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[mjj_fan]

@ PJ4MJ  Thankyou for your appreciation ,you are very kind ,by the way you dont need to google and search for any medical terminology  forever ,you can have my email address i try to help you as much as i could , Godbless you

[mjj29081958]

@ mj2981958  why did you underline those 3 paragraphs ? did someone ask you those question  just wondering but in anycase you might have read all the links i mention above , if the puncture wounds were by i.v lines i dont think dorsum of foot specially  a site between big toe and second digit make sense , like i said earlier , its a very poor decision on anyones part to have cannula at or near joint , plus the importance of venous cut down or CVP lines comes when patient is collapsed by dehydration or  whatever reason plus  with no superficial  veins  , uum  venous cut down comes first Cvp only done by physicians ,in  in- hospital settings and in complicated cases

Lol! What a mess!  :D

Look, I was interested on why did Murray choose Michael's leg to start an I.V line, since the upper limbs are the most common site to do it. Before make my questions, I needed to know this:

For anyone who can clear this up to me (it may sound stupid):

Can patients keep on their activities (work or whatever) while a Peripheral Venous Acces remains into the veins (when it is not in use) for some time, or do you need to start a new acces every time you're gonna give IV therapy?

Thanks guys!

You replied me this:

@mj 2981958
not silly but it was a very important question , the i.v catheters  should be changed every 3rd day and urinary  catheters every week
with i.v more than 3 days the chances of having bacterial endocarditis that is infection affecting heart valves increases significantly besides the condition called thrombophelbitis occurs

Then I made my questions, guessing why did Murray such a thing. I could only think in these 3 options:

Thanks for answer!

I asked you that because I was trying to figure out why would Murray choose to put a line in the leg instead in the arm, since the last is the common place so far, right?
Well, he said he gave Michael Propofol for 6 wks.

My thoughts are:

- If you can leave the I.V in "Stand by" into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn't be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.

- If you can't leave the catheter, to keep hidden not the line but the punctures. They would've been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.

- He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? I mean, does it exist?

Your reply was:

Hi mj2981958
He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on medial left leg??? i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him... silly person should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform with them in place ??? , as i mention very earlier in one of my post and i m writting it down one more time , its very painful to pull out and put the catheter everyday , so they are left for maximum of 3 days , while they are still in your vessels one cant even lift up his limb dancing is out of question besides everytime you prick a vessel it collapse and that site is no longer feasible to draw the blood even
i have seen drug abusers with multiple punctute marks on arm . neck and legs less often but dorsum of the foot specially between the big toe and digits .... well in my practice i have never seen them may be someone else encounter a patient with wounds in that area

And this one:

@mj298195 8
about dehydration all the vessels collapse no matter upper or lower limb , you are left with 2 choices then , either insert catheter in larger vessels or go for venous cut down where a minor surgical incision is given to expose saphenous vein and i.v line is maintained
you seem to have good medical knowledge i appreciate that , but i guess if you read my previous posts you will get your answers we discuss various issues in the link below,i thank everyone for it specially a dear friend of mine, lisap27

http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... f=17&t=156

like i said earlier i cant visit here daily ,but you can pm me and have my email address i will try to clear your doubts as much as i could , Godbless

So, from both of your responses, and after reading the links you provide me, I got the answers to my 3 previous questions, and reach my conclusion:

Ok, I got it. Thanks!
So, to answer the previous questions on why Murray would have choose to put the I.V line in Michael's lower limb:

-" He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? "

Nop, If he would've been dehydrated at the point of having his veins collapsed, such procedure is difficult no matter what limbs you choose to catheterize.

-" If you can leave the I.V in "Stand by" into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn't be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg."

Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).

-" If you can't leave the catheter, you put the line in the leg to keep hidden not the line, but the punctures. They would've been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing."

Possible, yet put-on/remove-off the catheter on a daily basis is very painful for the patient and you need to find a new place/vassel to catheterize each time (in this case, every night).

So after your answers I assume that Dr. Murray wanted to keep the punctures hidden, or he had to start with the lower limbs veins because he already used the veins of his upper limbs. Any other ideas?

^ I re-posted my 3 questions, now with the answers I got after reading your stuff, to avoid misunderstandings... But aparently I misunderstood the info, so LadyMedic corrected me (thank you!):

-" If you can leave the I.V in "Stand by" into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn't be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg."

Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).

IVs should never ever be too painful to move. If I put an IV in an AC, the patient can move their arm all they want with no pain. And if someone puts an IV in my AC, the same applies. I've had numerous IVs and given hundreds more. They should never be painful upon movement.

