Michael Jackson Double-Mask

[lraving]

love the white suite  :lol:

I know. He looks so real and attractive! :oops:

[encino_girl]

Souza, I understand your point but my opinion, as strong as yours, is that it is Michael 100% in This Is It and that those specific "doubles" were used for another purpose and that is not to replace Michael or impersonate him to deceive people. For me, it's totally another thing behind all this stuff with the "doubles"

What puzzles me is how you can think it is all Mike in TII. How do you explain the differences in height, bodies, faces and most of all: the movements that are off. It's a genuine question because I really do not understand.I see at least 3 different persons. Mike himself (or else a hell of a double), a short one that is very feminine and small with small shoulders, and a tall one. One moves like MJ and is IMO MJ himself or the best double ever, one is tall and dances great, and one is short and well uhmm...dances not that well. Billie Jean was not Billie Jean at all. I don't think he would change his moves like that. To improve it: yes. But this? No way. The orange pants in The Way You Make Me Feel? No way. I am sure he is very talented and can do a lot, but he can't change his body structure back and forth like that. Even if he would have lost 10 or 20 pounds in a few days, there is no way the width of his shoulders would change that much, simply because you bones don't schrink when you loose weight.

And how do you explain this? No matter how hard I try, I really don't see the same person in these pics.

Michael gave an interview once where he mentioned something about wanting to change up Billie Jean. He said the fans expected, almost demanded that he do the moonwalk at the particular point where he originally did it, so he kept it that way. I would be inclined to believe he would change the Billie Jean routine.

(If I can locate that interview I will for reference).

Also, the second row of pics show a man in two distinctly different positions. In one position, he is standing erect. In the other, he is in a semi squat dance position (classical Michael moves, IMO) thus making him appear shorter than what he is.

As for his moves, Michael was always evolving in his dance. I wouldn't be surprised to see him do things differently, even a little strangely as the newer moves were just that; new and less practiced. Also, consider that he was suffering from back and feet pain (well documented throughout the years) and that may have hindered his movements. He was, after all, 50 years old, too, and he'd not seen a stage (formally) in many, many years. He's definitely not going to move like the Michael of old.

I am just inclined to believe TII was all Michael.

[encino_girl]

Seriously people...

Re: Michael in the white suit.

That was one of the most serious days of his life (beginning of the trial). Do you honestly believe a double would've appeared in court? Look at the interaction between him and the family on that day. It was an interaction of genuine love and unity. No double could 'imitate' that.

[encino_girl]

love the white suite  :lol:

I know. He looks so real and attractive! :oops:

That pic of him in that  white suit just does things to me, lol!!

[all4loveandbelieve]

and by the way, he looks gorgeous in all the photos.

It has become highly disrespectful the whole thing about double obsession. I am so sure that everything about any "double" has totally another meaning and not to REPLACE Michael or impersonate him.

Although I think it is Mike on the pics above as well, I do disagree with your statement. This is it is not all Michael. Different heights, different bodies, different heads etc. But you actually don't even have to look at his face, body or height, because you can tell by his moves and body language if it is him or not. Simply compare it to the Dangerous tour rehearsals. Even though it is just a rehearsal and he isn't by far giving 100%, all his movements are sharp and his typical movements. Saying he couldn't do that due to his age (and I will say again that 50 is far from old) is utter BS in my opinion. Mike danced his whole life and his movements are routine. He has a very unique way of using his body and you don't loose that. I am sure you will still recognize his signature movements. Some of the MJ's in TII simply do not have his typical movements. It also is contradicting since we see him move perfectly fine on Thriller (just to name one). And if it were all him, why would we not HEAR him sing? Why are there no cuts in the audio, but lots of cuts in the video? Why not show the rehearsal as it was? Maybe because some of them simply can't sing?

Besides that, we KNOW he used doubles throughout his carreer. Whether for safety reasons or distraction, but he did use them. There is nothing wrong with that.

Even though I think there is no use in discussing the doubles anymore, because we simply will not know until we hear it from the horse's mouth, I disagree that it is disrespectful to discuss it. I find it more disrespectful to call him old and incapable of dancing.

Not directed at you but in general: what I think is funny is that no one wants to believe TII is full of doubles ("it's all Michael") when IMO that is as obious as it can be, while everyone jumps on the bandwagon about the Cascio tracks on the new album are fake, while in my opinion THAT is all Michael. I think he had expected that his fans would have noticed the doubles in TII, and when they didn't, he created the controversy surrounding the album to see if they would buy it. In my opinion a lot of the fans do not even recognize their idol, but maybe I have the wrong Michael Jackson in mind...

