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also if the Para"s didn't know it was MJ , I doubt very seriously they would continue to defib, admin drugs, cpr and fluids for that long off a period.  The longest code I have done was an hour, and i broke every rib that persons body and most codes if you dont get them back in 10 mins or so it ain"t happening.  MJ only had a few broken ribs.  If you dont break em, your not doing it right.  To simulate the hearts circulation takes alot of force to properly profuse the body and prevent cell death.  So imo a regular citzen wouldnt get such an extended attempt to revive so did they or did they not know who it was?  And an extended attempt to revive would equal more broken ribs and esp since MJ was so "frail".  It dont add up either way.

If you dont break em, your not doing it right.

No no no no no!! This is NOT true at all!!!!!!!  You sometimes break ribs, sometimes don't. But you should never use breaking ribs as an indicator that you're doing it correctly.

You pump maybe 20 times, then you take a break, and a second person ( in this case the paramedic on the right side ) pumps O2 into the body, 2 or 3 times. Then you start the heart treatment again. You aren´t allowed to do both things at the same time.

It's actually a ratio of 30 compressions to 2 breaths. However, once the patient is intubated (which the patient in the photo is), you actually DO do the compressions and respirations simultaneously.

2) The other one has an intubation bag which is not squeezed, and not on the way to be squeezed.

The bag should be squeezed every 5 to 6 seconds. No way the photos were taken over that long of a succession.

3) The manual blood pressure is off, ok you could mention that maybe the blood pressure is recorded digitally. But the monitor is off.

They use an NIBP that is attached to the monitor, which we cannot see the monitor screen so we don't know it it's on or not. This screen is NOT the screen on the wall of the ambulance. And realistically, the patient had been asystolic for a loooong time. You're not going to get a blood pressure anyway.

4) I still can´t see any IV equipment, as I posted some pages ago.

It's attached to his neck.

5) I can´t see ECG pads, there should be two on the chest underneath the clavicle ( one on each side ) and one on the left side of the thorax. The ECG could be watched on the monitor, but the monitor is off.

You can see one of the defib pads. It's partly under the medics hand on the upper right portion of the patient's chest near his shoulder. It's the giant white thing. You would not be able to see the second defib pad from the angle of the photo. And again, we don't know that the monitor is off. We DO know there is a monitor present, to which the ETCO2 on the ET tube would be connected, and the blood pressure cuff, and the defib pads.

Edit because I should have just kept reading and posted everything in this one post:

Another thing is, when a person dies, their eye are usually slighly opened, regardless of the time. And most of the time, people die with their eyes completely opened

There is no rule of thumb for this. I've worked codes with eyes wide open and eyes totally shut. Ones I could close and they stayed close, others I tried to close and they opened wide or opened a little bit. Ones I couldn't close. Ones that were closed that I could open and they stayed open, and others that were closed and when I opened them they stayed open.

MJ supposedly had adrenaline injected into him, but I haven't heard of any evidence of any defribilation being done...very unusual.

Not unusual. All reports state he was in PEA and asystole. He was never in a shockable rhythm - a rhythm that would have be appropriate for defibrillation to be performed.

A ride in an ambulance can be very bumpy, and again, protocol is not adhered to because one of the paramedics is standing up as the ambulance is in transit

You can't do compressions sitting down. You HAVE to stand in the ambulance. (If he was on the ground, you could kneel). But you can't do them while sitting in the ambulance.

Very unlikely, and no IV lines at all

There is. The IV is in his neck.

If we are still investigating ambulances, I would be curious to know what the inside of this ambulance looks like:
[attachment=0:6m0gd5yh]mj_hit_wm_0005_Layer_7_copy_full.jpg[/attachment:6m0gd5yh]

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/michael ... ost_recent

Anybody? Also, what's with that logo on the window on the right? And the "layer 7" in the picture filename?

Two of my jobs use the van style ambulance. I have offered to take photos, but it looks so different that other people have said don't bother. It's SUPER small compared to the box style.

Here's a post I did a WHILE ago discussing ambulance styles:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/ ... 10#p150956

[that]

Just the fact that the ambulance had trouble leaving the property is enough for me to doubt that it was a real ambulance in a real emergency situation. I'm sure Ambulance drivers aren't permitted to drive at high speeds weaving in traffic, as they do, without superior driving skills to other drivers - their training must be rigorous.  The guy backing out seems to take too long and needs too much assistance for a real driver who knows his vehicle. Why did he go in there frontways without checking how hard it was going to be to get out?  I need to find the aerial view of the house to check this - I know I've seen it on this site somewhere - but isn't their a circular drive?

Also - why was the fire engine there? Station 71 knew from the 911 call that the emergency was medical not a fire or rescue.  Is that normal practice?  It seems a waste of resources, but I suppose those guys made themselves useful, by setting out the witches hats that stopped traffic in the street and by guiding the ambulance through the gates.

I believe that whatever Ben filmed that day could not have involved real paramedics believing it to be a real emergency (and anyone who has carefully watched that video would understand why). I think the fire truck was needed to prevent vehicles into the area and so the ambulance had to back out to explain why the whole raod need to be cut from traffic.  So I believe the whole thing was staged including the timing of the tour bus.