Anyway, I wanted to clarify that in these old thread mjj_fan gave me the link, people were saying that I.V are very, very painful. But I dunno, because I never had one of these into my veins, so I was honestly asking  :D

And that's all. I hope it's clear now.

Thank you all for clear this up for me, and you can blame me and my english for any confusion!  :?  :D

[loma]

@ loma i mention above there is nothing as arthritis of FINGER NAILS ,i think someone misguided the person who made the original post

:lol: Yes.
There cannot be arthritis in your fingernails, since there are no joints that can be affected.
I think the original poster confused it with the discoloration.

[mjj_fan]

@mj2981958  im glad  finally you got my point ,communication gap is  to blame not your english its perfect , dont worry   :)

Somewhere I think we should appreciate the original author for the time and effort she put in here believe me reading all 50 plus pages and then interpretation of medical terminology is not an easy task for a  lay man , Its really bad  some body misguided her and thats how i felt the need to clear misunderstanding so that everyone should know the facts , just like fews days back i was truely disguisted  by an author writing  a book exclusively on the drugs  found in Micheal  body  during autopsy ,Im sure he must have made alot of money  what he sold half truth ? will he ever confess of not doing a thorough research  before making something available to public , so sad ...please dont waste your precious time and  money reading rubbish

By keeping an open mind  to any possibilty , there is a chance of with -holding certain information for the court trails thats why few things still missing  in this report , it just my personal opinion ,at the end of the day its up to everyone to decide what they  believe
Im hoping  someone from the media reading  my post, will  write about Dr Klein and Murray lies instead of dissecting his personal life ,  I clearly remember dr Klein said about  an open I.v line at TMZ live during his first interview, post 25th june , and there wasnt anything mention in this  report , if someone would do it, that day i will feel my efforts didnt go in vain ! they can take the credit for it   i dont mind ,but please stop writing and misleading others,  Take care members , Godbless you all

[Hazzely]

This is bugging me.

Let's say Murray injected propofol to "Michael" and it had a bad reaction due to the amount of drugs he was given during the night...propofol acts in less than a minute...
I'm not a medic but I can 100% say it  IS NOT POSSIBLE to have a heart attack and still have pulse and breath after 47 MINUTES!

[mjj_fan]

Heart attack is different from Cardiac arrest ,  as propofol leads to  cardiac arrest and respiratory depression  ,  so i assume you mean  cardiac arrest ...with heart attack,  people do have  pulse and spontaneous  respiratory efforts but cardiac arrest is defined as no pulse no breathing and lose of consciousness , its different from coma too
The media broke news , Micheal was in coma later on he suffers cardiac arrest and then ....

[Hazzely]

Heart attack is different from Cardiac arrest ,  i think  you mean cardiac arrest  because propofol leads to  cardiac arrest and respiratory depression  , with heart attack,  people do have  pulse and  respiratory efforts but cardiac arrest is defined as no pulse no breathing and lose of consciousness , its different from coma too
The media broke news , Micheal was in coma later on he suffers cardiac arrest and then ....

They said he was in cardiac arrest, but Murray was away from Michael for 47' .. How can someone be in a coma for 47 minutes and still have pulse and breath without medical assistance? ...

[mjj_fan]

The heart has an internal electrical system that controls the rhythm of the heartbeat. Problems can cause abnormal heart rhythms, called arrhythmias. There are many types. During an arrhythmia, the heart can beat too fast, too slow, or it can stop beating. Sudden cardiac arrest occurs when the heart develops an arrhythmia that causes it to stop beating. This is different than a heart attack, where the heart usually continues to beat but blood flow to the heart is blocked.

There are many possible causes of cardiac arrest. They include coronary heart disease, heart attack, electrocution, drowning, or choking. There may not be a known cause to the cardiac arrest.

Without medical attention, the person will die within a few minutes. People are less likely to die if they have early cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and defibrillation. Defibrillation is delivering an electric shock to restore the heart rhythm to normal. he need an urgent " effective " CPR and call for help unlike 47 delay , compression on beds with one hand beneath  and other on chest  by the person doing it for the very first time ..... sigh

Coma is totally a different identity , there are 4 grades of coma , but not going in to detail let me tell you  its simply means lack of consciousness

[Hazzely]

The heart has an internal electrical system that controls the rhythm of the heartbeat. Problems can cause abnormal heart rhythms, called arrhythmias. There are many types. During an arrhythmia, the heart can beat too fast, too slow, or it can stop beating. Sudden cardiac arrest occurs when the heart develops an arrhythmia that causes it to stop beating. This is different than a heart attack, where the heart usually continues to beat but blood flow to the heart is blocked.

There are many possible causes of cardiac arrest. They include coronary heart disease, heart attack, electrocution, drowning, or choking. There may not be a known cause to the cardiac arrest.