Souza you are absolutely right. 50 is not old. I am 50 yrs old and I do what a 20 yr old can do. I feel it is rediculous that we cannot recognize Mj, You can see it is him. If any one has doubts you can look at the hands and fingernails that you will know it is Michael. And as you stated that michael has a unique  way of moving walking and dancing.  I honestly hope he does not read this post, because I feel like crying when I hear this about an idol that we know over 40 yrs. Blessings

[~Souza~]

Souza, I understand your point but my opinion, as strong as yours, is that it is Michael 100% in This Is It and that those specific "doubles" were used for another purpose and that is not to replace Michael or impersonate him to deceive people. For me, it's totally another thing behind all this stuff with the "doubles"

What puzzles me is how you can think it is all Mike in TII. How do you explain the differences in height, bodies, faces and most of all: the movements that are off. It's a genuine question because I really do not understand.I see at least 3 different persons. Mike himself (or else a hell of a double), a short one that is very feminine and small with small shoulders, and a tall one. One moves like MJ and is IMO MJ himself or the best double ever, one is tall and dances great, and one is short and well uhmm...dances not that well. Billie Jean was not Billie Jean at all. I don't think he would change his moves like that. To improve it: yes. But this? No way. The orange pants in The Way You Make Me Feel? No way. I am sure he is very talented and can do a lot, but he can't change his body structure back and forth like that. Even if he would have lost 10 or 20 pounds in a few days, there is no way the width of his shoulders would change that much, simply because you bones don't schrink when you loose weight.

And how do you explain this? No matter how hard I try, I really don't see the same person in these pics.

Michael gave an interview once where he mentioned something about wanting to change up Billie Jean. He said the fans expected, almost demanded that he do the moonwalk at the particular point where he originally did it, so he kept it that way. I would be inclined to believe he would change the Billie Jean routine.

(If I can locate that interview I will for reference).

Also, the second row of pics show a man in two distinctly different positions. In one position, he is standing erect. In the other, he is in a semi squat dance position (classical Michael moves, IMO) thus making him appear shorter than what he is.

As for his moves, Michael was always evolving in his dance. I wouldn't be surprised to see him do things differently, even a little strangely as the newer moves were just that; new and less practiced. Also, consider that he was suffering from back and feet pain (well documented throughout the years) and that may have hindered his movements. He was, after all, 50 years old, too, and he'd not seen a stage (formally) in many, many years. He's definitely not going to move like the Michael of old.

I am just inclined to believe TII was all Michael.

I disagree on every point you make. As I said, IF he would change his Billie Jean choreography, he would improve it, not do something like this. It's not MJ, it's not fresh and new, it's not innovating, so my conclusion is: not MJ.

I am not talking about the length of the legs, but the shape. Straight thighs againdt round ones. The faces simply are not the same either. Ears, eyes, shape of head and mouth all differ. Angles do can make you look a little different, but not like this.

As for the back and feet pains... Why don't we see him struggle with some other dances? Why does that look smooth?

And please, 50 is not old. I have friends and colleagues that age and some are fitter than I am. Michael is a born dancer and not being on stage does not mean not dancing. Not competing with my horse does not mean I don't ride. We also have the rehearsal with Travis, were he is sharp as a razor. I have a slow internet connection, so I can't check the YouTube now, but maybe someone else can post it.

I do believe Michael would come up with new moves, but I am sure they would be new and great. This definitely wasn't. And those shades are ridiculous. You can see it even bothers him because he keeps touching them. Why would Michael Jackson need shades on a rehearsal? Where has he ever worn shades on stage, besides some intros?

Michael being 50 doesn't mean old and cripple. Why do so many people rather believe he was old and unable to move his body, instead of him being in control. And I think he still got his moves, why wouldn't he?

[MissG]

[/quote]

"Left" Michael is different than "right" Michael.

The weight is not only the difference, also the bone structure of the skull.

To me, "right" Michael is our Michael.

Also, Michael has a tendency to have his feet a little open. Left Michael is standing straight.

Those two are not the same or the pics are being manipulated to show a different Michael.

[AnaMarcia]

It is not possible that people still have doubts about the use of doubles in TII.
 In times when it is really Michael, he appears beautiful, charming and moving quite well.
 For me, it was not him at times like Billie Jean and Man in the mirror, ie it was not Michael who finished the movie and this really worries me.
 In IJCSLY and Human Nature, nobody will convince me it was Michael. If someone could compare these pictures with others in moments like: Stop! The love save, Thriller, Black or White and Earth Song ... would be a clearer differences.
 I agree with Souza, there are more than double in TII!

