Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Persons Of Interest => Everyone Else => Michael's Impersonators => Topic started by: mykidsmum on April 14, 2010, 12:12:38 AM
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I'm at the end of my rope. This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness. In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments. I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ. I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.
I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).
I can't deal with this selective belief anymore. This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years. We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double." even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof) The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not? but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart. It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson
I'll give it to you straight up. MJ, our hero...he hated his face. He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit. Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup. But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it. I on the other hand like MJ the way he was. A screwed up, loving, genius. All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.
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i appreciate all that you've done. you've really contributed in a huge and helpful way and i'm sorry some of the posts on here are upsetting you. i just try to steer clear of posts i don't agree with, since people will think what they want and they are entitled to having their own opinions. i don't know about the whole double theory. all i know for sure is that michael loved his fans, and with that knowledge my personal belief is that he would not use a double for events, awards shows and concerts where he would be interacting with fans. it's just my belief that he has the same amount of respect for us as we do for him. as for sending a double out as a distraction, i understand that. the twin theory, like you, i do not support. but, like i said before, everyone is entitled to their personal opinion and i respect everyone's views.
with that being said, i really hope you don't leave this forum. i do thank you for going out of your way to provide us information, whether it was ignored or accepted. i really do appreciate it.
much love
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I'm at the end of my rope. This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness. In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments. I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ. I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.
I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).
I can't deal with this selective belief anymore. This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years. We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double." even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof) The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not? but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart. It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson
I'll give it to you straight up. MJ, our hero...he hated his face. He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit. Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup. But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it. I on the other hand like MJ the way he was. A screwed up, loving, genius. All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.
100% true.Please DONT leave :(
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mykidsmum, don't leave. I support you 100% as well. There's alot of theories thrown out there that I don't agree with either, but I just turn away. MJ was a screwed up kid, that never grew up, and that's why we love him. So I understand where you are coming from my friend. I also was abused as a child, by my male teacher, and was belted up by my strict Italian father. On top of that, my mum died of Lupus when I was 14, and she only was 45. I too am screwed up....but have become very artistict to escape my pain. There were and still are many times that I would do anything to change the way I looked, but never had to money to do it.
The most troubled people in the world are the smartest. So no way could there be a double of MJ. He is unique in every way, no matter how often he changed his appearance.....It's probably because he CAN !!!! I hate everything about my body, but try hard to just live with the scars and memories of the abuse. MJ lives and loves , as only MJ can. I still find it very hard to show affection and I am 45 yo. There is only one Michael Jackson who is the master of disguise.......Love you MJ, and love you mykidsmum.... Just stick to the hard facts, and thanks for all your hard work...
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Yeah, what they said :lol: I couldnt say it any better. Please dont leave, I enjoy reading your posts and views. I too ignore the silliness and try to stick to reality, although my armageddon brain is in overload most of the time lately. :D
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Thanks for sharing your honest and heartfelt feelings. There are probably other forum members who feel the same way and can relate. It must have taken a lot of thought for you open up and rant in that manner.
Riddle me this. You or anyone else is free to respond. Why is it easy to believe that someone hoaxed his death ? Clues and signs. There are plenty to be found therefore hoax believers firmly believe in a hoax. Non-believers firmly believe that MJ is dead so they immediately and without question dismiss the hoax and believers. On the other hand, why is it difficult to believe that he would push the envelope so to speak with regards to career moves such as the use of doubles? Same logic is used by people who believe in doubles. They firmly recognize clues and signs. To them it isn't any more silly or far-fetched as their belief that MJ hoaxed his death.
I am somewhat confused by the conditions that many believers place on the hoax. I stand by my earler comment on another thread. If some people looked deep inside and asked a question they may get a scary answer. Many fans are afraid to consider doubles because that would reveal two things: 1) They didn't really know MJ as well as they thought and 2)They have been harboring feelings for some unknown person who may have occassionally pretended to be MJ. Many fans believe that MJ always acted or lived his life with them in mind. Not so therefore fans should be careful not take his actions so personal. MJ didn't call me for advice when he considered changing guitarists. Why should I think that he would consult with or openly reveal that he chose to sometimes use doubles.
Some people don't place conditions within the hoax. It's a hoax therefore the possibilties are wide open and limitless. There is no narrow litmus test for me. I cannot say ..."Well I believe this and anything outside of that belief is bogus." If that were the case then I would have clearly overlooked many clues since I am looking merely through my own eyes. it is with the help of others that I have been able to see many now "acceptable" hoax clues through fresh eyes.
