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136
References & Similarities / Re: Importance
« on: April 02, 2011, 07:43:32 PM »
Quote from: "son"
I would rank the clues like this (in my opinion):
High
This is it, MJ's own statments, [s:1nzsb61d]Joe vs Jospeh[/s:1nzsb61d], Fated, the Body

@ Scorpionchik

Personally, I think the strongest most important pieces of evidence comes from MJ's statements itself, however the Joe vs Joseph thing works for me because I think some one died in MJ's place. It does seem pretty sketchy and not objective enough as a clue so it will be demoted to mid tier.

@ Voiceforthesilent

I agree, if MJ was actually in the ambulance it would be a "blow" to the hoax theory (and making things more complicated) :|

Personally I think Fated is the "Holy grail" of the hoax death theory, unless it's come out already. I'm predicting it will give it all away.

Quote from: "son"
Mid
Slip ups, inconsistent stories, Joe vs Joseph, Themes: Liberian girl, etc.

A slip up can mean anything... however when they begin to add up in a given context... ;) Same thing for the themes.

Quote from: "son"
Low
Hoax references in other media, Elvis/Tupac/Paul McCartney comparisons

As much as I enjoy the Elvis comparison I don't think it's essential to the hoax theory at all, it's fun yet excessive.

137
References & Similarities / Importance
« on: April 02, 2011, 02:58:10 PM »
Within the hoax death theory what clues would you say are the most foundational? Of course there isn't one single piece of evidence that that supports the hoax death theory but rather they all work together like a network. But do you think there are certain clues that would cause the hoax theory to fall (or at least become more flimsy) apart if it was debunked?

I would rank the clues like this (in my opinion):
High
This is it, MJ's own statments, Joe vs Jospeh, Fated

Mid
Slip ups, inconsistent stories, Themes: Liberian girl, etc.

Low
Hoax references in other media, Elvis/Tupac/Paul McCartney comparisons

138
References & Similarities / Re: It's also possible that...
« on: March 28, 2011, 08:29:56 AM »
Quote from: "Cameron"
Michael never coming back ? And send an innocent to jail ?
There are a lot of clues showing that he has to coming back and that he is.

Who's to say conrad murray isn't a "willing Martyr for Mj's cause?" Or, as I believe, he is a murderer but he didn't kill MJ but rather one of his doubles.

139
Hoax Videos / Re: Michael Jackson hoax! Faked funeral!
« on: March 25, 2011, 08:17:42 AM »
He seems to place Michael Jackson as the deceptive "villian" of the situation... :?:  :?:  :|
Interesting to say the least...

140
Coherent Theories ~ Connect the dots / Re: Theory vs. Theory
« on: March 24, 2011, 07:11:24 AM »
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Quote from: "son"
Another catagory to think about:

No body vs Replacement body

Did someone die in MJ's place or is there no dead body?

I think if the paramedics are in it...then no body, but if they aren't I think there is a body.

So which do you think is more likely?

141
Coherent Theories ~ Connect the dots / Re: Theory vs. Theory
« on: March 22, 2011, 05:22:35 PM »
Another catagory to think about:

No body vs Replacement body

Did someone die in MJ's place or is there no dead body?

142
Coherent Theories ~ Connect the dots / Re: Theory vs. Theory
« on: March 22, 2011, 05:14:45 PM »
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Why do you think Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga or Tohme Thome may be in it?

A lot of people, especially the illuminati believers, have strong opinions (positive and negative of Lady Gaga and Bieber. Mostly because they are compared to MJ a lot since his "passing". Someone recently made a video about Lady Gaga and MJ being "allies". Tohme Tohme was someone MJ was allegedly afraid of, and Jermaine introduced them. I'll list my personal opinions later though...