[Tarja]

Well, Souza... it would be huge to write down why I say it is all Michael in TII. I'll try to make a long story short. Look at the details: hands- especially fingers. Go look up a HQ photo of Michael from 2007, 2008, whatever you want, and compare every single inch, every detail. He doesn't have usual hands, his hands can be very easy spotted because they are different. Different- in the meaning that he bends his phalanx in a different way than the majority of people do. Second, the height, as you say, in your opinion is different. As a photo editor, working in this field since 10 years, I tell you that my trained eye says that all you see it's optical illusion (maybe really made on purpose), because of the different clothing and different filming angles. Also when he wears the orange pants, he has a long T-shirt over his trousers, while for instance in TDCAU he has his shirt in his trousers - trick often used for those who are short because this way they look taller- also another trick is high waist on trousers. Michael, because he is already tall enough, the shirt wore in the trousers make him look even taller. Also, dark colors make you look taller. You just showed me two photos: one when he stands straight and the other while he has his knees bend - don't you see the optical illusion?

You say that he changed the choreography at BJ. Wouldn't he do that, why? Why you think he wouldn't change the choreography? In my opinion TII is a huge controversy and made up to provoke controversy- therefore he could very well change the choreography the way he wants. Again, go on the Blu-ray DVD and take a look closer at his fingers.  You say that he moved differently. Does this prove it is not Michael? TII is made on purpose and I think we all realize it so far, why wouldn’t he put a different stamp on it? Why wouldn’t he change, why wouldn’t he behave differently if the whole thing is mind-blowing at every stage? Why wouldn’t he, if TII is the biggest controversy, the thing that raised the biggest confusion: is him isn’t him, he moves like him but he doesn’t at the same time, he looks like him but he doesn’t. Why to jump on the easiest conclusion: double. Why not dig it deeper and see what lies behind all this?

Third, show me exactly where you think he used "doubles" through his career. I've heard thousands of theories made up though time : that he used a double during the whole dangerous tour, that he died in the Pepsi accident and they provided us a double since then, that he sent a double to the trial in 2005, and many others, one more unbelievable than the other. Why? Based on what? I know Michael since I was 5, it’s been a lifetime and I can’t be blinded when my eyes and reason tell me other things. I can’t fool myself and I won’t.  He used doubles? Yes, in the Pepsi advertisements, when he had to jump on the top of the buildings – those are double stunts, for dangerous things, yes, he used a double in the filming of smooth criminal in TII – stairs scene and jumping though window.
I thought this problem since very, very long time ago and what I managed to take out of this is that “doubles”   would have been probably used as entertainers of the public. Doubles would have been used as they were at Super Bowl 1993, something of this kind- but everyone would know it. Doubles used but not to replace Michael or deceive people to make them think it is Michael when it actually isn’t.

I’m not trying to convince anybody, I just say all this because you asked me to.

[~Souza~]

Tarja, you completely ignored the most obvious points I made, which makes me think this is a useless discussion. You do not KNOW MJ since you were 5, you know who he is. Something completely different.

You can come up with tricks and lighting and angles, but it's not convincing at all. The pics I posted are from 2 completely different persons. If you think they are both Michael, then fine by me, but in that case I will stop the discussion. I have stated my opinion about this numerous time and no one ever made valid points as to how he could transform that much in a few days/weeks. And that's only logic, since it is impossible.

And yes, Michael used doubles. Also during the trial where he went in through the back, while a double was distrating the audience in the front. Can you just try to imagine his position back then? Even though most people were there to support him, I am sure je didn't always feel like walking past the crowds. He has been through hell and back.

And there are more examples, b ut if you are interested in them, please do a searchj on the forum, because I am not going to discuss it further. To me it's obvious, you apparently see the same MJ throughout TII. I will never understand that, and maybe you will never see what I see, so let's agree to disagree, because I have had this discussion way to many times and it's really not important enough for me to sweat over it.

[Lemonbread904]

I think this is something that Michael like.  He always want his fan to question everything and do not believe everything at face value.  I think now we are opening our eyes more to the world itself. To not believe everything that is handled to us.  I am also very cautious when there are many statements are there saying what will do and what he won't do. We as fans cannot know for sure what he would or would not do. I think that we should take it with a grain of salt.  Remember what was it that made us feel a certain way about a certain situation that involved Michael . We all have to remember that he is the MASTER OF DISGUISE. I think that the only thing that we could do is give our honest opinion on things.  I notice in many of those pictures that he wore a lot of medals. Is there any way we can find what the medals are and if you take a look at him in the white suite you will see that on the right sleeve on the biscep area crest.  Is it also possible to find out what type that crest is.

