Messages

[It's really frustrating to see that just because I said we shouldn't talk about that girl hatefully, i'm some brainwashed hippie who said we should love everybody and who supports CRAZY and dangerous stalkers.]

@RK: You know why it's hard to move on? because nobody answer to what I write and everybody makes me say what I didn't. Because we can never have real dialog here... it's always " That's my opinion, it's yours". Well everybody has an opinion. I like trying to understand people's perspective, when they respectfully try to explain their views. I like dialog, exchange...sometimes, I change my mind, or I learn things I didn't know. if the conversation doesn't have a "solution", that's not important. Usually, intelligent people like debates, and a debate isn't "I state my opinion, you state yours, the end."
So I'll say it again : It's really frustrating to see that just because I said we shouldn't talk about that girl hatefully, i'm some brainwashed hippie who said we should love everybody and who supports CRAZY and dangerous stalkers. Everybody knows I'm right,  but they rather say "move on" which means "shut up".
It's very hard to express a subtle opinion in here.

" I do not agree with stalking, interfering, pushing yourself into anyone's presence and I never will."

Well Mj seems more than happy to be stalked by pretty girls. By the way he hugs her and smiles in her presence, I can see he's sincerely happy.
What I think is crazy is that the people on this forum decided he didn't like her, trying DESPERATELY to hear a "back off" or some hand gesture (that gesture he did 10 times in the same video)... do u guys have some external outlook on yourselves? Once somebody posted pictures of him hugging her tenderly, it was "OK let's move on".
The truth is it's you who want to scream "back off bitch, it's my man". That's pathetic. Can't you just be happy. Somebody please post that vintage picture you had posted for me in a previous debate, where two woman fights and tear each other's hair. Because that's you with Talitha.  You are all sick he cared for her...

I also have zero tolerance for groupies...

MJ grabbed his crotch repeatedly, thrusted these hips like there was no tomorrow, ripped his shirt and displayed an openly sexual attitude, with direct sexual references in every video. He wanted to be a sex icon, and like every man, he wanted to have groupies. Just because he didn't appreciate groupies with an agenda or groupies who wanted to cause troubles, doesn't mean he hated groupies.

I appreciate you sharing your personal story with me, but a woman can't force a man to sleep with her. A groupie is chosen by an artist, not the contrary. I tend to be down-to-earth and I know every man dream of achieving a status where women throw themselves at him, whether it's for his art, sex-apple, money... If I was dating some super-sexy popstar or musician, I wouldn't naively expect him to be faithful. Men are sex predators, they watch porn, and they want to conquer. It's not the groupies who are in control.

Now I am going to address something that I hope you don't get offended at. There is a line on this hoax site that is about respecting Mr Jackson. This is not a fan fiction site. Conversations about where is Michael's hand in that picture, and sexual inuendo are not welcomed here.  If you feel addressed and hurt by posts directed at you, it may be because you have crossed that line. If Michael would wish to french kiss some girl, good on him. I believe it should be a private thing and is something I definitely don't wish to discuss. It  is his business and his alone. This is a hoax death site.

Of course I'm offended Mother Superior...I have a hard time with this puritan bullshit. Like I said, we saw MJ grabbing his crotch for decades, sexual references being omnipresent in his dance, lyrics, videos. How am I "disrespecting" him by just asking where his hand is in that picture? That's completely crazy ... I know it's not a fan fiction site, but like I said in a previous debate, I'm a human being, not a robot. We are not lenghtily commenting sexy pictures or talking sex fantasies , it's a little observation. A little joke. Nothing. Is THAT forbidden? Is the smallest allusion to something sexual disrespect? You realize it's a personal opinion you are giving here... because no man on earth would find that disrespectful, and certainly not MJ. Last time, u were offended because I said "fuck". Come on... what century do u live in?

If you feel addressed and hurt by posts directed at you, it may be because you have crossed that line.

Well nobody mentioned that, and it came pretty lately in the conversation. I explained why I felt hurt above.
I'm bored too, because nobody is really interessed in good conversation here.
Most of you are completely deluded as to why you are here. Front, whoever he is, must laugh his ass off.
90% of female members, and u think, it's for the hoax. Souza has dedicated 3 full years of her life to that site and she wants the world to believe she's not a fan??? come on, who are u fooling? (Yes I know I'm banned...) most of you spend your fucking days on this forum, when there's almost nothing to investigate, and u don't even want to admit you have the hots for this man???? Everytime somebody dare posting a sexy pic, or makes a tiny sexual allusion, you use the "disrespect" card, just because u can't stand other girls being attracted to YOUR man. The truth is, you probably read every possible MJ fantasy and you fall asleep every night watching sexy pictures of him, your panties wet.
I just can't stand so much hypocrisy.
There's really too much fakeness. Just like Karen Faye, who constantly says "shanti shanti shanti", talks about what an inspiration MJ was to her, and then is totally obnoxious with everybody.
You want the world to be a better place? well take a look at yourself and make a change. It's easy to stick "love army" all over your posts, posting spiritual quotes and pictures of cute children, but it's useless if you are hateful with people . He wanted to understand Hitler, and you can't even understand a fangirl who never hurt anybody. These girls probably come from unbalanced families, and look for love where they can... just like the young people joining gangs. Do you think we can help these people if we just insult them? That's the way Michael saw things, and I know he would agree with me. What do u decide to do?  Close your eyes on the fact Michael cared for these girls and label them as dangerous stalkers. Just because you're jealous when a female approaches him.