143
Coherent Theories ~ Connect the dots / Re: Theory vs. Theory
« on: March 21, 2011, 06:55:25 PM »
Ally (on his side), Pawn (unknowingly on his side or against him), Enemy (against him), Double agent (both) or Neutral (neither)

Many theories vary on who is on MJ's "side" in the hoax and who isn't. This the spirit of theory vs theory I thought this topic might be appropriate. I'll list a few "players" in the hoax death theory and everyone will decide where they think they should be ranked. If I miss some one of importance let me know. I'll post my opinions later.

Conrad Murray
John Branca
Frank Delio
Randy Phillips
Kenny Ortega
Oprah Winfrey
Jermaine Jackson
LaToya Jackson
(other siblings)
Justin Bieber
Lady Gaga
Teddy Riley
Tohme Tohme
Sony
Joe Jackson
Kathrine Jackson
The Casicos
Barack Obama
LAPD
LA coroner's office
Arnold Klein
Harvey and TMZ

144
Coherent Theories ~ Connect the dots / Re: Theory vs. Theory
« on: February 22, 2011, 10:08:42 PM »
Sorry, I have school.  :| But I'll post my own opinion before I go to bed.

Chessmaster
Michael Jackson is in control of virtually all aspects of the hoax. All clues are placed there by MJ himself that those who are loyal to him can see them. There are no coincidences. In this case MJ faked his death for the fans to wake up and see whats going on in the world. In this theory MJ isn't really working with too many others to accomplish the hoax; some people know more than others (presumably) and were possibly given certain instructions (pre and post "mortem"). This is also an intentional vindication process.

*Illuminati escape/NWO

*Movie Theory

Vacation/Retirement
Michael is just going with the flow, he possibly allowed for a few messages to go out to the fans but this hoax isn't any major organized event. Some clues may just be coincidences. Michael faked his death for himself. Michael is "enjoying the show" (or has taken a break from the world) as the hoax has unfolded. He's possibly spent some time recovering from the medical issues he really had.

*Retirement

*Witness protection program

*Recovery

....................................................................................................................................

A lot of researchers look at those theories and some how combine the two when they are arguably incompatible. I don't think Michael can be an active chessmaster as well as a part of the Witness Protection Program, or simply retired. Considering the evidence of the hoax we do have, we generally assume that there are clues intentionally designed to bring evidence to the hoax. If Michael were just trying to rest/retire, I think it would be illogical to  make public that he might be alive.


Ultimately I think the chessmaster theory holds more ground, in that Michael seems to have a plan/message in mind.

145
Coherent Theories ~ Connect the dots / Theory vs. Theory
« on: February 16, 2011, 04:20:50 PM »
I haven't posted in some time. Taking an idea from my religious studies class, we could attempt to compare an contrast certain inconsistencies within the hoax death theory. After which we possibly can come up with a single strong plausible theory. For example comparing the active chessmaster (director) theory with the vacation (recovery) theory. Or the short notice hoax theory, vs. the long-time plan theory. And of course the comback theory vs. the not coming back theory. I'll try to provide more later on...

146
Hoax Pictures / Re: WHO DIED JUNE 25?
« on: December 10, 2010, 09:40:48 AM »
Quote from: "Tarja"
Quote from: "AgentBJ"
Quote from: "Tarja"
Quote from: "mjjamm"
We all know the famous hospital pic, but was it really fake? The first picture is a double coming out of the doctors, the 2nd one is the hospital picture, and the 3rd one is Michael Please go to this larger more define picture as well         You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login





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in the first photo that man is not a double, that man is actually Michael fucking Jackson. When people will get rid of the veil they have on their eyes? Doubles are absolutelly IMPOSSIBLE to look the SAME as the real man no matter how many surgeries they have. Not on this world, not on this planet. period

Yes...even O2-guy looks not the same like Michael.


read again what I said.. I said totally the opposite you understood. I say that this man from the photos is Michael jackson and not a double.

Also there's no O2 guy. the "O2 guy" is Michael Jackson

What she got can be interpreted from what you said, if you don't think "O2 guy" and MJ look alike.