To a great degree these conditions remind me of those awful BAM dates. If MJ doesn't appear by X date and according to that particular forum member's criteria then BAM she gets frustrated, impatient and is outta here. As stated many times by many people this isn't about us. It's all about MJ. He didn't plan a hoax with me in mind so I cannot possibly believe that he planned activities leading up to the hoax with me in mind. As wonderful of a person that I believe that I am, I am NOT that important in MJs world for him design a hoax based on my wants or reaction. I don't take his actions personal. It's his life therefore his choices and decisions.
mykidsmum..you have made some great contributions to the forum. Your insightful input will be missed.
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Thank you GirlSaturday... You said exactly what I was thinking, but my brains refused to connect with my fingers in order to type it out.
In my opinion the acceptance of doubles and some other issues discussed on these boards are hindered by feelings and emotions. I know, it's easy for me to say this because I'm not a fan. I'm glad I'm not a fan, as feelings and emotions can get in the way of a clinical investigation. It's for that reason that in a real life investigation those who are emotionally involved in a case are taken off that case, as their emotional involvement can and will affect the investigation.
I have been working with fans for over a decade now and became very familiar with the way a lot of fans react when something they wholeheartedly believed in turns out to be not true. A PR image is a creation, and in a lot of cases it has little to do with the artist's real personality. A PR image is only created to generate sales and money. It's an illusion. The entire entertainment industry is one big ILLusion, it's all about $$$$$. Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive. That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.
Please, keep this in mind when certain topics are discussed, and don't just reject things because you beLIEve that this is something someone would never do... ANYTHING is possible.
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Mykidsmon, I agree with you too. There are alot of threads & subjects that I can't relate to so I just stay off of them and don't comment. What gets me is all the controversy over the 02 Press Announcement; Sorry but that IS MJ and NOT a "Double". He's acting a little Tipsy cause he took something or had a few drinks first-that's all. Before public appearences I read he would usually visit Dr. Klein for facial filler injections (restyline, collagen, etc.) so the look of his face could fluctuate from a hollow look to a fuller, smooth look depending on his latest facial treatment. Don't let the irrationality of some posts & threads get to you, just skip over those and stick to the ones you can relate to. :roll:
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Thank you GirlSaturday... You said exactly what I was thinking, but my brains refused to connect with my fingers in order to type it out.
In my opinion the acceptance of doubles and some other issues discussed on these boards are hindered by feelings and emotions. I know, it's easy for me to say this because I'm not a fan. I'm glad I'm not a fan, as feelings and emotions can get in the way of a clinical investigation. It's for that reason that in a real life investigation those who are emotionally involved in a case are taken off that case, as their emotional involvement can and will affect the investigation.
I have been working with fans for over a decade now and became very familiar with the way a lot of fans react when something they wholeheartedly believed in turns out to be not true. A PR image is a creation, and in a lot of cases it has little to do with the artist's real personality. A PR image is only created to generate sales and money. It's an illusion. The entire entertainment industry is one big ILLusion, it's all about $$$$$. Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive. That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.
Please, keep this in mind when certain topics are discussed, and don't just reject things because you beLIEve that this is something someone would never do... ANYTHING is possible.
mo, you know i got mad love for you and souza. i really do appreciate you guys. however, i find it really disheartening the way the double threads turn out. it's always a war of words and photo comparisons from when michael was younger to pictures of him recently. it's all subjective and all speculation. i just wish people would respect each others opinions more. if we didn't have different thoughts and opinions, this world wouldn't go anywhere and be rather boring. just because i'm a fan does not mean i have the wool pulled over my eyes. i am open to possibilities, but i have my beliefs that i have concluded from what came out of michael's mouth directly. the love for his fans is proof enough for me that he wouldn't use a double at least for a concert. the stage was a second home, he said so himself. i don't think he'd give up that experience to feel the love that the crowd emitted to someone else who could look like him. and yes, anything is possible...because michael jackson is doing it- not a double. i just hope that people can share their opinions without being made feel like they're ignorant and blind because they don't agree. please believe me, i say this with no disrespect. much love.
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Mykidsmum,
I totally agree with you, so I will not repeat what you just wrote.
Like you, I have also considered leaving the forum as it hardly provides me with new insights or data. Most of the time it boils down to trying to debunk other people's ideas instead.