I'll keep on reading this site because as far as the investigation is concerned, it's a serious site. I won't be posting anymore, because obviously, I'm not in the right place for good conversation (debates that won't automatically end up very fast with "I'm entitled to my opinion") and people who are honest with themselves. Admitting you are smittened with MJ won't make you sound less intelligent, it's what you say and your behavior that does that. Fans are not divided between horny girls "drooling" over MJ sexy pics and serious hoax-investigators who only care about the depth of his message, thinking they are the only one loving him for who he is. You are taking yourselves way too seriously here, forgetting the importance of self-derision.

I know this message will be deleted, I will be virtually put to death because I've sinned many times here, but I know it will be read by who I want.
I can't do anything wih people who are not honnest with themselves. Bye.

[you don't know and never talked to]

@Bethechange: wow I wasn't talking about you... when did I judge you? and where is the "negativity" in my post? "Negativity" is how you call me reminding Michael's words about judging people you don't know and never talked to ?
You asked me if maybe I was underestimating the dangers of a messed-up mind, what would I think if the celeb is a female. I took the time to answer these questions, because your post was interesting and because I care, and I added my opinion on selfishness in relationships and the relativity of the word "messed up" in today's society.
I really would like to know at what point u didn't like my "tone" and where's the negativity. Is having a different opinion forbidden, or automatically labeledas "negativity"?

@leilani81:

Love is an array of different things but I don't think Love is sitting back and just saying and thinking wonderful things about everyone and constantly speaking positive about everyone. Michael himself had a lovely colorful array of things to say about Madonna but it didn't make him any less wanting to send out love to the world and meaning it.

If everyone constantly had positive words to say about others, then how does others learn what is acceptable and what is not? that is just one thing that a negative judgement can help another person.

The pictures here that i've seen of that girl, it does appear to be a little some what scary and there is nothing wrong with people here being protective of Michael.

there is a bit of a catch 22 going on here. Angel you're here trying to speak to how people can say army of love and say such things, but you must also look at your own posts and see that unknowingly you're judging and speaking negative of those in this thread and just as they spoke negative of that girl.

I wanted to say more but just ran out of time

It's really frustrating to see that just because I said we shouldn't talk about that girl hatefully, i'm some brainwashed hippie who said we should love everybody. the difference is Michael had a relatioship with Madonna (I don't really know what kind, but that's not the subject). He knew her, they spent time together at some point... we NEVER talked to this girl. So all we do is judging her like all the people who were judging Michael. They didn't know anything about him, it didn't matter he was the nicest person on earth, they decided to hate him because he wasn't "normal", he was "messed up" in their opinion : he was a sex icon, a popstar, he wasn't supposed spending his time with children, playing, goofing off and caring for them. He was supposed to fuck models and actresses, drive fancy cars and throw fancy parties. He wasn't "normal"... and we had dozens of articles where some shrinks explained he was psychopath. "Normal" people? we're on a MJ forum.
The girl decided to follow the man that inspires her for some time... I'm sure it was a great adventure for her. Maybe that's not something everybody does, but that doesn't make her a "messed up mind", a psychopath either.

"it does appear to be a little some what scary and there is nothing wrong with people here being protective of Michael."
There are several pictures (just search her up on Google) where he seems more than happy to hug her, to hold her hand... happy to be with her.
He invited her to be with him many times (as we can see on the pictures) and he sometimes called her (well can't verify that).
I don't think he needs us to protect him.

"you must also look at your own posts and see that unknowingly you're judging and speaking negative of those in this thread..."
I'm judging because I'm asking not to judge... no I won't even start this debate.

@suspicious mind:

as per the video it almost looks as though he admonished paris to stay close to daddy. and you can see that they (finally imo :abouttime:) closed up the ranks on her more. watching the whole darn thing was giving me anxiety attacks ! :Pulling_hair:

as per the pic at the table all i can think is : humm wonder what he was cooking up with berry gordy?  :icon_e_wink:

as per anglegraduatedbymichael : i am probably not going to win any points in the nice department here but since i have never official joined the army of love it wont reflect so badly on the others.  :icon_e_wink: i will be expecting a bit of a smack down but here goes.
ever since you signed in on here there has been something about your whole presence that creeps the hell outta me just sayin.

Well maybe the many pictures where he hugs her will soothe your anxiety attacks. There's even a picture proving he invited her to some event and she sits next to him. :icon_e_wink:... so I'm pretty sure that he appreciated her, and like any man, flattered to be followed around by a pretty girl.
I don't know what to say about the "your whole presence creeps the hell outta me" comment, except that yes, u were right, that's not nice, and I don't think I deserve that comment. You could have used other words, but "creepin out"?  really?  It would be polite to explain why I'm creeping you out? Just because I sometimes have a different opinion, because I'm honest with myself and admit that the hoax/investigation only doesn't require a daily visit of the site, because I said we shouldn't judge and speak hatefully of someone we never met, especially since we keep on posting quote about love and compassion?
Have a pick.

