding something.  The only thing Murray has been "hiding" is the fact that Michael is NOT dead.

[paula-c]

bec wrote:

Thank you for making a thread about this. I've been posting about it for a week but the information is very important and it needs to be widely understood exactly how much bullshit is being spun and exactly how fake this all is... because to loose faith over this is to simply not be aware of the scientific facts of the matter, which are widely available with a quick Google search and not complicated or difficult to understand at all. And at this stage of the game... that's just unacceptable.

Everyone's faith should have been strengthened by the prelim.

Agree... and of all these" experts" that to give his testimony in the court, nobody speaks about all these things that do not fit, or it is not necessary to speak

[ladymjc]

I am so glad you pointed this out.  At 1811 hours (which is 1+8+1+1=11 or  / US military 18 hours = 5 hours and 11 minutes. 5:11 = 5+1+1=7) The time of death is figured between 2:11 and 3:11. 2x11 = 222 and 3x11 = 333.  The numerology is amazing, but until I can make it make sense I'll put that out there as a reference to myself and link back to this because I truly think you are on to something with the times here even if we don't know it.

There were 7 doctors and 1 nurse taking care him before his death.

IF the paramedics found him not breathing and without a pulse they can only assume he was dead when they arrived.  

Murray started giving Michael the benzodiazepines lorazepam  and midazolam which are pretty hardcore sedatives, but MJ still couldn't sleep. Michael obviously knew a lot about prescription drugs and with Murray being a doctor he should have know these medicines combined with propofol can cause a state of deep unconsciousness (which is a coma) and make a person stop breathing. But Murray is saying that he thinks Michael injected himself with propofol while he was in the bathroom because when he got back he wasn't breathing. So Murray calls all these people,  he hides the medicine he was giving him in a duffel bag. BUT why would he not hide the drugs that were found in the closet? These included midazolam and flumazenil. Oral midazolam is administered as a pre-anesthetic agent for pediatric patients. The usual dose is 0.5-0.75mg/kg.1 The dose is drawn up from the ampoule and mixed with juice prior to administration due to its bitter taste. The bioavailability of oral midazolam is 15-27%, onset of action 10-20 minutes, and duration of sedation 20 minutes to 3 hours.  http://www.vhpharmsci.com/vhformulary/T ... azolam.htm. Also in the toxicology report it was not mentioned that flumazenil was in his system. Flumazenil is used to counteract the benzodiazepines and literally pushes them out of your system.

A 10cc syringe was found by his bed with the traces of flumazenil. but it was not recorded in his toxicology report.
In this study of the drugs taken by Michael and heat:  Benzodiazepine receptors were solubilized from calf brain cortex by the ionic detergent deoxycholate and by the nonionic detergent Triton X-100. Approximately 90% of the soluble benzodiazepine receptors of both preparations were heat inactivated within 30 min at 55°C.

So if he was in the room at 90 degree temperature, the midazolam would be putting him into a coma state, but the time he reaches the hospital, (within 30 minutes)  the freezing degree temperature that we all know of hospitals and the injection of the flumazenil would be keeping him alive.

What if what really happened was, they started with the benzos in light doses and Murray was the one who was taking on the role of  "killing him". So Murray hooked up the IV of propofol,  Michael drank the midazolam that was in the orange juice bottle by his bed (which would explain the defense saying that MJ drank propofol) to put himself into the deep sleep.  Then MJ knowing the results of what could happen injected himself with the flumazenil to counteract the benzos. (the reason why the defense would say he injected it himself.)  Then Murray had to wait until Michael was in that state of deep consciousness, or the coma in which his family described before having 911 called. This would also explain the children's reaction if Michael didn't want them to know what was going on just yet.  The paramedics arrive right when the effects of the propofol and benzos are taking place and he stops breathing, but by the time he reaches the hospital the flumazenil kicks in and he is "alive" again.

[~Souza~]

Hmmmm, didn't even think of playing with the numbers...