Some might believe they are doing a "clinical investigation", but from my point of view it's more like kindergarden. In particular the green man discussion, or the "identical doubles" discussion come across as extremely silly and immature and at the same time disrespectful towards Michael.
It's a fact Michael used doubles, but not identical doubles. Like some mentioned, he would use a double for stunts or as a general decoy for paparazzi, but not for performances or for instance official photoshoots. It's a matter of being able to relativate things. It is surgically or with the use of prosthetic make up simply not possible to create an identical double to the microscopic level. If it were, Michael would have had the perfect nose again without having been ridiculed by the tabloids and the rest of world.
The main reason most people recognize the person as Michael is because it IS Michael. This has nothing to do with feelings, as some in here are advocating.
I'm not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think it needs to be said. Some are delusional, not being able to recognise a person: everyone is Michael in disguise or an actor and Michael is a double. This is dissociation, not being able anymore to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, which are psychiatric symptoms of paranoid or schizophrenic nature ("seeing things"). It is no use trying to debunk such delusional perceptions, as these people really believe they see these things: to them, it's real.
It discredits the whole hoax discussion, which is probably also the main reason why the possibility of a hoax is hardly being discussed in the media.
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I stood away for a few weeks because all this is really very emotional for me and I don't want to be caught up in this too much. I don't know anything about recent developments at all. I'm happy you all are still here and believing :D .
Well, I agree with "mykidsmom", too. I don't believe in the doubles-theories. From tine to time in the past I saw Michael and I did not see the guy I love so much. He behaved strangely and I could not relate to him and feel for him like I used to. Sometimes I felt embarrassed about the way he appeared to be. I learned to live with that and of course I loved him nevertheless. One example was his appearance at the German "Wetten dass..? show in 1999. He did not do a performance he just set in the show to talk about the "Michael Jackson and friends" concerts - but he did not say one straight sentence. It was so embarrassing that I was not able to watch it through at once. I stopped the tape again and again. If someone had told me: "This is not Michael! This is a trainee-double!" I would have been relieved. But I did know it WAS Michael and I had to live with the fact, that he not always made the perfect appearance.
I don't know what was up with him on that specific day. And on other days, like the time he spent in Berlin when he received the Bambi-award. "It was not Michael who dangled his son over the balcony!" "Oh! I am happy to hear that. It must have been that trainee again."
Sometimes it was quite brave to understand that even I did not like what he did - he still was Michael.
Michael, of course, did use doubles. The ending of "Man in the Mirror" at the Dangerous concerts was a double and I did see exactly the moment when the double appeared. No! It was not Michael who made that stunt. Michael was sitting in one of those boxes. I even used to know its number.
And "Thriller" at the HIStory-tour. At the end it was not Michael - to me it was obvious. This double did not look like Michael the least bit.
One last question about the doubles-theory: where are those doubles now? It is hard enough to believe that Michael is hiding successfully. But those doubles must be hiding like him. :idea:
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I'm at the end of my rope. This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness. In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments. I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ. I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.
I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).
I can't deal with this selective belief anymore. This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years. We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double." even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof) The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not? but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart. It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson
I'll give it to you straight up. MJ, our hero...he hated his face. He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit. Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup. But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it. I on the other hand like MJ the way he was. A screwed up, loving, genius. All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.
all i can say is ditto - i love the way that he looks, flaws and all, you know my views on the doubles thing - the photos i have seen are mike
the way we have pulled him apart is shameful :?
if mike used standins/stunts for stage or the street, i could not care less he probably was not the first and will not be the last - probably normal in his industry. if it was all him every time to do promotions - good for him
as i have said before his best disguise is his own skin
i have said before and will get told off for this i suppose, but i think the doubles think does come up when there is a lull
and the lull is probably because he is gone
this is just my view i am not trying to convince anyone else.
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I
One last question about the doubles-theory: where are those doubles now? It is hard enough to believe that Michael is hiding successfully. But those doubles must be hiding like him. :idea:
That's a very good question!
Do they need more surgery now to get rid of Michael's looks?