147
Hoax Videos / Re: Michael Jackson is Alive: The Sherlock Holmes Connection
« on: December 10, 2010, 09:30:37 AM »
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
chapped lips ALIVE  :lol: Fans imagination does not have a border. Genious. But who put that picture ? Sony? So, is Sony in hoax or MJ's enemy? I am confused here. So many different interpretation. Thediffirence wSherlock Holmes is that we have autopsy report from Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran, M.D.,Chief Medical Examiner . We need to find out who's autopsy is it, could Michael bribe Lakshamanan to write fake report or Lakshamanan did not recognize  Michael ?  
 
 .

The way I've always understood it is that someone did die (whose legal name was possibly Michael Joseph Jackson) in the real MJ's place. 1. we never saw the body, 2. the paramedics didn't recognize him (even "some old white man" with Michael Jackson's features would noticeably look like Michael Jackson) 3. Latoya of all people :roll:  :lol:  was the family member who ID'ed the body and was present when it was exhumed. 4. Statement from the coroner's office saying "MJ was taller than they expected".

148
My birthday, I'll be 21 give me a present.  :D

149
Conspiracy Theories / Re: Conspiracy Theories
« on: December 03, 2010, 12:59:56 PM »
John Wilkes Booth, I heard about this on the show Unsolved Mysteries  YEARS ago. This was my first theory I found believable when I was about 9 years old.


CASE DETAILS: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Autopsy revealed similarities between men

In April of 1865, after President Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, two thousand Union troops searched for the killer:  an actor named John Wilkes Booth. On April the 26th at 4:00 AM, soldiers surrounded a tobacco barn on Garrett Farm, near Port Royal in Virginia. They had information that Lincoln’s assassin was inside the barn. A man surrendered, but it was not John Wilkes Booth, but 21-year-old David Herold, known to be one of Booth’s co-conspirators.

Lieutenant Edward Doherty decided to smoke Booth out by setting the barn ablaze. The soldiers were under strict orders to take Booth alive. But as the troops moved in, a sergeant shot a man who was hiding inside. Two soldiers dragged the body from the inferno, but was it really John Wilkes Booth? Historian Nate Orlowek doesn’t think so:

“There is tremendous physical evidence that proved beyond a doubt that John Wilkes Booth, in reality, was not killed by the Federal Government Officers as they claimed. In fact, he lived until January 13th, 1903, when he died in Enid, Oklahoma territory.”


Four of Booth’s co-conspirators were hung

Those who challenge the official account believe that in the confusion following the Civil War, evidence may have been recorded incorrectly or perhaps even covered up. Even some high-ranking military officers questioned the official story of Booth’s death. In the early 1900s, John Shumaker, the army’s General Counsel to the Department of the Army wrote:  “The evidence put forth by the government to support the conclusion that the body was that of John Wilkes Booth was so insubstantial that it would not stand up in a court of law.”

Nate Orlowek and Dr. Arthur Chitty each spent years independently studying the Lincoln assassination. According to Dr. Chitty, they arrived at the same conclusion:

“The most persuasive evidence to me, at Garrett’s Barn, that the man in the barn was not Booth is the fact that his friend David E. Herold came out of the barn and the first thing he said was, ‘The man in there is not Booth.’”

Historian James Hall disagrees and cites a 40-page statement made by David Herold to government investigators just 36 hours after Herold’s arrest:

“Herold referred to Booth ten times by name when he was discussing what went on in the barn while it was being surrounded by the solders. To me, that’s conclusive. I can’t see where they get the idea that he’d come running out and say it’s not Booth.”


Booth’s papers were found in the Garrett barn

Dr. Chitty claims Herold was pressured into changing his story:

“He was in fear of his life. He had been incarcerated with a canvas bag over his head and just a little hole to be fed through. He was under terrible emotional strain and was trying to save his neck, and so, therefore, when he thought that he would survive by changing his story, he changed his story.”