Dead for 3 to 4 hours at time of examination: 3+4=7
ToD between 2:11 pm and 3:11 pm: 2+11=13 / 3+11=14; 13+14=27=9 or 3 x 9 (999)

[scorpionchik]

permanent.http://www.studyworld.com/basementpaper ... 12_14.html

So that means the time of death (2]That also means Murray told tha troot. It means the EMT's are lying when they say he was long dead when they arrived. It also means someone (whoever it was) performed proper CPR. It also means Murray called the right shot not allowing the EMT's to announce him dead in the ambulance or at the house. [/size]If a person is in cardiac arrest, cooling the body decreases the survival chance. The room was heated into the 90's, but I haven't heard anything about the EMT's cooling the body or room. Instead they left him lying there for more than 30 minutes, even though it's known that people with cardiac arrest treated outside the hospital, have less chance of survival, and even though the room was heated like that.
So Murray might have given the propofol, but the EMT's did a poor job reviving him. Who's to blame? Looks like Cluedo. Either way, the stories don't add up and it's really weird that there is even the slightest doubt about the time of death. In this story the person died at the hospital and nowhere else.[/quote]

What motive EMT has lying that whoever died was before they got Carolwood?  if Murrey was ordered to kill Michael, in fact, Murrey did not do proper job to call 911 on time
nor doing CPR with one hand,so  why we should believe him rather than EMT?
Finally, to me, if person died at the hospital, then it was Michael. Because the only theory I feel reasonable is
1.Whoever died was dead at Carolwood before paramedics got there and it was NOT Michael;
2.Michael was taken to the hospital, but DID NOT die there, but remains to be dead for the world, at least yet.
I don't think Mr.X (Dimitri or whoever) was taken to hospital and died there. I don't see this as an option. Because MJ was not going to get hospital per hoax plan, more convinient if he got at the airport before ambulance got there,not just because Jermain said that. Michael would call 911 only if they were sure patient, who replaced Michael, died, in oder for hoax to work. Imagine if Mr. X did not die at the hospital, survived, then hoax plan would fail.

[simalves]

So basically if we unravel this murder mystery.

Michael put himself into a coma state to fool everyone into thinking he was dead. That was probably because AEG was pressurizing him too much.

So Murray actually knows CPR but by doing it on the bed and with only one hand he is only fooling those around him that he was doing the CPR.

His question to everyone around him about "Does anyone know CPR?" was so that he was being sure that everyone around him didn't know he was hoodwinking them. CPR if done on a normal person has adverse effects.

So then Michael awakes in the hospital and he goes into hiding. This has to make the most sense.
So then he awakes in the hospital

[scorpionchik]

I have found very informative article about detailed autopsy performance.  

http://health.howstuffworks.com/disease ... topsy4.htm

When the body is received in a body bag, the seals of the bag are broken and the body is photographed inside the bag. In a forensic autopsy, it is important at this stage for the medical examiner to note the clothing of the deceased and the position of the clothing. This is because once the clothing is removed for the examination, any evidence pertaining to the position of the clothing cannot be documented.
Evidence is collected off of the external surfaces of the body. Hair samples, fingernails, gunshot residue (if present), fibers, paint chips or any other foreign objects found on the surface of the body are collected and noted.
If it is a homicide investigation, the hands of the deceased will be placed in bags at the scene. The medical examiner will open the bags and take residue and fingernail samples. Then the bags are removed, folded and submitted with the samples as part of the evidence.
In some cases, a special UV radiation is used to enhance secretions on the skin or clothes. The radiation causes the secretions to fluoresce so that they may be collected for samples.
If protocol dictates, the body will be X-rayed while still in the body bag. This is an important step. Dr Kiesel explains why:
I had a body the other day where the person had been shot. The body came in, we shot an X-ray through the body bag, we took the body out of the body bag, we did the autopsy and we found all the bullets except for one -- couldn't find it. Well, it was still in the body bag. It was actually through and underneath the body.
Once the evidence is all collected, the body is removed from the bag or sheet and undressed, and the wounds are examined. This is done before the body is cleaned up.
After the body is cleaned, the body is weighed and measured before being placed on the autopsy table for reexamination. The autopsy table is typically a slanted, aluminum table with raised edges that has several faucets and drains used to wash away collecting blood during the internal investigation. The types of table used vary from facility to facility. The body is placed face up on the table, and a body block is placed under the patient's back. A body block is a rubber or plastic "brick" that causes the corpse's chest to protrude forward while the arms and neck fall back. This position makes the chest easier to cut open.