Without medical attention, the person will die within a few minutes. People are less likely to die if they have early cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) and defibrillation. Defibrillation is delivering an electric shock to restore the heart rhythm to normal. he need an urgent " effective " CPR and call for help unlike 47 delay , compression on beds with one hand beneath  and other on chest  by the person doing it for the very first time ..... sigh

Coma is totally a different identity , there are 4 grades of coma , but not going in to detail let me tell you  its simply means lack of consciousness

Well I know it is different but that's why he entered in a coma, because he didn't receive any medical assistance. For everyone else who is not familiar with these terms:

A cardiac arrest is different from (but may be caused by) a heart attack, where blood flow to the muscle of the heart is impaired.
Arrested blood circulation prevents delivery of oxygen to the body. Lack of oxygen to the brain causes loss of consciousness, which then results in abnormal or absent breathing. Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
Cardiac arrest is a medical emergency that, in certain situations is potentially reversible if treated early.

Chain of survival
Several organisations promote the idea of a "chain of survival" The links are:

Early recognition - If possible, recognition of illness before the patient develops a cardiac arrest will allow the rescuer to prevent its occurrence. Early recognition that a cardiac arrest has occurred is key to survival - for every minute a patient is in cardiac arrest, their chances of survival drop by roughly 10%.
Early CPR - improves blood and oxygen flow to vital organs and an essential component of treating a cardiac arrest. In particular, by keeping the brain supplied with oxygenated blood, chances of neurological damage are decreased.
Early defibrillation - is effective for the management of ventricular fibrillation and pulseless ventricular tachycardia If defibrillation is delayed the rhythm is likely to degenerate into asystole for which outcomes are worse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest

So I don't know how could he still have pulse after 47 minutes .......

Also I found this information:

Ventilation
Tracheal intubation has not been found to improve survival rates in cardiac arrest cases. A 2009 study has found that assisted ventilation may worsen outcomes over placement of an oral airway with passive oxygen delivery.         ......

[mjj_fan]

didnt they say he was in coma then suffers  cardiac arrest prior to death ?  what i know dr murray found him unconscious with faint femoral pulse and shallow breathing  which means he was in coma , the drugs he was given  that day depress the respiratory centre , and blood presssure drops too , hence the weak pulse (low bp is one of cause of weak pulse )
those who slip into coma  have  pulse and normal breathing  drive , with cardiac arrest  the first sign is loss of consciousness  followed by  no pulse no breathing

[Hazzely]

didnt they say he was in coma then suffers  cardiac arrest prior to death ?  what i know dr murray found him unconscious with faint femoral pulse and shallow breathing  which means he was in coma , the drugs he was given depress the respiratory centre , and blood presssure drops too
those who slip into coma  have  pulse and normal breathing  drive , with cardiac arrest  the first sign is loss of consciousness  followed by  no pulse no breathing

Michael Jackson Cardiac Arrest and Die
by Teh Obenks on Jun.26, 2009, under Celebrities

Michael Jackson is dead? How Did Michael Jackson Die? Well, after suffering a cardiac arrest, the King of Pop went under a deep coma and later on declared dead by the staff hospital. The death of Michael Jackson.

Pop star Michael Jackson has died at age 50 after suffering a cardiac arrest, according to media reports.
Los Angeles TV station KTLA reports that Los Angeles fire officials said they responded to a 911 call at Jackson's home and that Jackson wasn't breathing when they arrived; paramedics performed CPR and rushed him to UCLA Medical Center, although the hospital, due to privacy rules, could not confirm that.
In a cardiac arrest, the heart stops working properly. A cardiac arrest is not the same as a heart attack, but it can happen because of a heart attack, notes Douglas Zipes, MD, MACC, distinguished professor at Indiana University School of Medicine and past president of the American College of Cardiology.
Zipes explains that "cardiac arrest is a heart rhythm disturbance when the bottom chamber of the heart, the ventricles, beat an at extremely rapid rate — 4 to 600 times a minute."
Zipes says that heart rhythm "prevents that bottom chamber from effective contraction and pumping blood to the brain and to the rest of the body, and death results if it's not reversed within four or five minutes, generally."

[LadyMedic]

I'm hoping to clarify this whole cardiac arrest vs. heart attack vs. what allegedly happened to MJ.

As mjj_fan stated, a heart attack and cardiac arrest are entire different. You can even have a heart attack and not even know it and you'll just continue on with your life. MJ did NOT have a heart attack.

