Official General Prelim Discussion thread

[paula-c]

If Murray wants to hide something, so that to leave it in the house? , so that I do not take all those things? leaving the scene of the crime with all the proof :?:

[Sinderella]

Excellent recap/comparison im_convinced!!!

I just hope that your amazing work doesn't get quoted in full a lot haha,it's so long!!!but awesome,well done.

There is so much info from the past 2days it is seriously hard work to summerise it.God damn law people,asking all these questions...AND NOT EVEN THE RIGHT ONES

Souza,where is your popcorn cart at?hook me up IV,salted...size large...go.

Oh he hid things,took things out in bags,left things behind in IV bags.....but he left that all important cream out on the side and had to razzle ma tazzle back from UCLA to get it before the media found out about it.He was amazing on June 25th...like roadrunner on crack.

[PeaceLoveHappiness]

It's pretty sad when scripted TV shows like CSI do a better job examining evidence than the folks in LA.

[Sinderella]

It is also sad/funny-because I think it is hysterical..that there are more facts and evidence floating around this forum than what is floating around in that courtroom.
They could have spent all of 2009 copy and pasting from here.

CRIMINAL MINDS!!!Love that show,Morgan and Reid would have this well figured out by now...Pppffttt.

[mjssoulmate]

I am adding some old material that has been deleted since.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE EVENTS TOOK PLACE AS DESCRIBED.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PERSON DESCRIBED WAS MJ.

It's a blog entry from a paramedic's wife on June 26, 2009:

CPR VIP: that’s the text message I received from Jeff at 2:38 PM yesterday. I am not going to write the name here because I don’t want search engines to turn it up but I think you know who I mean. As you know, Jeff’s fire station is in Bel Air and they got the emergency call. Jeff said they used everything in their paramedic kits and worked on him for 45 minutes taking turns doing chest compressions. He’s pretty sure he was gone before they got there. They went to UCLA medical center with him and had to stay quite a long time. I could see Jeff’s rescue ambulance- 71’s- on the news at the ER entrance for hours. He finally called me around 7 PM and still couldn’t say much. He was warned that the paparazzi can intercept cellphone calls. Back at his fire station, he was fielding phone calls from TMZ and other celebrity websites looking for information. Of course, he is saying, “No comment.” All of the guys on Jeff’s crew had cellphones with cameras but not one took a photo. That would be a million dollar photo. I asked him what I could write today and he said that he would only be comfortable with this… so that’s all for now. We also lost Farrah Fawcett yesterday and that was a long, hard brave struggle that she fought. I had the Farrah Flip back in the 1970’s… we all did.

This man is said to have texted at 2:38 p.m. "CPR VIP".
This does NOT express any occurance of a death.
The death was communicated by family and media.

2.26pm (10.26pm) - Jackson is officially pronounced dead.
2.35pm (10.35pm) – Fire official tells LA Times that Jackson is in hospital. This is then reported by Associated Press
2.44pm (10.44pm) - TMZ.com breaks news Jackson has died, leading Google to crash.

[/b][/u]And WHY was the paramedic warned about paparazzi's methods? By whom?
Disclosure agreement? Exclusivity contract with TMZ?

Don't forget Michael sitting up on the stretcher when entering UCLA.
[youtube:1h0wcb1d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eJtRCVaaM[/youtube:1h0wcb1d]
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And the bodyguards with a person changing cloths?
[youtube:1h0wcb1d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAUnjTt8D8[/youtube:1h0wcb1d]
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Indeed an interesting day in court that only thickened the fog - "creamy days".  :lol:

That can't be right.  TMZ broke the news of Michael's death 6 minutes before he was pronounced dead at UCLA @ 2:20 p.m.

[PeaceLoveHappiness]

It is also sad/funny-because I think it is hysterical..that there are more facts and evidence floating around this forum than what is floating around in that courtroom.
They could have spent all of 2009 copy and pasting from here.

CRIMINAL MINDS!!!Love that show,Morgan and Reid would have this well figured out by now...Pppffttt.

I know.  They should read the forum, maybe they would learn something!

[PeaceLoveHappiness]

Did you find saline bag that had been apparently cut open?
Yes I did.

Find anything in that saline bag?
A bottle of propofol inside that cut open bag.

Photo shown.Yes, (that’s what she found)

Can you describe what I’m showing can you describe?
It’s a slit in the bag.