I agree with mykidsmum 100%
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well ernest valentino said he was not going to do michael any more - now he has gone
he is not a double as such he does not look like him - though i would say moves like him (my view)
Carlo - so sweet about mike - is still performing as a tribute artist
Navi - dont like him - (re 2005 trial) - he is still out there
but are these the real doubles that everyone wants to talk about, i doubt it - i think pp think mike had a clone or replica - i dont believe that for one minute nor that he had a twin either. they hope that the twin died and mike is safe - thats probably not true. if someone died on 25th then it was mike.
pp just have bad hair days, bad face days - ugly and pretty days, pre surgery and post surgery, pre and post botox, pre and post beauty salon, pre stress - post stress days, pre - charge and post charge days, pre molestation days and post, pre show and post show days, pre jesus juice and post jesus juice days
some pp scrub up good
- thats life and my life as well.
sometimes you have to wonder if some on this site believe that mike existed at all.
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I would like to know the truth so I do read the threads.
The double theory only bothers me because If there was a double -
1) then Michael is not so special after all because there is more than one and he isn't unique.
2) it would be hard to believe that the allegations weren't true cos it is difficult to vouch for someone who is used to duping others
3) there would be no death hoax - cos if the original Michael was sick and died - they would have buried him quietly and the double would have continued in his place. No need for all this drama
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I'm not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think it needs to be said. Some are delusional, not being able to recognise a person: everyone is Michael in disguise or an actor and Michael is a double. This is dissociation, not being able anymore to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, which are psychiatric symptoms of paranoid or schizophrenic nature ("seeing things"). It is no use trying to debunk such delusional perceptions, as these people really believe they see these things: to them, it's real.
THAT was way out of line Raven. I have no problems with people stating their opinion and adding their personal opinion, but accusing your fellow forum members of suffering from mental diseases because their opinions and believes differ from yours is too much to accept and move on like nothing happened.
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your point 2, the allegations were false
look at the evidence - there was not evidence against mike (or a mike double)
the accusers were after money
be careful - its a mans reputation you are dealing with - the allegations were false, 13 june 2005 he walked out of court a free man - cleared of all, yes all the allegations
please dont forget that
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I'm not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think it needs to be said. Some are delusional, not being able to recognise a person: everyone is Michael in disguise or an actor and Michael is a double. This is dissociation, not being able anymore to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, which are psychiatric symptoms of paranoid or schizophrenic nature ("seeing things"). It is no use trying to debunk such delusional perceptions, as these people really believe they see these things: to them, it's real.
THAT was way out of line Raven. I have no problems with people stating their opinion and adding their personal opinion, but accusing your fellow forum members of suffering from mental diseases because their opinions and believes differ from yours is too much to accept and move on like nothing happened.
Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive. That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.
So what YOU say is not out of line? Fans that say Michael is Michael are disillusioned?
I think you're acknowledging that some are delusional, however the delusion is seeing doubles in EVERY of Michael's appearances and Michael in disguise in EVERY person: NOT that Michael is Michael.
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I'm not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think it needs to be said. Some are delusional, not being able to recognise a person: everyone is Michael in disguise or an actor and Michael is a double. This is dissociation, not being able anymore to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, which are psychiatric symptoms of paranoid or schizophrenic nature ("seeing things"). It is no use trying to debunk such delusional perceptions, as these people really believe they see these things: to them, it's real.
THAT was way out of line Raven. I have no problems with people stating their opinion and adding their personal opinion, but accusing your fellow forum members of suffering from mental diseases because their opinions and believes differ from yours is too much to accept and move on like nothing happened.
Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive. That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.
So what YOU say is not out of line? Fans that say Michael is Michael are disillusioned?
I think you're acknowledging that some are delusional, however the delusion is seeing doubles in EVERY of Michael's appearances and Michael in disguise in EVERY person: NOT that Michael is Michael.
Raven,
By only quoting a part of the paragraph I wrote you ripped my words out of context. I tend to call such a thing manipulation. Here's the entire paragraph:
I have been working with fans for over a decade now and became very familiar with the way a lot of fans react when something they wholeheartedly believed in turns out to be not true. A PR image is a creation, and in a lot of cases it has little to do with the artist's real personality. A PR image is only created to generate sales and money. It's an illusion. The entire entertainment industry is one big ILLusion, it's all about $$$$$. Reality hits hard, and a lot of fans prefer to dismiss reality to not get disillusioned, they prefer holding on to what they were told and to keep their dream alive. That's human nature, it's protecting yourself from feeling hurt and deceived, and I totally understand that.
I was talking about my personal experience with fans IN GENERAL, I did not say "Fans that say Michael is Michael are disillusioned".