Fire trucks are sent because they carry more personnel and paramedics that are helpful on calls such as codes. Much easier to have a bunch of hands than 4.

can someone answer if the hospital was notified ahead of time that this person was enroute where would the hospital staff be at the time of arrival? waiting further inside or directly at the door?

Yes. Hospitals are notified in advance. The MDs and nurses would be inside the hospital waiting for the patient. Doctors or nurses do not meet ambulances outside.

You sure it is not against the HIPPA law? Btw: I have a background in medical coding and billing. I have worked for a private Dr.'s office and I have worked for a health insurance company processing claims and customer service. I legally could not say (outside of the realm of my job) I didn't work on so and so claim.
Only exception to that would be if I was given certain privilege to speak on it.

It's not against the HIPPA law for a paramedic to say that is not him (self, the paramedic "it's not me") appearing as a subject in a famous photograph of the victim of a high profile manslaughter case.

I don't buy it... that the authenticity would never be questioned if real paramedics (not in on it) were involved on 6/25/09.

I'm sticking to common sense dictating that the paramedics were actors, both that day and the other day-- even if that means the LAFD (or at least one) were working as actors at one point.

Protected health information (PHI), under the US Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), is any information about health status, provision of health care, or payment for health care that can be linked to a specific individual. This is interpreted rather broadly and includes any part of a patient's medical record or payment history.

The paramedics are providing the patient health care therefore they become part of the privacy issue. They also become part of the patient's medical record.
official story, have often given one or more of the following reasons against the hoax: there would be way too many people "in on it" (so surely someone would've let the cat out of the bag by now); or, many of the things that have happened would be illegal, if it was a hoax; or, the government would not be in on a plan to expose corruption in the government, etc.

It's actually HIPAA, not HIPPA (common mispelling, btw), and Bec is correct. Saying the ambulance photo is or is not them is not a violation of HIPAA.

I have a couple of questions, that I know we've covered, but with so much info on our site now, I didn't know where to sift it from.
I've looked on the net and articles say Murray rode in the ambulance with Michael.  Actually all I've found say that.  So is it our opinion that he did?  Where would a man his size sit in that ambulance?
And, in the pics of Michael being removed from the amb.  was Murray there getting out also?

He would sit on the giant bench seat that is out of view in the photo (on the patient's left).

Didn't Oxman say that the picture in the ambulance was a fake? Here is the video stating so.. I posted some more videos to see the difference of MJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxDVREww8GA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On0WUNWCebo

Hope this will help. Blessings.

He said he THINKS it's fake. Never confirmed it, and unfortunately, it didn't go anywhere after that.

Just because I feel it's appropriate to put these here. If you hadn't seen the thread from a WHILE ago, these were pictures I had taken:

With Flash

Without Flash

This is through an ambulance window, however the ambulance was inside, not outside. The intention was to see if it was possible to take a photo through an ambulance window, and it is possible. It is also the same angle as the ambulance photo with (supposedly) MJ.

Also, please keep in mind that this was taken with a simple digital camera, not the high tech equipment photographers use. I also am not that great with a camera, and don't know what settings would be appropriate to take the best photo with my camera, and the paparazzi I'm sure know.

Staring at the ambu picture for almost 30 min, I still can't figure it out.The mask and the bag valve of the resustication kit doesn't look familiair, I mean I've never seen a blue oxygen mask like that before (may be common in the US?). The tube which connects the mask and the bag valve seems too long. May be I'm wrong and is this a regular ambu resustication kit :?

Just thinking The song "Behind The Mask" could also be meant literally :lol:  ;)

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but the picture you posted uses a mask with the BVM. In the MJ picture, the patient is intubated and the tube is connected to the BVM. There is no mask in the ambulance photo. Does that help?

[The ambulance attendant is performing chest compressions with only one hand!!!]

Hi everyone. I have been sitting back watching this thread for days now and I just noticed something that really sticks out to me in the picture!! The ambulance attendant is performing chest compressions with only one hand!!! :o This is almost as bad as Murray performing CPR on the bed!! :lol:  :lol: I don't know why I didn't see this before! Also the other ambulance guy isn't compressing air into MJ, so whenever this pic was taken, it doesn't look like they were actually trying to revive MJ at all...well at least not at the moment the pic was taken...I find that very strange!!

This was my "DUH" moment!!  :lol: Is this one of the things you wanted us to find TS??

Sending you all LOVE!! :D

That's been brought up before. It's not unusual to end up doing CPR with one hand. Especially when it's been continuing for 45 minutes. And anyone who has been asystolic that long is not going to survive, unfortunately.

I have some news from a photographer. He told me that it is impossible to take a picture with tinted windows. Logically, if you cannot see inside you cannot see anyting when you take a picture. Example. Limos.. this photographer takes lots of wedding pictures. Limos have tinted windows, he cannot take any picture because the picture will turn out black.  I asked him if he can give me an example so i can post here to show you guys, he will try. I do not know him personally, but he is a friend of a friend. He said the picture of Michael was taken another day,  just the way  enstad said it. I hope i wrote his name correctly. and it was doctored. I hope this can clarify some incertitudes.