Like Michael said, "Men don't scream for women.They are too cool for that." and that's true. Usually, it's always the male superstars who have a group of women/girls following them around. Somehow, it doesn't happen with female stars. I said right away that there 's a clear distinction to be made between the "following groupies" and the real disturbed "stalkers", those that would wait for you in your bedroom (It happened to Celine dion, Madonna,...).

You seriously think Michael didn't have stalkers like that? The fact that they never waited in his bedroom (as far as WE know) simply means he has had insane security. Women are often crazier than men. I find your comments rather naive and ignorant and I agree with what is said already. Now back to Front.

I didn't say that... I've read that at some point, a woman had spent 3 days in Neverland before anyone noticed. All I'm trying to say is that these girls following him are not necessarily dangerous psychopaths likely to stab him or his children. He had a beautiful relationship with these girls, and from what I read on many sources, he cared for them. Read romantic literature, or Shakespeare, didn't people used to do CRAZY things out of love? Everybody thinks that's so cool when it's in the books, why wouldn't it be cool in reality?
"Naive and ignorant...Now back to Front."... that's the equivalent to "Shut up". Have you at least read the long comment I wrote? it seems I wrote all this for nothing. When you label someone with such words, it seems polite to me to explain why. We have many pictures proving Michael appreciated this girl A LOT, maybe he liked to be "stalked". We never had a conversation with her, we don't know that person and she didn't hurt MJ unlike people like Sneddon, Bashir...), so I think we shouldn't judge her or talk about her hatefully... that's what I'm trying desperately to prove. Why can't people express their opinion with respect, so they don't hurt anyone, and so this forum stays a classy place? We don't have to use words like "leeches" or "that face of her"... why can't we just say "I don't understand what motivates these girls", "I wouldn't do what they do"... I'm not saying we shouldn't have opinions, but if Michael could understand Hitler, I think we can try to understand a groupie without insulting her, or we should stop claiming we want to spread Michael's message of love.

I just feel hurt by several members at this point...  I didn't insult anybody, I've just reminded that following Michael around shouldn't be a reason strong enough to be hateful towards that girl, especially if we know for sure Michael liked her presence.

[don't judge a person, do not pass judgement, unless you have talked to them one on one.]

@Angel...thanks for your comments and I do 'get' where you're coming from.  If I'm understanding you correctly, you are trying to be compassionate/understanding towards others, which is commendable.  However, if some of us are blowing things out of proportion (in your opinion), then perhaps you are greatly under-estimating the potential dangers of a 'messed up' mind.  Mike is a first-class act and I would venture to guess that even in times of him being annoyed or even scared by some 'fans' behavior (which he, himself, stated he was on several occasions), he chose to be polite rather than respond in a negative way.  As you said, he showed appreciation.  The problem with a 'messed up' mind is that you give it an inch and it wants the world.  When the world doesn't land in their lap (i.e. when they finally realize that they aren't Mrs. Jackson and never will be)...what then?

I'd be interested in hearing what you would think if the celebrity was a female, with a male following her everywhere...camping out in front of her house, showing up wherever she showed up, always trying to 'get a piece' of her, thinking of himself as her husband.  What if she got home one day and that same man/stalker was sitting in her living room...having somehow gotten past security and had made himself at home, waiting for her to arrive?  Would you not see any danger in that scenario?  Sure, not all 'fans' would go that far...again, we are talking about a 'messed up' mind.  The problem with these 'fans' that do follow Mike everywhere, camp out, etc, is that they DO exhibit classic 'stalker' behavior(s)...and there's been many, many cases that illustrate how this behavior can be dangerous.  If you love someone, why would you ever want to put that person in danger?  IMO when you peel away the layers of these 'fans' and get past the "I do this because I love Michael Jackson so much" layer...you realize that what they are actually doing is fulfilling a very selfish need in themselves.  Having compassion for their 'messed up' minds is, again, commendable (I do find it 'sad' whenever anyone has lost touch with reality)...but that in NO way makes the behavior acceptable.

IMO, the gender of the celebrity or the gender of the 'stalker' has absolutely NO bearing on the potential dangers.  These 'fans' (who btw are not all young teens hoping for a smile)...don't get a 'pass' simply because they have girl parts.  A 'messed up' mind doesn't discriminate.

With L.O.V.E. always.

P.S. Are we way off topic here? lol

@Bethechange: I just don't understand how people can write "army of love" everywhere, and then talk negatively about someone they don't know anything about. Didn't you learn something from Michael's message? Remember how Michael said :  don't judge a person, do not pass judgement, unless you have talked to them one on one. You guys would like so much to see him rejecting her on that video... Who on earth heard a "back off" in this vid?
The "messed up minds" u are talking about : am I underestimating the dangers? Maybe... since I'm not a bodyguard or superstar, I have no idea about how frequently MJ had to deal with these people, but neither do u guys! I think the security he hired was trained to recognize these people as fast as possible. Then, from the many videos I've seen, MJ always loved contact with people and the fans. He didn't seem scared to death when hugging fans, or shaking hands with people, so I guess the really dangerous minds were rare.