[encino_girl]

Well, Souza... it would be huge to write down why I say it is all Michael in TII. I'll try to make a long story short. Look at the details: hands- especially fingers. Go look up a HQ photo of Michael from 2007, 2008, whatever you want, and compare every single inch, every detail. He doesn't have usual hands, his hands can be very easy spotted because they are different. Different- in the meaning that he bends his phalanx in a different way than the majority of people do. Second, the height, as you say, in your opinion is different. As a photo editor, working in this field since 10 years, I tell you that my trained eye says that all you see it's optical illusion (maybe really made on purpose), because of the different clothing and different filming angles. Also when he wears the orange pants, he has a long T-shirt over his trousers, while for instance in TDCAU he has his shirt in his trousers - trick often used for those who are short because this way they look taller- also another trick is high waist on trousers. Michael, because he is already tall enough, the shirt wore in the trousers make him look even taller. Also, dark colors make you look taller. You just showed me two photos: one when he stands straight and the other while he has his knees bend - don't you see the optical illusion?

You say that he changed the choreography at BJ. Wouldn't he do that, why? Why you think he wouldn't change the choreography? In my opinion TII is a huge controversy and made up to provoke controversy- therefore he could very well change the choreography the way he wants. Again, go on the Blu-ray DVD and take a look closer at his fingers.  You say that he moved differently. Does this prove it is not Michael? TII is made on purpose and I think we all realize it so far, why wouldn’t he put a different stamp on it? Why wouldn’t he change, why wouldn’t he behave differently if the whole thing is mind-blowing at every stage? Why wouldn’t he, if TII is the biggest controversy, the thing that raised the biggest confusion: is him isn’t him, he moves like him but he doesn’t at the same time, he looks like him but he doesn’t. Why to jump on the easiest conclusion: double. Why not dig it deeper and see what lies behind all this?

Third, show me exactly where you think he used "doubles" through his career. I've heard thousands of theories made up though time : that he used a double during the whole dangerous tour, that he died in the Pepsi accident and they provided us a double since then, that he sent a double to the trial in 2005, and many others, one more unbelievable than the other. Why? Based on what? I know Michael since I was 5, it’s been a lifetime and I can’t be blinded when my eyes and reason tell me other things. I can’t fool myself and I won’t.  He used doubles? Yes, in the Pepsi advertisements, when he had to jump on the top of the buildings – those are double stunts, for dangerous things, yes, he used a double in the filming of smooth criminal in TII – stairs scene and jumping though window.
I thought this problem since very, very long time ago and what I managed to take out of this is that “doubles”   would have been probably used as entertainers of the public. Doubles would have been used as they were at Super Bowl 1993, something of this kind- but everyone would know it. Doubles used but not to replace Michael or deceive people to make them think it is Michael when it actually isn’t.

I’m not trying to convince anybody, I just say all this because you asked me to.

That's one of the most rational presentations I've seen on this forum.

Excellently said.

Honestly, there weren't that many drastic changes in Michael during the filing of TII. In all actuality, it is highly illogical to suggest there were. The changes that are visible can be (rationally) explained, and you've done that well.

[Le Papillon Bleu]

THIS Michael is fake!

I agree that it's just skin. I have never understood where people saw a mask. I think I see what is meant now, but that's indeed his shirt. I also think that he has created an illusion that is called Michael Jackson the last 20 years. Wearing heavy make-up that made his nose look way more narrow than it really was, to appear later with the nose as we have seen in the BAD era. I said before that I don't think he changed as much as he made us believe. At some of the pictures of the last decade where he doesn't wear that heavy make-up, you can see he still looks like himself, while some pictures make you go 'who the f*ck is that?'.

I am curious though why you think that it's not him on the bottom picture in the white suit?

I so much agree with Souza about this...just look at the close-up photos of his face...the nose looks so normal !:it's those lines of makeup (like look-a-like's do)that make  the illusion of "pointed" nose. I really believe him when he said he had 2 or 3 surgeries on the face.

[encino_girl]

Are some here really suggesting this isn't Michael Jackson?  Same white suit, same day...Different lighting, facial expressions, 'poses', etc., but it is most definitely Michael...

[~Souza~]

Are some here really suggesting this isn't Michael Jackson?  Same white suit, same day...Different lighting, facial expressions, 'poses', etc., but it is most definitely Michael...

Just one person suggested that, please scroll up.