Limo tint is TOTALLY different than an ambulance tint. An ambulance tint is just like a car tint. And you can take a photo through it.

What do you see different in the blood pressure thing, other than lighting and resolution?

The angle, the "black thing" on the side (left in one, right in the other)...

Flash may also explain why the monitor is on in the video, and looks off in the still.  The light of the flash is so bright, that it can override the light coming from the monitor.

That monitor seems to be turned off (the screen shows in black ).

The monitor is turned away from the window. You can't see the screen at all, only the side pocket.

You mean the monitor in the ambulance? That's not true, because we clearly see it switched on in the video. The guy is blocking most of it, but we still see a small part.

I was thinking the cardiac monitor. Sorry! On two different pages :)

Where is that one?

You work as EMT right? Are you able to make a picture through the window when the ambulance lights are off on the inside, and the sun is shining outside? I am very curious if you would be able to see anything but reflection.

It's where you see the yellow reflection in the lower left corner. That's the cardiac monitor. And I work as a medic, not an EMT, but I haven't tried taking a picture outside. I asked about doing it (either here or on another forum) and mentioned that the ambulance I would use to do it in looks very different than the one MJ was in. The tint is extremely similar, however the concensus was it would be confusing to see a different style ambulance. It would be a van style instead of box style. If you'd like me to, I can probably do it on Friday or Saturday. MAYBE Tuesday, but it depends on the weather and I'm working an evening shift so I don't know how the sun would be.

What do you see different in the blood pressure thing, other than lighting and resolution?

The angle, the "black thing" on the side (left in one, right in the other)...

Flash may also explain why the monitor is on in the video, and looks off in the still.  The light of the flash is so bright, that it can override the light coming from the monitor.

That monitor seems to be turned off (the screen shows in black ).

The monitor is turned away from the window. You can't see the screen at all, only the side pocket.

You mean the monitor in the ambulance? That's not true, because we clearly see it switched on in the video. The guy is blocking most of it, but we still see a small part.

I was thinking the cardiac monitor. Sorry! On two different pages :)

What do you see different in the blood pressure thing, other than lighting and resolution?

The angle, the "black thing" on the side (left in one, right in the other)...

Flash may also explain why the monitor is on in the video, and looks off in the still.  The light of the flash is so bright, that it can override the light coming from the monitor.

That monitor seems to be turned off (the screen shows in black ).

The monitor is turned away from the window. You can't see the screen at all, only the side pocket.

Just wondering...
Do you think the cabinet from the pictures match the cabinet from the video? Wouldn't that white border show up in the pictures?

It's actually silver, not white. It's like a dull chrome. I don't know what exactly to call it, but it's been the same in all of the ambulances I've been in.

fordtocarr wrote:

I'm wondering if people's head goes into an ambulance first??
This is from TMZ with Joan Collins, and her head is in first.
http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/02/joan-coll ... air-party/

That glass is not polarized and ambulance lights are ON ;)

Okay, but, still being able to see in or not, lights or not, I wonder if head goes in first ALWAYS or not.

Head ALWAYS goes in first. Unless a bizarre circumstance such as a woman is labor where birth is imminent but you can't deliver on scene for some reason. However, this is still rarely done even in that rare instance. I haven't heard of anyone actually doing it, I just know it's something that can be done if need be. But even then, the head of the stretcher still goes in first, the woman just sits in the opposite direction. The stretcher can only go in one way, and this is standard where ever you go.

Why is Michael on red stretcher, i think it's not common.
When a patient laying in a ambulance the're always on that white bed (underneath the red stretcher in the still photo).

I agree with some of you i think it was a setting picture, because the interior of the ambulance doesn;t match the ambulance interior of the video( interior of the 71 ambulance).
for excample: the paramedics seat is on the wrong side if you compare, and is'nt common for a paramedic to sit on the left side of the patient?
It's not possible to mirror the interior when you don't get the whole image( one side picture).

i think  the patient is always  laying in the ambulance with his head towards the driver the paramdics who is on front of the head of the patient is sitting with his back towards the driver.

The red is actually orange, and it's a backboard. And the paramedic is seated appropriately. There's nothing odd about where the paramedics are sitting.

Yes i found out  later on today that ist's a backboard it's for protect the patients back and neck it's a hard surface.?
But what i mean by the paramedics seat it looks well at the pic with Michael but doesn't fit the video interior of the ambulance 71, because then the seat of the second paramedic. would be on the left side of Michael, in my opinion correct if i'm wrong please. i  hope you understand my point because englisch is not my native language as you have problably discoverd by now :)

It is a hard surface. It's used for moving patients, providing immobilization, and providing a hard surface for compressions (usually not all three of those things at once, but one or two).
For the seats, it does all fit. There's a CPR seat (it has other names) on the right side of the patient, a bench seat on the left side of the patient, and an airway seat at the head of the patient.