According to Nate Orlowek, other eyewitnesses also refuted the government’s identification of the man killed at Garrett’s Farm:

“Lieutenant William C. Allan worked for the United States Secret Service in 1865. In August of 1937, his widow, Mrs. Helen Allan, told a journalist that her husband had told her that he saw the man at Garrett’s farm who had been killed and that the man had red hair. And that the government knew that that man was not Booth, but they were determined to foist this man on the nation as Booth.”

Every historical account says Booth’s hair was jet black. Eyewitness testimony about the red-haired man was supported by two other Union soldiers: Joseph Zisgen and Wilson Kenzie. Nate Orlowek says the men were friends with Booth in New Orleans:

“Kenzie was a Quartermaster and was free to go wherever he wanted, basically, within the military lines. And so he went with Zisgen to Garrett’s barn because he had an interest in what was going to happen to Booth.”


Six physicians recorded their findings in an affidavit

In 1922, when he was 77 years old, Kenzie detailed what he saw at Garrett’s Farm in a sworn affidavit:  

“As I rode up, Joe Zisgen called ‘Here, come here Sergeant, this ain’t John Wilkes Booth at all.’  I could see the color of his hair. I knew at once it wasn’t he.  His body was exposed and he had no injured leg.”

Nate Orlowek says the men were told to keep the truth a secret:

“And he said that the officers told them there will be dire consequences for anyone who tells the truth. The military really meant business and they were not going to risk their lives just to tell the truth.”

Orlowek says the government autopsy was performed by a physician who was acquainted with Booth:

“Doctor John F. May was a Washington surgeon who removed a tumor from the back of Booth’s neck a few months before the assassination in 1865. His statement is now in the National Archives.  Like all the other government records on the case, it was held secret for seventy years.”
 
Dr. Chitty claims that, like the others, Dr. May was also pressured into lying:

“John Frederick May wanted to tell the truth and he recognized that this was not Booth, but it was made pretty clear to him very early on that ‘this better be Booth.’ And so we have the curious affidavit which starts out saying ‘I’m sure this is Booth.’  And then goes on to say, ‘But it doesn’t look like Booth. But this is certainly Booth.’ Signed, John Frederick May.”

Nate Orlowek sites a lack of documentation:

“Now, had the government really believed that that body was Booth’s, they would have taken pictures of it, they would have had many, many, hundreds of people identify it, but the war department didn’t do that. The government knew that that man was not Booth.”

The body was secretly buried in the basement of the Old Naval Prison in Washington. But if John Wilkes Booth was not killed at Garrett’s barn, then what happened to him?

In 1865, the government moved quickly to close the books on the Lincoln assassination.  The trial of John Wilkes Booth’s co-conspirators resulted in four hangings and three life sentences. The details of the conspiracy were classified as “secret” and hidden away.  Today, some experts believe that Booth actually escaped, and that he lived in the South under assumed names for another 38 years.

In 1907, an attorney from Texas named Finis Bates published a book, called “The Escape and Suicide of John Wilkes Booth.” In its pages, Bates claimed that he learned the true story of Booth from a man named John St. Helen of Granbury, Texas. In 1877, when John St. Helen was seriously ill and afraid he was about to die, he made a startling confession to Finis Bates. He said his real name was John Wilkes Booth. Nate Orlowek:

“Well, Bates, of course, thought this guy was crazy. He had been told, as everyone else had, that Booth had been killed in 1865, so he thought the man was just hallucinating.  And Booth said to him, ‘No, I really am John Wilkes Booth, and now that I’ve told you my secret, I want to give you the whole story.’ So he poured out for Bates a very long confession, detailing in great detail the kidnap conspiracy, the murder conspiracy, how he got out of Washington, how he escaped altogether.”