As you KNOW we have posted morphs of photos of which we think is the Real Deal. You even replied in that thread, so you must have seen them. Therefor, stating "seeing doubles in EVERY of Michael's appearances and Michael in disguise in EVERY person" is complete nonsense.
I'm done with you.[/b]
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i am open to possibilities, but i have my beliefs that i have concluded from what came out of michael's mouth directly. the love for his fans is proof enough for me that he wouldn't use a double at least for a concert. the stage was a second home, he said so himself. i don't think he'd give up that experience to feel the love that the crowd emitted to someone else who could look like him. and yes, anything is possible...because michael jackson is doing it- not a double. i just hope that people can share their opinions without being made feel like they're ignorant and blind because they don't agree. please believe me, i say this with no disrespect. much love.
I totally agree with you. I thought about it all lot and I keep coming back to this point. I cannot believe he would use a double for this.
It's a fact Michael used doubles, but not identical doubles. Like some mentioned, he would use a double for stunts or as a general decoy for paparazzi, but not for performances or for instance official photoshoots. It's a matter of being able to relativate things. It is surgically or with the use of prosthetic make up simply not possible to create an identical double to the microscopic level. If it were, Michael would have had the perfect nose again without having been ridiculed by the tabloids and the rest of world.
The main reason most people recognize the person as Michael is because it IS Michael. This has nothing to do with feelings, as some in here are advocating.
You took the words right out of my mouth. I have watch many many pics on the double theory, and I truly believe it's always Michael and noone else. Sorry about that, and I dont want to offend anyone with my opinion. I hoped to see one day the differences you talk about it, but all I see is Michael.
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No matter how hard I try, I can't see the differences either...
And this has nothing to do with me not being open for all the possibilities, or with my emotional involvement...
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I actually liked what raven had to say. I think there is truth to it. I don't think she intended to use those terms as a clinical diagnosis but more along the lines of trying to explain what is going on here.
As for myself, I don't like being lumped under the heading of "fan." I like MJ...I like his music, I like the mystery of his life, I LOVE the drama and the fun of figuring him out. I don't wait in lines for his music and I certainly DON'T have all his albums. (I did in highschool...well, most of them). He fascinates me like all the GREATS in history fascinate me and I actually prefer to speak of and mull over his shortcomings and flaws because I believe these types of things have a larger role in who we are and who we portray ourselves to be in the public. So, I am not a "FAN" in the classical sense. I don't refuse to see things because Michael (oooh ahhh) would never do that...and for the record, I'm usually the one telling everyone that the way you all think he is...how he is in public, how he has crafted his persona...this is a bunch of bull! He was one of the biggest manipulators ever! I've had my fair share of "fans" tell me not to use that word about him...but it's the truth! He manipulated people for his own gain...not monetary, but for other reasons. Say what you want and I will say it again...it's his short comings and his flaws that make him human and it's his acute awareness of these things and his ability to hide his shortcomings and portray himself to the public how he wanted to be percieved...that is genius! It's never been done before to this extent and it will never be done again. MJ was a master who created the role for himself as the MOST FAMOUS MAN IN THE WORLD. Thanks everyone who had so many nice things to say.
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Mykidsmum,
I totally agree with you, so I will not repeat what you just wrote.
Like you, I have also considered leaving the forum as it hardly provides me with new insights or data. Most of the time it boils down to trying to debunk other people's ideas instead.
Some might believe they are doing a "clinical investigation", but from my point of view it's more like kindergarden. In particular the green man discussion, or the "identical doubles" discussion come across as extremely silly and immature and at the same time disrespectful towards Michael.
It's a fact Michael used doubles, but not identical doubles. Like some mentioned, he would use a double for stunts or as a general decoy for paparazzi, but not for performances or for instance official photoshoots. It's a matter of being able to relativate things. It is surgically or with the use of prosthetic make up simply not possible to create an identical double to the microscopic level. If it were, Michael would have had the perfect nose again without having been ridiculed by the tabloids and the rest of world.
The main reason most people recognize the person as Michael is because it IS Michael. This has nothing to do with feelings, as some in here are advocating.
I'm not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think it needs to be said. Some are delusional, not being able to recognise a person: everyone is Michael in disguise or an actor and Michael is a double. This is dissociation, not being able anymore to tell the difference between reality and fantasy, which are psychiatric symptoms of paranoid or schizophrenic nature ("seeing things"). It is no use trying to debunk such delusional perceptions, as these people really believe they see these things: to them, it's real.