"I'd be interested in hearing what you would think if the celebrity was a female, with a male following her everywhere...camping out in front of her house, showing up wherever she showed up, always trying to 'get a piece' of her, thinking of himself as her husband.  What if she got home one day and that same man/stalker was sitting in her living room...having somehow gotten past security and had made himself at home, waiting for her to arrive?  Would you not see any danger in that scenario? "
Like Michael said, "Men don't scream for women.They are too cool for that." and that's true. Usually, it's always the male superstars who have a group of women/girls following them around. Somehow, it doesn't happen with female stars. I said right away that there 's a clear distinction to be made between the "following groupies" and the real disturbed "stalkers", those that would wait for you in your bedroom (It happened to Celine dion, Madonna,...).

"...you realize that what they are actually doing is fulfilling a very selfish need in themselves.  Having compassion for their 'messed up' minds is, again, commendable (I do find it 'sad' whenever anyone has lost touch with reality)...but that in NO way makes the behavior acceptable."
Like I said, there's selfishness in every relationship. It's sad, but many people are in a couple mostly because they need to be in a relationship, not because they need to love. Look at the girls in Sex and the City... they clearly represent the western woman, a woman who is in love with love, with the idea of having a relationship, more than with a man. Too many people have children because it's a social norm, because at a certain age, people expect you to have children.
So it's a sad observation, but life led me to think that pure unselfish love is rare. When you say they fulfill a a very selfish need in themselves, well, I think that's the case in every love relationship. We all have a need to love, and we want to fulfill that need. Is that selfish? Maybe. I have compassion for them, because like I said, they probably don't come from the most balanced family. When you don't find love in your family, you look for it somewhere else. Some girls sleep with the entire high school, some start wearing gothic clothes and find a new family in their gothic friends, some follow a popstar around the world... that's how I see things. I'm very cautious when using the words "messed up"... the whole world is messed up in my opinion. Facebook is a messed up thing to me, even if it's "normal" for most people. Having hundreds of people u hardly know labeled as "friends" (does that word still mean sthg?), giving them every detail of your life is messed up. "Messed up" can be good... I think MJ was messed up (like many brilliant artists), he had multiples personalities in my opinion, and that fascinates me completely. All this to say, I rarely allow myself to say "that's not normal".

@Adi: thank for the laugh as well... :) If we had a picture of him frenchkissing her, someone would say he does it to be polite, but he is scared!

@mindseye:  :) lol... yeah maybe it's a lookalike. Thank you for the pictures... I'm really happy for her. At least, she will have nice memories and stories for her grandchildren. No wonder she followed him and acted like she's part of the crew, he seemed to like her. Lucky girl ... Awww look at him on the pictures. He really is an ANGEL. He's always thankful... he's not thinking "oh i'm the biggest superstar on the planet and you're just a regular girl, I have thousands of fans like you"... No, he's really thankful for her love. He's so pure and beautiful... but where the hell is his hand on the second picture??? lol ... naughty boy.

Sorry if it's late, but this is the only vid i found the girl in red chasing all the time, pretending to be part of. 3.41 min, do not understand what MJ says.

I don't know what he says exactly in this 2007 video and other copies of it, but it's in response to the other person pointing her out - I don't believe he was angry and saying back off in that way. I'm not supporting stalking, or what she is doing, but he knows who she is.

A few months ago she approached the kids with a gift and Paris is following her on twitter.

I noticed a few weeks ago Pearl contacted her too.
@Pearljr
@talithafluttrby @BreakOfDawn_MJ Just found U Talitha Imagine all this time & just now I visited UR honest & loving website dedicated 2 MJJ

@talithafluttrby
@Pearljr @BreakOfDawn_MJ hi there! thank u so much for the compliment, i'm glad u liked it x

Looks like she followed him a lot during rehearsals and in this 2009 image he seemed okay with it... at that moment I suppose.

FrontM... how's the other snippet, drawing, poem, photo or update going? ;D

:) thank u for that much needed support, and thank you for that beautiful picture, which proves my point : all "stalkers" are not some dangerous psychos with a hidden knife, that made MJ's life a nightmare. They have nothing to do with Sneddon or Diane Dimond lol. Like we've seen in Bashir's documentary, he liked girls'attention like any man. Remember how he said to a very insisting female fan : "I'll give you more than a hug". On many vids, we can see how he touched female fans in a very fatherly and caring manner. He even worried they would get hurt by the bodyguards.
He doesn't look very panicked in this picture, and I think no girl would follow him around the world if she didn't have that kind of moment with him.
I'm really happy for her, she seems blissful on the picture and I'm telling you honestly, if I knew I could get a hug like this one, maybe I wouldn't stalk him because I have a life I like enough lol, but I would wait a few days where he wants me to lol.

Sarahli, I agree at 3:4l-- I don't hear the words but the situation of guard notifying MJ and MJ motioning to the girl to back-off.
BTC well said!

What was weird to me is that many pics of the so called "stalkers" outside the hospital when MJ passed were posted all over the .net and magazines  :animal0017: They also were there the "last" night Michael was seen alive.

I would be afraid having people following me like that fan did follow Michael  :errrr:

And also...have some dignity woman!