St. Helen explained that all the bridges out of Washington were closed after nightfall and heavily guarded. But he had been given a password that allowed him to cross. According to Nate Orlowek, one of the guards on duty that night, a man named Frederick Demond, wrote a letter that supports this account:

“In that letter, Demond says that at about 10 P.M. that night, a Captain rode up to the bridge and said if anyone comes up using a certain password, let ‘em through.  And that password was ‘T.B. Road.’ Demond says that was very peculiar because never before had anyone been allowed to cross the bridge using a password.”

Not everyone who was on the bridge that night agreed. Author and historian James O. Hall:

“Sergeant Silas Cobb, who was in charge of this squad at the bridge, didn’t say anything about passwords. All he said was, ‘I thought these people were proper people to go across the bridge and I let ‘em cross’”.

Booth had broken his leg while fleeing. After secretly seeing a doctor, he continued his escape hidden in the back of a wagon. Though he was a fugitive, Booth made the dangerous decision to take personal papers that could identify him as Lincoln’s assassin.
At one point, says Nate Orlowek, it was believed that soldiers were approaching:

“He thought they were Northern soldiers, so he was hurriedly yanked out of the back of the wagon and hustled into the woods. When that happened, his papers and other personal affects fell out.”

Booth sent a messenger back for the papers. But then another messenger arrived with bad news:  Union soldiers were closing in. Booth could no longer wait for his papers and left immediately. It was the man sent back to retrieve Booth’s papers who was in the Garrett barn when it was surrounded by Union troops. This man carried Booth’s papers, so he was identified as the assassin.

As it turned out, St. Helen didn’t die after his deathbed confession. He left town as soon as he recovered. Finis Bates was convinced the story was true. Historian James Hall isn’t:

“Can you imagine a young lawyer talking to a bar owner down in Texas. A gullible young lawyer. So he just fills him full of a great big long story.  And later on Bates, that was the name of this young lawyer, embroidered the story nicely.  And wrote a book about it.”

Is it possible that John St. Helen was really John Wilkes Booth? A comparison of photographs does show a striking resemblance.

In 1903, while staying at a boarding house in Enid, Oklahoma, Nate Orlowek says
John St. Helen committed suicide by drinking a glass of wine laced with strychnine:

“Bates had the body preserved. He took many pictures of the body. And eventually, he had the body mummified to preserve it for posterity, to prove once and for all that the government had fooled us all and he was not going to allow that cover up to stand.”

In 1931, six Chicago physicians examined the mummified body of John St. Helen and recorded their findings in an affidavit. They specifically noted a scarred right eyebrow, a crushed right thumb, and a broken left leg. John Wilkes Booth is known to have had all three of these unusual characteristics.

Did John Wilkes Booth actually escape Union Troops only to kill himself 38 years later in an Oklahoma boarding house? Those who would know took that secret to their graves.

Update:

Though the story of Booth’s escape seems hard to believe, the Smithsonian Institute concluded it was worth a closer look. The Smithsonian even proposed exhuming the body of the man killed at Garrett’s farm, the man officially named as John Wilkes Booth. The Booth family agreed. However, a state court refused permission. The mystery surrounding Lincoln’s assassin still remains.

150
Other Odd Things / Re: MICHAEL IN CONCERT LADY GAGA CLUE ???
« on: December 01, 2010, 10:40:54 AM »
Quote from: "chappie"
She is def not a puppet!
She is a human being standing up in a way more people should do.
Just take your time (20 min) and watch her speech as a angry woman, standing for the National Equality of man and woman in the army, and not doing an show as the artist Lady Gaga!

[youtube:wq5c4c9a]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoqOvFJ5-0c[/youtube:wq5c4c9a]

I'm saying that's nothing new, are we supposed to gauge whether or not a celebrity is a part of the illuminati based on if they support a charity (or something of the likes) while ignoring the messages they put out in there songs (the part that really influences people unknowingly)? IMHO, standing up for gay rights (don't ask don't tell etc.) isn't necessarily anti-illuminati  :| . Unless you think the illuminati is anti-gay, as well as anti-Christian (the illuminati is basically described as being Satanic). How do you define the illuminati? Not being mean just asking.

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