At this point, a general description of the body is made. All identifying features are noted including:

•Race
•Sex
•Hair color and length
•Eye color
•Approximate age
•Any identifying features (scars, tattoos, birthmarks, etc.)

One body is weighed while the other is fingerprinted before the external examination.
These features are noted on a handheld voice recorder or a standard exam form. In addition to all normal features, any external abnormalities are noted in these reports. Dr. Kiesel describes the wrapping up of the external examination:

[Truth_or_Dare]

Maybe the Coroner's didn't have a reason to check for the TOD.  If they had no reason be believe he was dead before he arrived at UCLA, and therefore didnt die in their care. Maybe there was no reason for them to look into that. They found him alive, tried to save him but coulndt, so as far as they are concerned he died at 2:21 pm ( if i remember correctly) But what puzzles me is why didnt the family ask for that to be checked when they had they own autopsy done? If they had doubts...or maybe no one did.,..until later when it was too late to find out.
And one more thing, I dont know if has been discussed: I know that Murray had authority over the paramedics on what should be done to MJ when   they were in the house, but what about at UCLA? If Murray turned MJ over into the care of UCLA, that means they take responsibility of him and what happens to him? So why work on a 3 hour ( at least) dead boy? WHY? Doesnt that damage it? First there's an ethics issues that would ( I assume) go against that and then there's the autopsy; if the body had been damaged after death, they would most certainly be able to tell. That much I know. So if there's nothing on that in the AR...he was not dead when he got to the hospital. Does it make sense?

[paula-c]

I hope that this is understood

Determination of death

Determining time of death : An estimated time or date on which the death occurred, through the analysis of cadaveric phenomena present in the body at the time of medical examination Criminology. The death data is valuable information that facilitates and guides the research especially if the circumstances surrounding the death are unknown. No put scientists to determine with accuracy and its calculation is approximate. Inspection and Event Site : Look at SS evidence that establish the victim's activity to occur just before death and its temporal relationship to the time it was done visual inspection. In SS closed is possible to establish activity related fatalities daily habit (eating, sleeping, working, housework, personal hygiene), for items with these habits: lights and appliances on or off, drinking remains , cigarettes, food, order, cleanliness of furniture, dining room: you can drive, according to presentation, the food been or will be, if food debris, their conservation status, characteristics and pans, plates, cups, cutlery, its relationship with number of people who made use of them. Order bedroom, special bed, bedside table objects in, types of clothing. The bathroom , the water heater temperature, recently used soap, wet towels, shaving brush, s in kitchen and inspect the order, cleanliness, type to prepare food or prepared, remains in pots, plates, and the same temperature, humidity dryers. Presence of non-concordant with the characteristics bedrooms and live as the victim (instruments or objects that do not correspond to the place) , presence of biological, blood, hair, semen, vomit, feces, urine, that establish the physical characteristics (dry, wet, smell) the time of death. In SS opened the presence of tools and utensils that can drive activity and the victim and her relationship with the SS Review the body and clothing : See if there is concordance of clothing with the activity that is developed and immediately before death and whether they were used in this activity (spots or other that may indicate its use)
Observe where the body lies (soil, cement, water) factors that determine changes cadaveric phenomena.
The position of the body help to interpret the inconsistency in cadaveric phenomena, as in this convulsive preceded deaths in the earlier rigid and severe, the victim adopting unusual positions.