Similar situations took place in chat lines where many women were hurt by fake Michaels, women following the fake Michael from chat to chat imo showed the same "stalker" behaviour and got really hurt at the end.

Perhaps human nature, wanting to follow something, believe in something, look up to something, focus on something. I can't judge that, being here and not able to quit altogether--there's a certain magnetism.  But there's always a need for balance, wisdom, sensitivity to others. That girl should be sensitive to Michael's need for privacy--there's a time and place for showing her support for him--which he really does appreciate. And for us we need to respect our families, friends, personal health in coming here. About fake MJ's, that's where THOROUGH investigation comes in.

Onthewingsoflove

Statistics show that on Sunday 60 to 80% of any given congregation is comprised of women!

http://www.speakingofmen.com/menvschurch.html
http://www.whychurch.org.uk/gendergap.php
http://www.barna.org/faith-spirituality/508-20-years-of-surveys-show-key-differences-in-the-faith-of-americas-men-and-women

I'd venture a guess--that women crave deep relationship and men crave physical adventure/excitement. At least that's totally the story with my hubby. He dropped out of church long before I did, and even when he was there he was bored and uninterested. Now he pursues what he likes with my blessing--owning a muscle car/going to car rallies, watching sports and action movies on TV, flying remote control aircraft.  Maybe that's why there's not so many guys here too. Just guessing. :icon_e_confused: :suspect: :icon_lol:

Your statistics concerns religious gatherings... it's totally irrelevant. On most conspiracy/hoax dedicated sites, there's usually a majority of men. On most popstars sites, there are both men and women. Why is it mainly females here? and I know you guys particularly, don't believe in coincidences.
I'm telling you how it is for me, because it's important for me to be honest with myself: If I wasn't a little in love with Michael, I would've studied the case for a few weeks/months, and I would've thought : OK, very interesting, there's nothing else to do but wait. Period. I wouldn't have come here daily, to sometimes read about his cousin's twitter! or his daughter's! because honestly, I wouldn't care at all.

I don't think 'love' has anything to do with it, when it comes to calling a spade a spade, in this context...stalker fans.  It doesn't apply to the feelings of these stalkers towards Mike...love has an inherent quality of respect, and their behavior precludes any signs of respect for Mike, his children, or his 'space'/privacy.  It doesn't apply to love of oneself...because that involves some measure of self-respect, honor and humbleness...and to keep following a guy around that tells you to 'back off' negates all that.  And it most definitely has nothing to do with not showing 'love' for mankind or fulfilling the requirements of the 'army of love'....parents point out wrongdoings in their own children, in the hopes of character building...which in NO way means they don't love them, quite the opposite in fact.

IMO there is nothing wrong with loving Mike and/or wanting or wishing for the opportunity to be around him...that's just human nature.  But when that desire/wish interferes with his safety or his children's wellbeing...then a line has been crossed and the territory no longer resembles a 'loving' atmosphere.  To categorize any 'obsession' with the hoax as the same thing as being a 'tick' or 'flea' is not accurate...since nothing we've done here infringes on his personal, and rightful, space and privacy.  Granted, there are some 'themes' in this hoax that IMO border on what's acceptable (i.e. some of the discussions about the children IMO should be off limits)....but someone could literally be on here 24/7 and still not intrude on Mike's personal life/space/safety like these stalker fans did prior to his 'death'.

Not to mention the fact that looking/being desperate is one of the least attractive human qualities anyone could exhibit.

With L.O.V.E. always.

Nice post  :) but very few people really know what real/unselfish love is, at least that's what I observe around me. Like I said in my previous post about "stalkers", it's an exaggerated word for most of the girls we are talking about. If he were telling them constantly to "back off" (which he didn't, in that vid) without never giving them any sign of appreciation, they wouldn't sacrifice so much for him.
"...when that desire/wish interferes with his safety or his children's wellbeing."/"...intrude on Mike's personal life/space/safety like these stalker fans did prior to his 'death'.": I think you are blowing things out of proportions. We are talking about teens who wait patiently for days near his hotel, in hope of a smile, a letter... for the most part, that's what these girls are.

"...since nothing we've done here infringes on his personal, and rightful, space and privacy...". I hugely respect this site, but many people called us "disrespectful" for what we do. Some think that even if he's not dead, we should let him be, explaining that if he wants to come back, he will. So i'm telling you this, because I think everything is a question of perspective.

I'm sorry I couldn't reply earlier, but I'm moving right now, so I'm pretty busy.
I knew most people here would disagree with my opinion, and I'm sorry if I hurt anyone, that's not my purpose.

@Souza:

Thank you for the vid, but there's absolutely nothing showing him annoyed with her. In my opinion, it's impossible to distinguish a single word of what he says, and as for the arm gesture, I don't think it's a "back off" gesture. He's talking to several people just before her, doing the same move with his arm everytime. It's pretty clear it's a "Hey pal I'm talking to you" body language. He shakes several people's hands, and as always, he's sweet, humble and friendly (God how can u not love that man? when everyday, you meet morons who brag because they have a degree, or bought a car lol). I can't see him really preoccupied with security here. Many people get really close to Paris, and he doesn't mind. Besides he knew her, I doubt he would get pissed if she was "too close" to Paris. Paris is surrounded with several giant bodyguards, what can a female teen do?