Did you take this photograph..That was the propofol bottle that was inside the IV bag?
Yes.


The red highlighted portion is NOT in the autopsy report. E. Fleak does not report finding this IV bag with a slit in it and a propofol bottle inside on either visit to the Carolwood home (June 25 & June 29). There is no IV stand as having been reported found in E. Fleaks inventory of items found in the Autopsy Report.

This is how they are suggesting that the propofol was administered to Michael. Yet why isn't it documented in the autopsy report, like everything else? TMZ previously reported about a propofol bottle being ripped open at the top and infused but nothing like this has ever appeared before.

Cover-Up in Michael Jackson Death?
3/1/2010 11:56 AM PST by TMZ Staff  

Michael Jackson received the fatal dose of Propofol through an IV in his leg, and law enforcement believes Dr. Conrad Murray may have tried covering it up ... this according to law enforcement sources and an anesthesiologist who reviewed the case.

Dr. Murray told cops he administered only a very small amount of Propofol -- 2.5ml shortly before Jackson died. But Dr. John Dombrowski, a noted anesthesiologist and member of the board of the American Society of Anesthesiologists who reviewed the file, tells TMZ that 2.5ml couldn't put Jackson to sleep, much less kill him. Indeed, the Coroner's report notes the level of Propofol found in Jackson's body was equivalent to that found during "general anesthesia for major surgery."

A small, empty, 20ml bottle of Propofol was found in the bedroom, but there was a secret compartment in a nearby closet that could be the key to the prosecution's case. Several days after Jackson's death, law enforcement found numerous bottles of Propofol in that closet, including a large, empty, 100ml bottle with a large tear in the rubber stopper. The tear could be critical evidence. There are two ways of administering Propofol. The first is sticking a syringe into the rubber stopper, withdrawing a small amount and then injecting it into the tubing. The second way is by using a spike -- which creates a tear in the rubber stop -- and connects the entire bottle of Propofol to the tube.

Dr. Dombrowski says if a spike is used to connect the bottle directly to the IV tube, the doctor must use an infusion pump to regulate the flow of Propofol -- otherwise, the patient could easily OD. There was no infusion pump found in Jackson's home.

Dr. Dombrowski and law enforcement sources believe Dr. Murray may have connected the 100ml bottle of Propofol to the tube, and then either tried regulating the flow by eyeballing it or just letting it flow by itself ... and Dr. Dombrowski calls either scenario "reckless." Remember, Dr. Murray himself told detectives at one point he walked out of Jackson's room to go to the bathroom.

If Dr. Murray did indeed attach the 100ml bottle to the tube and the contents emptied into Jackson's system, that would be 40 times more Propofol than Dr. Murray said he administered.

There is no explanation for the empty bottle of Propofol in the hidden compartment.
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As I previously posted  E. Fleak does not mention this second IV bag being found in her Inventory in the AR. No Spike is mentioned in the AR nor a bottle with a tear in the stopper. No bottle inside an IV bag is mentioned in E. Fleak's inventory either. This story seems to keep changing.

I am expecting the evidence recovered on June 29th to be deemed inadmissible since the family had access to the house and bedroom before that evidence was found.  The defense could argue that someone else may have planted it there.

[encino_girl]

I am the one who mentioned that people in any profession can moonlight on the side as actors etc....and I will not be swayed in my way of thinking by doubters. If someone has given up hope and faith then that is their right but please do not try and change the way I think about it because I'm locked into my own opinions on this matter.

I agree with you. Harvey Levin is a lawyer, played in a movie. Craig Harvey from the LA Coroner's office has been acting too. And let's not forget former California big-boss Arnie the terminator.

@encino_girl, if you have any proof to back up your story which you present as truth, like this not being legally possible or 100% real, please share. I don't think that will be that hard, since it has been your profession. Otherwise don't act like we are all taking it too far, because if it can be done, all possibilities are open, also the 'far-fetched' one that this is all a combination of a Hollywood movie, Big Brother and Punk'd. Oscar material if you ask me. If MJ does something, he does it well.

I've never once said this is not possible (can happen). I've maintained it's not probable (likely to happen). Huge difference there Souza.

I have always contended this is all real, and will continue to do so based upon my general/prior professional knowledge. As for it having been my profession, the key word is been. For the sake of clarity, I will reiterate my previous statement for you. It has been many, many years since I have been involved in the state of California's justice system. I no longer permanently reside in the state of California, nor do I practice in my previous field any more.