The cooling is a physical sign irregular, subject to multiple variations depending on the body and the environment in which it is. The body temperature drops a degree per hour, level with the average of 24 hours. Variations depending on the body are * biotype , the obese are cooled more slowly, more fat, * age , old people and children cool faster * c mass antide bodily exposed, dressed corpse, coffin, cool more slowly . Environmental factors such as heat and high humidity slows the cooling, which is due to evaporation that affects the body and explains the weight loss. Dehydration contributes to the emergence of phenomena cadaveric eye: Opacity of cornea, sclera black spot eye outer corner, sinking eyeball and shriveled and the skin when the epidermis has been destroyed. If the drying of tissues and organs is rapid and extensive, mummification occurs.In the drowned , there is the opposite of dehydration, body weight increases. postmortem lividity, after death, cardiovascular activity ceases and the blood is mobilized by gravity, the blood vessels of the body parts but declines , whose position post-mortem determined the area where they are installed and fixed cadaveric lividity. Its coloration can be altered by physical and chemical factors that may suggest the cause of death, dark red color seen in asphyxia. The red lipstick on carbon monoxide poisoning, which has paradoxical lividity (they are in areas opposed to the decline) , whose origin is possibly the paralytic vasodilatation toxic action of CO (no support points) appear to 3 hrs. cause death. More rapidly in death by suffocation, poisoning or cold. More delayed when the death has occurred due to bleeding, anemia or poisoning with arsenic and strychnine. May not exist when the bleeding has been swift and generous and ahogaos bodies and in rivers that constantly change position in the water. Maximum intensity and extent about 8 hrs. being fixed at 13 hrs., persisting until the putrefaction cadaveric tissue destruction begins assessment of environmental conditions, factors affecting the cadaveric putrefaction * temperature : the temperature rise accelerates * humidity increased gravity favors * depth of the pit : the more prof Single Pack less putrefaction * season : greater in summer physical constitution, depends on the greater or less amount of fat (in obese patients is more pronounced)
Extreme ages: less pronounced in the infant to have intestinal flora was similar, in the elderly is also less marked by wasting the years not only the faces change the appearance but also the internal structure of the skin. Putrefaction corpses starts Bacterial single action both within our body through the enzymes released during the transformation of the tissues and the intestinal flora.

[Almond227]

What motive EMT has lying that whoever died was before they got Carolwood?  if Murrey was ordered to kill Michael, in fact, Murrey did not do proper job to call 911 on time
nor doing CPR with one hand,so  why we should believe him rather than EMT?
Finally, to me, if person died at the hospital, then it was Michael. Because the only theory I feel reasonable is
1.Whoever died was dead at Carolwood before paramedics got there and it was NOT Michael;
2.Michael was taken to the hospital, but DID NOT die there, but remains to be dead for the world, at least yet.
I don't think Mr.X (Dimitri or whoever) was taken to hospital and died there. I don't see this as an option. Because MJ was not going to get hospital per hoax plan, more convinient if he got at the airport before ambulance got there,not just because Jermain said that. Michael would call 911 only if they were sure patient, who replaced Michael, died, in oder for hoax to work. Imagine if Mr. X did not die at the hospital, survived, then hoax plan would fail.
[/quote]

I think that number 1 theory is interesting (NOT Michael)
Looks like Conrad Murray didn't hurry up to call 911, he was stretching time to be sure that patient is dead (99,9% dieing and will be 100% dead in hospital). He didn't leave "Michael" alone with paramedics, he went with him to the hospital to control every step. Because he had to be sure that patient is really dead. He didn't inform Richelle Cooper about propofol that killed his patient. Patient is dead but it was not OUR MICHAEL and dr. Conrad Murray knew everything and didn't sign Death Certificate.
Body was identified by CDL with wrong name (Michael Joseph Jackson?) and DNA test and dental records were not necessary, according to law. So the driving license was ready before and taken to the hospital.
Why did he take him to the hospital and did's let him die at home? Maybe to clean the house from evidence?
PS Testimony "17-CA v. Murray: Dr. Richelle Cooper". Dr. Richelle's eyes are very strange, like she is under drugs. Her pupils are very small and eyes like glass. Maybe she understood that patient was not Michael.