Hi everyone!! I'm sure most of you have seen me around the boards. I wanted to clear up some things for those who may not have read my posts regarding the ambulance, the 911 call, CPR, and paramedics. I know I've posted some of this stuff before, but because I post on this forum and another, I may not have posted the information I thought I did on this one. So I am cross posting this between forums so I know all of this information was given to both sites.
1. The ambulance didn't have its lights or sirens on.True and False. The ambulance DID have its lights on when leaving the residence.
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LoginIn the video (which I have no doubt you all have seen!! lol), you'll notice beginning around the :30 mark, you can see the lightbar above the back doors. The lights are on. At the 1:10 mark (especially noted at the 1:15 mark), you'll notice on the side of the ambulance has it's lights going as well.
Now about the sirens. You are correct. In the video, you do not see the sirens going. I've discussed before that it is a courtesy to not blare sirens with so many bystanders around. And because there was no traffic, there would have been no use for the sirens at that time. I've had so much respect from people on this forum that I truly appreciate it. However, I know some people doubt what I'm saying about the sirens. I want to explain something. Legally, anytime you have your lights on you really should have your sirens on as well. This refers to being in traffic and on a road. If I'm parked in someone’s driveway, just because I left my lights on doesn't mean I need to have my sirens blaring. I want that to be understood before I post this link.
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LoginI am the starter of this thread. I wanted you all to see unbiased opinions from other paramedics and EMTs from all over regarding sirens. Some bring up that fact that textbook, you should always have your sirens on when you have your lights on. However, everyone who states that also tells what they would realistically do. One user put it perfectly
“Basically, I use it when it'll be effective and I don't when it won't be effective or safe.”
So quite honestly, it would not be effective in the situation of the ambulance backing out. There’s no traffic to move out of the way.
2. The ambulance was not in a hurry.I talked about this WAY back when I first came into the hoax scene. My argument is that the driver needs to drive safely to the hospital. It would NOT have been safe for the driver to get hyphie and fly out of the driveway. I’m sure you all understand by now that the paramedics (and that idiot Murray) were in the back of the ambulance working on the patient. A medic is standing up doing CPR. Another medic is maintaining the airway and making sure it remains secure. They are actually working and moving back there.
It took the ambulance 6 minutes to transport to UCLA. Mapquest and Google Maps say that it should take 6-7 minutes to get from 100 North Carolwood Drive to UCLA. So it sounds like a normal time. We don’t know what traffic was like, so we can’t be sure that the ambulance didn’t have to deal with traffic and could have gotten there faster.
The biggest thing about that time that we don’t know is when the driver told dispatch they were transporting. There is no right or wrong answer to when the driver told dispatch. We don’t know if they were transporting when the ambulance began to back out, while the ambulance was backing out, or after the ambulance backed out. So technically, road transport time could be anywhere from 3-6 minutes. And 3-6 minutes is an awesome and fast transport time.
3. It’s illegal to use lights and sirens in a non-emergency.False. What is considered an emergency is subjective. As a paramedic, I make the decision whether or not to transport with lights and sirens. What I may decide to transport with, another medic may decide to transport without. Furthermore, in my system, if we are depleted of our ambulances, our dispatch may instruct us to transport even the most stupid things with lights and sirens. So if my partner is in the back with a drunk, and we are quickly being depleted of ambulances, when I tell the dispatcher I’m transporting without, they may come back and tell me to transport with in order to free up an ambulance. But going back to Michael, they were transporting with lights at least.
4. It’s against 911 policy to hang up before the ambulance arrives.True and False, but WAY more False. Against 911 policy? No, it’s not. If someone needs to be explained how to care for a patient, such as doing CPR, you SHOULD stay on the line. My boyfriend just went through EMD training. He is now AEMD (Advanced Emergency Medical Dispatch) certified. Benefit for me is I can get easy, straight answers from him that I know are going to be entirely reliable and updated. So here’s the thing. It is at the discretion of the dispatcher whether or not they need to hang up. A dispatcher could be talking to someone who is calling for something non-life threatening, but remains on the phone the entire time to help ease the caller. Many EMD dispatchers are also EMTs or paramedics. So when they are talking to the caller, they can kick into EMT/medic mode and ask questions about the patient. It’s a comfort thing.
Now in the case of Michael, the dispatcher was absolutely not wrong to hang up. He could have stayed on the line to ask questions, but this was not a necessity. There was no point in telling the doctor to do 600 compressions because he was already doing CPR. The point I’m trying to make is that while everyone says it is against protocol to hang up, this is not at all true.
5. The ambulance picture has been CONFIRMED fake.No, unfortunately it has not been. I know this has been brought up many times, and not just by myself, but I’m throwing it in here because I’m talking about the ambulance and whatnot. Brian Oxman stated he BELIEVES the photo is fake. He cannot confirm it is fake. The stage picture is the picture he believes the photo was photoshopped with. In MY OPINION, that is definitely not the most convincing picture. I’ve seen other photos that look more like the ambulance photo than that one. So in MY OPINION, for him to say that’s the photo that was used discredits him because I do not feel it matches. Again, those last two portions are my opinion, but that he can not 100% confirm that it’s fake is fact.