It discredits the whole hoax discussion, which is probably also the main reason why the possibility of a hoax is hardly being discussed in the media.
that paragraph... is as far as i believe as ragards to a double.... only to clear away fans and paps so he can leave places in peace.... used as decoys.... never on stage..(well on stage at the end of a number only for about a minute.. eg. thriller in the HIStory Tour... and Dirty Diana during TII)
since we are on the topic... of it the thread going about the Children are Doubles or the Children have doubles is just sick and totally ridiculous... ok if some people wish to believe that then fine everyone to their own... i just find it obsurd and tbh the children are a topic that shouldnt really be touched
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So, I am not a "FAN" in the classical sense. I don't refuse to see things because Michael (oooh ahhh) would never do that...and for the record, I'm usually the one telling everyone that the way you all think he is...how he is in public, how he has crafted his persona...this is a bunch of bull! He was one of the biggest manipulators ever! I've had my fair share of "fans" tell me not to use that word about him...but it's the truth! He manipulated people for his own gain...not monetary, but for other reasons.
I am a fan, but not the kind that refuses to see things or say 'Michael would never do that' (except for the double-theory)
And I'm aware of him being a manipulator, but again: He never fooled people by using doubles in concerts or other public performances. I believe he used people that look like him to distract for example papz, but not more than that.
And I agree with Raven's words.
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@mykidsmum. I totally agree with you.
Michael Jackson was a troubled genious and thats why we all love him and are intrigued by him.. he was so complicated!!
In the Schmuley books he even conceded that himself, with the use of mannequins in his house. He said he knew something was wrong and that it wasnt right to act like that.
Michael gave us amazing joy in his performances and his voice.. but it came at a price. He was a perfectionist to the extreme and he was very insecure.
It is hard to believe when we look at BAD pictures as we see perfection.. Michael saw ugliness when he could bare to look in the mirror. And unfortunately, there were many plastic surgeons ready to take his cash and do unnecessary surgeries.
The make up, i believe, was a reaction to the Vitiligo. He started wearing it in Bad era as a reaction to his changing skin. He also used it as a "mask" - to hide from the World. Same as his sunglasses, hats and masks... he didnt want to be stared at all the time.
Michael also had major OCD... he had an obsessive nature. He was obssessed over his work and his music and his dancing which gave the world positive gifts, but when he used his obsession against himself it had a self destructive effect.
Michael was a human being. He had many gifts, many positives.. but also had negatives and flaws.. most of which were all in his own head. He was fighting his own inner demons.
I identify with that.. ive had my own demons to battle - so i understand Michael on that level. And it makes me love him more.
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@mykidsmum. I totally agree with you.
Michael Jackson was a troubled genious and thats why we all love him and are intrigued by him.. he was so complicated!!
In the Schmuley books he even conceded that himself, with the use of mannequins in his house. He said he knew something was wrong and that it wasnt right to act like that.
Michael gave us amazing joy in his performances and his voice.. but it came at a price. He was a perfectionist to the extreme and he was very insecure.
It is hard to believe when we look at BAD pictures as we see perfection.. Michael saw ugliness when he could bare to look in the mirror. And unfortunately, there were many plastic surgeons ready to take his cash and do unnecessary surgeries.
The make up, i believe, was a reaction to the Vitiligo. He started wearing it in Bad era as a reaction to his changing skin. He also used it as a "mask" - to hide from the World. Same as his sunglasses, hats and masks... he didnt want to be stared at all the time.
Michael also had major OCD... he had an obsessive nature. He was obssessed over his work and his music and his dancing which gave the world positive gifts, but when he used his obsession against himself it had a self destructive effect.
Michael was a human being. He had many gifts, many positives.. but also had negatives and flaws.. most of which were all in his own head. He was fighting his own inner demons.
I identify with that.. ive had my own demons to battle - so i understand Michael on that level. And it makes me love him more.
Well said, and you are so right...
Just like you I can understand him, and in some ways I can compare him and his problems with my own problems and life, and you know what? It's very hard, sad and confronting to know, read and hear what he's been through...
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I hope you're still around... I agree with you 100%. The whole "doubles" things really urks me and i just choose not to read them. When people say that was not MJ at the O2 conference, I get angry. But i shouldn't. It's lame.
I just want you to know you're not alone in your thinking, a lot of us stay silent and don't speak up regarding how silly some things are around here.