"Also, on the wall of the guard's post at Neverland, there are pictures and even mugshots of 'fans' that Michael did not want to have near him, that had texts like 'Thinks she's Mrs. Jackson', 'Might be armed', etc."

I'm sure that's true... and it's probably the case with every big celebrities. I think there's a crucial distinction to make in this debate : "die hard fans" and psychopaths. Some have just a vivid imagination and a huge need to feel the presence of whoever they idolize, they just feel good in the presence of their idols but they would never harm them, which isn't the case with the second group. Some girls like to secretly imagine they are Mrs Jackson in their fantasies, some will claim they are his wife everywhere. Very different.

"Love for mankind does not mean that you have to like every single individual, certainly not when they stalk you, harass you or your children or even become dangerous to you or your family. Michael has been physically hurt by fans, has been stalked probably a million times. I have had some stalkers, one who even went as far as threatening to kill me and calling me 20 times a day. I know how that invades your privacy and how scary that is. I can only imagine what Michael had to deal with his whole life. And I believe female stalkers are much worse than male stalkers. Michael did not appreciate stalkers..."

I've NEVER said that. IMO Love for mankind means you'll try to understand people as much as you can, understand their pain, what they've been through, and how sometimes, they are different from what they would like to be. Even when you think they act "weird"and/or stupid. I just totally agree with Michael on that point, I think that if more people had tried to understand Hitler, we wouldn't have WWII.
I'll give you a concrete example: When I see young people who can't talk properly, swear and throw insults every two words, trying pathetically to behave like some big shot gangster, what am I to do? Am I going to say "stupid people, u suck, I'm so much better than u" or am I going to try to understand the laws of karma that made them become who they are? I'm not going to lie to myself and think that if I were born in their social background, with the parents they have, I would have become the same "classy and educated" lady I am today. Maybe love is a strong word, but understanding what people went through, what voids they have to fill, yes.

"Some 'fans' are obsessed so badly that they become dangerous. Not wanting people like that around does not mean you have no love for mankind, that's utter bull crap."

Please don't make me say what I didn't, I'm not some naive 12 yo who writes cheesy quotes about love in her diary. I'd like to know when the fan girl we are talking about became some dangerous stalker. We know every major male superstar like Michael, expecially those having a sex-symbol status, always had and have groups of groupies following them around. It's not a new phenomenon...The word "stalker" has a dangerous undermeaning. The groupies just follow their idol around, the stalkers get aggressiv in my opinion.
From what I read, like I said, Michael liked these girls, at least the ones that weren't considered dangerous. He wrote letters to them and would tell the bodyguards to give them to the girls, he sometimes invited them to Neverland (remember the very pretty girl named Johanna, who spent some time in Neverland, and was pretty close to the entire family) , he talked with them regularly... and when the 9/11 attacks occured, he paid for their accomodation (Reason 178934344 why he's one of a kind. Can't imagine any other star doing that. Well I would do it lol, if I was a star  :) ). So he really cared for them, and that's nice. I know that like me, he saw these girls like lost children, and he knew that among them, some had true love for him. Besides, even if these girls are "obsessed", I don't think they would follow him around for years if they never had something in exchange.

"FYI2: I am NOT a fan, I am in no way obsessed by Michael Jackson's persona. Most people on here are here for reasons other than to drool over Michael's pictures. Spending 3 years on this hoax can NOT be compared with a stalker fans spending 10 years to travel the world and walk besides Michael, making themselves think they are married to him for 2 minutes. What we do here has value, we learn and we research. How on earth can you see similarities to stalker fans?"

Well it depends on what your definition of a fan is. If you automatically see a female fan like some brainless horny female who has her walls plastered with MJ, only listen to His music and spends her life "drooling" over sexy pictures of him, then u're probably not a fan. I tend to think that when a person takes a lot of space in your life, to a point where u think about that person at least once a day... whatever it is you "think" about or concentrate over, it can be the music, the dance, the gold pants, gossip and it can be his humanitarian work, his creation process, or the hoax... you're a fan. He was unique in so many ways...no wonders there are so many fans.
Now like I said, even if his death has "hoax" written all over it, with all the unanswered questions around it, I can't imagine someone spending 3 years of hard word and dedication to study the death of someone she/he doesn't particularly care about. A few months, if someone likes studying hoaxes and conspiracies, but 3 full years, I don't believe it.
"Most people on here are here for reasons other than to drool over Michael's pictures." I visit the site on a daily basis, and honestly, I don't think the hoax requires daily attention (except at some points). I do it because I need my daily dose of Michael, and I like the variety of subjects we cover here. I would say that fans are more educated on this forum, and this gives some interesting debates, and sometimes,a different perspective on things. So maybe it's not drooling over Michael's pictures, but when you visit a forum daily, sometimes several times a day for some members, it's being a fan, and it's not just about the hoax.
"What we do here has value, we learn and we research. How on earth can you see similarities to stalker fans?" I totally respect the work, but like I said, the effective research for the last year must represent 20% of the posts. Rest of the time, we joke, chat, talk about old clues, celebrate anniversaries...