Now, I know there are some questions related to CPR in regards to Murray. I’m not going to answer those because I think Murray is the biggest idiot, and I have no idea why he did the things he did. Why did he do CPR on the bed? Because he’s an idiot. Why didn’t he have a defibrillator on scene? Because he’s an idiot. Why didn’t he have resuscitative equipment? Because he’s an idiot. Why did he wait to call 911? Because he’s an idiot. I have no logical explanation why Murray did the things he did.
6. 42 minutes on scene is absolutely unacceptable.Yes and no. It totally depends on the situation. 42 minutes on average, I will admit is longer than I’d want to spend on scene. However, there are calls in which you spend more time on scene than you ever imagined you could. My personal longest time was just about 3 hours
... and the call was featured in the New York Times
.
We now have more information to attribute to why the medics stayed on scene so long. This is actually courtesy of my boyfriend as he gave me the thought. This is my (and his) hypothetical time line that I’m sure you’ll agree makes sense.
5 minutes to get to MJ
25 minutes to get everything set and work him
5 minutes to call the hospital
10 minutes to get him down the stairs and loaded into the ambulance
That all totals 45 minutes.
Where am I getting these times? I gave 5 minutes to get to MJ because they would need to collect their equipment from the ambulance and bring it inside and upstairs. We know that it is protocol for LAFD to work a patient for 20 minutes before trying to call it. I allotted them the 20 minutes they are required in addition to some extra time (5 minutes) they may have worked him and in order to set up appropriate equipment and make decisions. I gave them 5 minutes to discuss with Murray to continue to work the patient and to call the hospital to explain the situation. Finally, they get 10 minutes to continue working the patient, get him downstairs, loaded into the ambulance, and the medics to get situated in the back. When you break it down, the 42 minutes doesn’t sound too farfetched.
7. Michael doesn’t look dead in the picture.I can’t comment on whether or not it looks like Michael now or from 20 years ago. But I can say that he doesn’t not look dead… does that make sense? I read somewhere that someone questioned my saying he could look dead or alive in the picture. This was not on the forum, and the user who knows what I’m talking about is more than welcome to contact me directly if they'd like!
In a nutshell, a nurse commented on the ambulance photo. They said I was an EMT, which I am not, I am a paramedic. Schooling wise, paramedics and RNs both spend 2 years in their studies (excluding bachelor paramedic degrees and BSNs). So technically, we’re on the same level. However, the nurse made the comment that she works in PACU (or the equivalent) and has seen people in cardiac arrest and says that they are essentially not a normal skin color. Here’s where I strongly beg to differ. I’ve seen dead people in many, many stages of death; seconds to minutes to hours to days to weeks. I’ve found people who were last seen the night before who merely look like they’re sleeping and others you cannot for a second mistake that they’re dead. I remember looking at one patient who had been worked for about 2 hours (it was a witnessed arrest) and I thought to myself “that’s the most alive looking dead person I’ve ever seen”. There is no set standard to say what a person will look like when they pass. And MJ would have been only 1-2 hours passed in that picture. With CPR being performed, lividity was not likely to be on major portions of the body. Also, he was intubated and I can say from numerous personal experiences that I’ve watched people go from straight up BLUE to a normal pink skin color in less than a minute after being intubated and ventilated. (Let’s also remember the ambulance window is tinted. Things ARE going to look darker than they would in normal lighting).
Now what makes my expertise on the subject more substantial? This is the field I work in. She works with post operative patients. You won’t find someone who is days dead in an operating room. Usually not even hours dead. So let me ask you this… would you ask me about anesthesia? Or would you rather ask an anesthesiologist? Who would have the better answer? Would you ask a neurologist about your child who hasn’t been feeling well? Or would you rather ask a pediatrician? Who would have the better answer? Do you see where I’m going with that? Note that this is also why I haven’t really made comments about the autopsy report among other things. While I do understand a good amount of medical terminology and conditions, I don’t know a darn thing about how an autopsy is supposed to be written. I prefer to comment about things I know about because they are my job.
So that’s my list. I want to reiterate a couple of things. First and foremost, I am not trying to discourage believers from believing. I want you to understand the logistics of the situation. Does it mean MJ is dead? No. Does it mean he’s alive? No. It’s just information. They could come out tomorrow and admit that it was all a hoax. That's why I want my information to be as objective as possible. So when I say why 42 minutes on scene was justified, if it was staged or real, it was still justified. When I describe that a dead person could look dead or alive (haha), regardless of if it was staged or real, a dead person coudl still look dead or alive. Know what I'm saying?
Also, I know there are other things that have been discussed regarding the ambulance, CPR, medics, and the 911 call. Most other questions I feel have been discussed enough (e.g. the equipment in the ambulance, the paramedic patches, etc.)
However, if there are any questions, even if it has been brought up a million times but you want clarification, please ask me. That’s what I’m here for!I also hope no one minds that this is cross posted. I just wanted to make sure I covered the bases in both forums and those who belong to one forum and not the other still get to read and respond to this.
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