I do believe that Michael had body dismorphia. :cry:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/body-d ... er/DS00559 (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/body-dysmorphic-disorder/DS00559)
it disturbs me how such a deeply caring, beautiful soul can hate what he sees when we see the opposite :(
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I do believe that Michael had body dismorphia. :cry:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/body-d ... er/DS00559 (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/body-dysmorphic-disorder/DS00559)
it disturbs me how such a deeply caring, beautiful soul can hate what he sees when we see the opposite :(
It's really, really sad...
And I'm only reading the double threads because I'm trying to see what they see...
Unsuccesful though...
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well MKM I agree with ALL what you say, except im open to the doubles thing for safety reasons mostly, or other reasons im not aware of.. I cant claim I know him or know what he did, but Im not convinced about when and where we saw the doubles...
I used to dismiss it because I felt "cheated" when I saw MJ doing cutesy things and some ppl are telling me its not him LOL..and I do think sometimes ppl take it a lil far
however..In TII I do see differences and I wonder all the time if it was his idea or AEG/sony.... (just based in the time frame of filming it..he cant change that fast...unless someones not telling the truth about when it was shot)
I agree about him being troubled and I HATE it when people dont see that and are denying his pain and things he went through..
and I did stay away from the kids have doubles, I just stated there are imposters on the web...so I know not all pics are of them, but when theyre with their dad or family I do think its them
and I do think ppl should investigate things further, just so we can have the truth.. and Ill be open to it no matter what it is...
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Mykidsmum...I do agree with you. I am sorry to say this, and please dont bash me for my opinion, because I have been doing the same, but I think the big problem in the forums is there is no subject to investigate anymore regarding June 25th, 2009. Many people have stopped investigating the ambulance, the memorial, the funeral, autopsy results, etc and everything related to June 25th. Only a few are still investigating those subjects. All stones have been turned. Many have stopped investigating HOW MJ hoaxed his death, and we've resort to WHY he did it. Its easier support the death hoax theory by asking WHY and not HOW, because we dont have to prove it with a body or MJ's return. Please note that my post isn't directed toward Mo and Souza's belief on the existence of a double, because this is happening in other hoax forums I belong to. Maybe there are doubles, but like I asked in another thread...I want to know how were they of benefit to MJ on June 25th. Michael Jackson maybe had a dozen identical doubles for safety reasons, or heck, maybe to perform for him when he couldnt, but how does this prove that he, Michael Jackson, Joe and Katherine Jackson's son, didn't die on June 25th? :?
Mykidsmum...please stay with us. I really enjoy reading your inputs. :)
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your point 2, the allegations were false
look at the evidence - there was not evidence against mike (or a mike double)
the accusers were after money
be careful - its a mans reputation you are dealing with - the allegations were false, 13 june 2005 he walked out of court a free man - cleared of all, yes all the allegations
please dont forget that
Of course, I do believe that Michael was innocent. Have been one of the few who never believed any allegations since the beginning and did not need any FBI files or anything to prove it. I know Michael was innocent.
The reason why the defense got through the case was also because of the time factor. Michael was out of the country at the time of the supposed allegations. If there is a double, his alibi becomes non existent. That is why I am saying, proceed with caution, if our forum here proves that there is a double, imagine what all can be pinned on Michael or the double.
I think the fans will want to protect Michael's reputation. As much as half the world loves and adores him, the other half hates his guts and will find anything to discredit his talent or his ideals. A double theory is scary because of this. Michael needs love right now, not the dissections.
I don't think the double theory benefits the hoax at all. If there was a double, there would be no reason to fake death so that one could come back. It makes no sense.
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mykidsmum I totally agree with you.
It seems that the double thing is not going to end until all of us say OK, there were doubles.
I think it´s enough to me.
Whoever think there are doubles can think it and express it, so I don´t understand the amount of recurrent new threads that multiply themselves to insist again and again. Can´t new arguments be added on the more that enough existent double threads?
People who don´t THINK, not taken by feelings and all that... people who don´t THINK that way, like us, we are not openning thousands of threads (apart from this and maybe another) to say: Proof there was no double, The official no double thread, I think definitely there´s no double, the real deal there was no double, MJ never had a twin, MJ mug shot no double, the kids no double and so on and on... I´ve lost the account.
I´ve seen very interesting investigation line thread being lost among all that...
Of course, here there are freedom to keep on with the double thing.
This is my opinion, this is exhausting... what are we gonna do...