They need love? Does Michael have to give personal attention and love to every delusional woman on earth thinking they are married to him, or do you think he can sort of live his life as much as possible and get those leeches off his back? And I am not talking about the harmless screaming fans that are dangerous only in a way they would cuddle him to death, I am talking about the real psychos. So don't tell Gina off on this, because she is right.

Would you say the same if Gina mentioned a video where Michael tells Tom Sneddon to back off? If you say love for everyone than you should include Sneddon, and Dimond, and Batshit and all other rats, or else you are a hypocrite.

See, when I say understanding people, not judging, I mean not using words like "leeches" or "that face of her". Sneddon, Dimond, we know they hurt Michael a lot, these girls have nothing to do with him. Like u said, most of them want to cuddle him to death ( that's cute  :)) or probably spend a night with him... and luckily, there are not that many REAL psychos. I reacted to Gina's post, because we don't know anything about this girl. If the fact she was following MJ enough to label her a psycho, I disagree. I read her site a long time ago, and she seems a very "normal" and "lovely" person. Pearl seems a lot more "psycho" to me than her.

@Gina: "Yes who am I to judge her? I only know what I saw in a video, when Michael told her to back off. And it is sick to follow a man around everywhere. For God's sake, if he wanted her around, he wouldn't have been to shy to ask for her continuous presence."

Sorry but u are the one having "Army of Love" under your name, so I thought you might wanna understand why people act a certain way before judging them.
Writing spiritual quotes and cheesy words about love is something millions of people do, applying it on a daily basis is much more important and rare.
What does "Army of Love" mean? It doesn't mean loving only cute little children and nice people, it means loving everybody, even the people who you think are "weird".

I'd like to see that video where Michael tells her to back off, because I've watched A LOT of various vids, never saw him telling fans to back off.
It may be "sick" to follow a man everywhere, like it can be considered "sick" to post daily about a popstar officially dead 3 years ago. I'm not telling it is, but many would say it's sick... just to say every person is "sick" to someone else.

"Angel, please don't talk to me anymore this way. It's very annoying. I don't want to answer you. I don't agree with your last post anyway.
I am not the one stalking Michael. I am not the one who was told to back off."
Annoying? Well I respectfully expressed my opinion, because I think we shouldn't act like some "enlightened fans", and look down on other fans.
I don't want this forum to be a "pompous" fan forum, where we are the truth seeking investigators , the spiritual apostles of the hoax genius as oposed to the gold pants glitter-obsessed horny fans or IwanttomarryprinceMichael fans.
You say you don't want to answer... one might think I've said horrible things. I didn't.
Somehow, we stalk Michael "virtually" on this site. As interesting as the hoax is, most of the time, it doesn't require a daily study. Why are we here? because we're a bunch of girls smittened with Michael, and we like to talk about him. Come on, we think a member here is MJ, and we wait for his sporadic posts and teasing pics like puppies... so I'm not ashamed of what I believe in, because I know MJ enough to know he would enjoy doing this... but so far, we sure look crazy, obsessed and pathetic to many people, and are in NO position to judge anybody.

I'm asking you to look at these girls you labeled as "stalkers" with compassion, not judgement. Isn't that the main thing we learned from Michael? I think die-hard fans are very fragile people. They are usually teens, going through an obsessive phase... like gothic teens. I see them like addicts... and IMO, at least, they chose a good person to be addicted to.   French poet Rimbaud said : "You are not really serious when you are seventeen." We should keep that in mind. Can you imagine the craziness Michael went through with the fans? He was NEVER mean, even in the worst moments. He hugged, smiled, patiently signed autographs for 40 years, always with kindness.

I said all this with LOVE, Gina. I've been reading your posts for a long time, I appreciate you and I'm not trying to hurt you... I just disagree with the idea of dissing any type of fans here. Let's not fail to practice those virtues that we preach.

Yeah how can I forget that face of hers....I thought she was his nb.1 stalker and he really got sick of her in the end.
If you really think about it, it is not  normal to travel all around the world after a man for 5 minutes of attention. Even if that man is Michael J Jackson.

@Gina:  wow who are we to judge her? are we the "normal" fans? ...You girls probably think it's a coincidence if 90% of the members of this site are females lol.
90% of the world think WE are crazy... is it "normal" to obsess over a popstar's mysterious death for 3 years? Gina, I don't want to sound mean,  but you sure spend a lot of time here to allow yourself to judge other fans. I know a lot of people will disagree, but I think every girl visiting this site on a regular basis is smittened with MJ. As fascinating and mysterious as his death is, we wouldn't be here every day if he looked like the mayor in Ghost lol. There are MANY "conspiracy" theories, or historical events with alternative versions : JFK assassination, 9/11, HIV, Marilyn Monroe's death, how the CIA recruited many Nazis from Germany, how IBM worked for the Nazis, the mysteries around the death of Hitler, what happened in Lybia a few months ago and how they setup Gaddafi, provoking a civil war, what they try to do in Syria right now... and out of all this, we choose to spend 3 years to observe, find clues and theories around Michael JAckson's death.
Let's face it: we are all obsessed with his "death", and with this man (not the just the popstar he was) and in no position to judge anybody.