That said, anyone, including a layman, can discern for themselves, by reading the statutes regarding the issues I've mentioned, and after reading said statutes, can deduce for themselves the legal issues and consequences of the acts you (and others) have alleged are presently occurring. So, it seems Google would be of better use than I would to anyone with questions regarding the laws that govern California's courts. I'm certainly not digging out and dusting off old law books, and scanning pages of archaic statutes which have most likely been revised by California's legislature. Interested parties can start by searching 'malicious prosecution' & 'malicious use of process'.

If you wish to believe this is all make believe, and that at the end of the day a director calls,"Cut!", that is your prerogative just as it is mine to believe otherwise. You can go as far with this as you choose, but in the same vein, you have no right to tell me, or anyone else who may believe as I do, that we are wrong either. In the end, we'll all find out if any of us was right. For now, I choose to believe there is a greater & more seriously beneficial underlying purpose to what I believe are valid proceedings than entertainment.

Nefari,

I completely agree that people of any given profession can moonlight as an actor as long as such an activity doesn't interfere (ethically) with their primary profession.

[encino_girl]

I am expecting the evidence recovered on June 29th to be deemed inadmissible since the family had access to the house and bedroom before that evidence was found.  The defense could argue that someone else may have planted it there.

And the defense would have a very valid argument. I agree, it is possible anything recovered post June 25 will be disallowed. Not only is it possible, it's very probable.

[Serenitys_Dream]

I am expecting the evidence recovered on June 29th to be deemed inadmissible since the family had access to the house and bedroom before that evidence was found.  The defense could argue that someone else may have planted it there.

And the defense would have a very valid argument. I agree, it is possible anything recovered post June 25 will be disallowed. Not only is it possible, it's very probable.

Yes, I agree and was aware of that. I am just pointing out the inconstancies between statements given to police, the AR and current testimony. Many of the things regarding the IV were found by E. Fleak on her second visit on June 29th as was all the evidence in the "bag" and the things found in the closet. The scene was not secured even before that so the evidence collected on June 25th may also be deemed inadmissible. They did not declare it a crime scene and secure it until much later.

[encino_girl]

I am expecting the evidence recovered on June 29th to be deemed inadmissible since the family had access to the house and bedroom before that evidence was found.  The defense could argue that someone else may have planted it there.

And the defense would have a very valid argument. I agree, it is possible anything recovered post June 25 will be disallowed. Not only is it possible, it's very probable.

Yes, I agree and was aware of that. I am just pointing out the inconstancies between statements given to police, the AR and current testimony. Many of the things regarding the IV were found by E. Fleak on her second visit on June 29th as was all the evidence in the "bag" and the things found in the closet. The scene was not secured even before that so the evidence collected on June 25th may also be deemed inadmissible. They did not declare it a crime scene and secure it until much later.

This may very well end up being a case where the verdict hinges solely upon which side's witnesses are the most credible; however, barring any surprise entrance by Michael himself, IMO, the prosecution has a winnable case.

[Serenitys_Dream]

@encino_girl

I was reading that if the judge decides that there is enough evidence to go to trial, that a trial date would be set in 6 months to a year from now. Do you know if this is correct?

[encino_girl]

@encino_girl

I was reading that if the judge decides that there is enough evidence to go to trial, that a trial date would be set in 6 months to a year from now. Do you know if this is correct?

That seems about right to me, though depending upon the prosecution's court schedule, and the time it takes the defense to gather all of it's evidence, the time it takes for full discovery, seating a jury, etc., it could be longer. So much for a defendant's 6th Amendment right, huh?

[karen924]

@encino_girl

I was reading that if the judge decides that there is enough evidence to go to trial, that a trial date would be set in 6 months to a year from now. Do you know if this is correct?

That seems about right to me, though depending upon the prosecution's court schedule, and the time it takes the defense to gather all of it's evidence, the time it takes for full discovery, seating a jury, etc., it could be longer. So much for a defendant's 6th Amendment right, huh?

I think most defendants dont want a speedy trial, especially when they are out on bail/bond. If I had to guess I bet it will be longer than 6 months, closer to a year. My husband is working a murder case, not in CA,  but still in the US and the defendant was charged in 2009 and they are going to trial in June of this year.

[michaelsupporter]

6 months......hmmmmm. See you in July!