Now, the timeline for when MJ apparently died to when Murray walked in the room is still essentially undetermined. Murray claims there was a pulse. Do I believe this? Not for a gosh darn second. Ultimately, when the paramedics arrived, he has no pulse and remained with no pulse throughout their time with him. At UCLA, staff acheived a wide, slow ventricular rhythm. This did NOT mean the heart was capable to sustaining life. This was the result of a copious amount of medications that are given to cardiac arrests. At that point, regardless of ROSC, the outcome is almost entirely inevitable that the pt will die considering the delayed CPR, no defibrillation, and bizzare timeline.

with cardiac arrest the first sign is loss of consciousness followed by no pulse no breathing

No. With cardiac arrest, no pulse is the first sign. LOC is just LOC, no breathing is respiratory arrest, and no pulse is cardiac arrest.

Edit because my quote didn't quote right.

[mjj_fan]

Sudden cardiac arrest symptoms are sudden and drastic:

1.Sudden collapse
2.No pulse
3.No breathing
4.Loss of consciousness
Sometimes, other signs and symptoms precede sudden cardiac arrest. These may include fatigue, fainting, blackouts, dizziness, chest pain, shortness of breath, palpitations or vomiting. But sudden cardiac arrest often occurs with no warning.

let me clear loss of consciousness (LOC) simply doesnt mean  loss of consciousness, there are many reasons and many signs follow it  ,  cardiac arrest patient  USUALLY loses consciousness first than absent pulse and breathing  other signs  , respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest CAN occur together in clinical practice its hard to distinguish what happen first thats why a general term CARDIOPULMONARY arrest is used

[LadyMedic]

Sudden cardiac arrest symptoms are sudden and drastic:

1.Sudden collapse
2.No pulse
3.No breathing
4.Loss of consciousness
Sometimes, other signs and symptoms precede sudden cardiac arrest. These may include fatigue, fainting, blackouts, dizziness, chest pain, shortness of breath, palpitations or vomiting. But sudden cardiac arrest often occurs with no warning.

let me clear loss of consciousness (LOC) simply doesnt mean  loss of consciousness, there are many reasons and many signs follow it  ,  cardiac arrest patient  USUALLY loses consciousness first than absent pulse and breathing  other signs  , respiratory arrest and cardiac arrest CAN occur together in clinical practice its hard to distinguish what happen first thats why a general term CARDIOPULMONARY arrest is used

y

Dead people cannot breath. If you don't have a pulse, you're not breathing. Cardiac=heart arrest=stop. There's no other way around it. Respiratory and cardiac arrest are different. Cardiac arrest is death, respiratory arrest is not death, just no breathing but with a pulse. "Cardiopulmonary Arrest" is not a common term and I personally have never heard anyone use it. However, cardiopulmonary arrest is the same thing as cardiac arrest.

[mjj_fan]

absent pulse doesnt  always mean a person is dead , there are many conditions  with absent pulse like  aortitis ,  atheroma , coarctation of arota , emboli ,takayasu  disease,polyarteritis nodosa,giant cell disease , improper technique to feel the pulse , weak pulse sometimes cannot be felt at all , apparently   the patient is still breathing with no palpable pulse,but yes if heart stop beating then there would be no pulse and eventually  breathing stops  person would die , why i said loss of consciousness first because once heart  fails to  pump blood , the respiratory centres detect as body running out of oxygen, patient would take deep breath and  black outs ,followed by heart stop pumping blood , respiratory rate increases and finally apnea results with no breathing at all

in Michael case if he was breathing with no pulse i doubt he had too weak pulses detectable at  that moment by low blood pressure as result of  lethal  propofol doses

its a huge responsibilty to declare someone dead there are critaria set for more than 7 signs for its diagnosis and thats why only  physician certify death after confirmation

here is a link for those interested to read

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... YNOVeUiNug

https://myweb.in.gov/ISDH/IDRSThin/inth ... ndbook.pdf

respiratory arrest  if left untreated within a minute or so, a patient whose breathing has ceased will enter into cardiac arrest. Within a a few more minutes, they will begin to sustain irreversible brain damage. In order to prevent this, it is of the utmost importance that patients in respiratory arrest be diagnosed and treated as quickly as possible. patient with pulse and apnea die if left untreated , in agonal respiration its shallow breathing with no pulse both condition are deadly with the latter having high mortality .but still person is alive for few minutes

about cardio pulmonary arrest here you can read in detail and from this  authentic  medical site ,which i always ask other members to do , read only authentic medical articles on internet,

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/757257-overview

the second one about cardiopulmonary arrest during pregnancy , these terms do exist thats why i said cardiac arrest and respiratory arrest sometimes occur to gether or follows eachother a gerenal term cardio-pulmonary arrest is used by doctors  take a look
http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... /103/3/406