I'll admit I'd like to know what motivates these girls following him around the world, how can they sacrifice their life for him... but I surprised myself many times during these 3 years. I NEVER thought I'd cry watching tribute videos for someone I had never met, I never thought I could miss someone I had never met so much. I never tought I'd be here after 3 years... I understood I needed someone to look up to, and that I chose who I thought was the most perfect human being, even with his weaknesses. I understood that in the ocean of selfishness, eagerness and meanness we live in, I needed to know there are people like him... and every evening, I need his eyes to forget the chaos, the news, the people sleeping on the street, the mean words, the huge egos... I need him, almost religiously. I don't have my walls covered with his face, I don't wear an MJ shirt, and I can talk about many subjects other than him, but I NEED him, on a spiritual level. He soothes me.
We don't know anything about these girls, and before judging them, we should try to LOVE them. Have we seen their childhood?Doesn't it remind u of something?
We don't know what happened in these girls'lives... I'm pretty certain they don't have the most balanced families to feel the need to follow a man through the world.
He never talked to us, and we've been posting on this site for 3 years, sometimes daily... imagine what we would do if he had talked to us casually like he did with them.

For all I know, he liked these girls. He wrote letters to them, he hugged them, talked with them, ... he knew they are not dangerous, that all they needed was a little love, and that it would just be a phase for them. It sounds crazy, but nuns lock themselves up for their entire lives to pray someone they are not even sure existed, so why not following the man you love for a few months?

I think "Normal" isn't a word to use on an MJ forum... Normal people are pretty boring to me, and usually hide some pretty crazy stuff. Michael isn't a "normal" guy  and that's probably one of the reasons he's exceptional.

 :WTF:

 :) Question for American natives : Can Baloney be considered BBQ food?

 :) Thank you for your post Mindseye... all this symbolism can't be a coincidence.

I don't think that's a Kabbalah bracelet, it's too sophisticated. The Kabbalah bracelet is a plain bright red thread.

Just a thought about Front. Even he posts a picture of his face and he appears to be MJ, we won't be able to know for sure it's him because that could be an old pic.
I thought he said he was MJ at some point, didn't he?

 :th_bravo: Thank you lol...  :thjajaja121: I've had a good laugh.

Still, I don't think there's one forum where people agree on everything. A little disagreement once in a while doesn't mean there no love in here.

@ Im_convincedmjalive:

You are not answering what I wrote, pretty much because there are not a thousand ways to understand your words and you know it.
So yeah, just call me a drama queen... it's so much easier.

"in case you were to blinded by MJ's sexiness cuz ya know he is a sex god after all..."
OK lol.... and you get offended because I called your attitude "pompous"... I think it's a euphemism actually.
I don't think I've been mean in anything I said.

"in TRUTH and that truth for me is I'm here for a much more important reason than to sit and droool over MJ and his chest hairs."
See there you go again. If we talked about his looks for pages, you could actually say we "sit and droool over MJ", but that's not the case.
DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO BE IMPORTANT AND DEEP? Can't we relax once in a while? Is a little joking and fantasy automatically superficial and out of subject?
Sorry, but I can't be serious all the time... that would be too boring.
If I were talking about freckles on his body, it's just because unlike you and many people here, I refuse to blindly believe he's MJ, just because that would be so cool and a happy ending.
Dissecting the pictures he posts, locating feckles, as stupid as it can sound, is a rational approach to me.
Even if it's MJ on these pictures, we can't be sure he's posting them. Do u have an idea about the quantity of pictures of him we don't have???
The photoshoped picture of his hand and his language make me doubt...

"The man is on this forum and reads/writes/interacts with us on a regular. It is not necessary for me to constantly compliment him regarding his features. He has heard this same ole same ole from Billy Jean's his whole career so 1 more compliment from a drooooling fan won't all of a sudden make him jump up and down. Of course IMO."
Wow I think it's crazy to be that convinced he's MJ... but maybe, I wish you were right, honestly.
We are not "constantly" complimenting his features... please stop saying this.  Plus what you wrote is wrong: I always like a compliment, even if I've had them all my life, and I think it's the case for everybody, even MJ.

"The gif pic wasn't showing for me yesterday so I just now seen what it is, lmao. I'm sure that is exactly his reaction watchin' this play out! I'm glad to have entertained him! "
If Front isn't MJ, that sure entertains him. If he's MJ, I seriously doubt it.
I don't think this picture reflects the situation because we are not fighting for him or to know who's better.
Anyway, I expressed my opinion, you expressed yours, and we disagree. It happens... I'm far from being as hateful as these ladies on the pictures and as far as I know, even if the dialog between us was tensed, it wasn't what I would call a fight.
If you want to answer, answer and let's just stop it here, and forget about it... it's not a big deal compared to why we're here.  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

@RK:   it's hard to refuse something to you with that smile of yours  :)
Sorry but I feel really misunderstood here... We can't be serious and talk about the hoax 100% of the time!? Am I wrong?  I think we need to relax a little bit as well. I mean, the hoax is about having a good time and bonding as well. Michael is the first to say one can be dedicated without forgetting to have fun.