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Mykidsmum...I do agree with you. I am sorry to say this, and please dont bash me for my opinion, because I have been doing the same, but I think the big problem in the forums is there is no subject to investigate anymore regarding June 25th, 2009. Many people have stopped investigating the ambulance, the memorial, the funeral, autopsy results, etc and everything related to June 25th. Only a few are still investigating those subjects. All stones have been turned. Many have stopped investigating HOW MJ hoaxed his death, and we've resort to WHY he did it. Its easier support the death hoax theory by asking WHY and not HOW, because we dont have to prove it with a body or MJ's return. Please note that my post isn't directed toward Mo and Souza's belief on the existence of a double, because this is happening in other hoax forums I belong to. Maybe there are doubles, but like I asked in another thread...I want to know how were they of benefit to MJ on June 25th. Michael Jackson maybe had a dozen identical doubles for safety reasons, or heck, maybe to perform for him when he couldnt, but how does this prove that he, Michael Jackson, Joe and Katherine Jackson's son, didn't die on June 25th? :?
Mykidsmum...please stay with us. I really enjoy reading your inputs. :)
i do agree with that..... the clues have sort of dried up.... most of the topics have been looked into..... i felt that there and probably is nothing left to focus on the the doubles thing may have been created again just to investigate something....
lets hope something happens in june
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I actually liked what raven had to say. I think there is truth to it. I don't think she intended to use those terms as a clinical diagnosis but more along the lines of trying to explain what is going on here.
As for myself, I don't like being lumped under the heading of "fan." I like MJ...I like his music, I like the mystery of his life, I LOVE the drama and the fun of figuring him out. I don't wait in lines for his music and I certainly DON'T have all his albums. (I did in highschool...well, most of them). He fascinates me like all the GREATS in history fascinate me and I actually prefer to speak of and mull over his shortcomings and flaws because I believe these types of things have a larger role in who we are and who we portray ourselves to be in the public. So, I am not a "FAN" in the classical sense. I don't refuse to see things because Michael (oooh ahhh) would never do that...and for the record, I'm usually the one telling everyone that the way you all think he is...how he is in public, how he has crafted his persona...this is a bunch of bull! He was one of the biggest manipulators ever! I've had my fair share of "fans" tell me not to use that word about him...but it's the truth! He manipulated people for his own gain...not monetary, but for other reasons. Say what you want and I will say it again...it's his short comings and his flaws that make him human and it's his acute awareness of these things and his ability to hide his shortcomings and portray himself to the public how he wanted to be percieved...that is genius! It's never been done before to this extent and it will never be done again. MJ was a master who created the role for himself as the MOST FAMOUS MAN IN THE WORLD. Thanks everyone who had so many nice things to say.
I agree with you MKM, but I'm still 50:50 on 02 guy. I see relevance in both arguments and I find it all very interesting. I need to find the truth but I don't like being put down because I may disagree with someone's point of view. I can't leave the forums though.
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there is no subject to investigate anymore regarding June 25th, 2009.
Exactly :!:
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i have said before and will get told off for this i suppose, but i think the doubles think does come up when there is a lull
and the lull is probably because he is gone
this is just my view i am not trying to convince anyone else.
I agree totally with this, I haven't been here that long. But when all the news stopped, the forums became dull and I thought maybe I could finally get back to living a normal life. Then suddenly these threads started with the new doubles videos and it all took off.
At that time I wondered, just like the media, are we being manipulated here. I TRUST MO & SOUZA, but what about other posters. We are now aware of all this mind control stuff and that scares the hell out of me. What if this distraction is being created to avoid us finding out the truth. Its a wicked world today.
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I agree with you MKM, but I'm still 50:50 on 02 guy. I see relevance in both arguments and I find it all very interesting. I need to find the truth but I don't like being put down because I may disagree with someone's point of view. I can't leave the forums though.
Check this thread out : viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7370 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7370)
You will never doubt again when you see the evidence on there.
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@mykidsmum. I totally agree with you.
Michael Jackson was a troubled genious and thats why we all love him and are intrigued by him.. he was so complicated!!
In the Schmuley books he even conceded that himself, with the use of mannequins in his house. He said he knew something was wrong and that it wasnt right to act like that.
Michael gave us amazing joy in his performances and his voice.. but it came at a price. He was a perfectionist to the extreme and he was very insecure.
It is hard to believe when we look at BAD pictures as we see perfection.. Michael saw ugliness when he could bare to look in the mirror. And unfortunately, there were many plastic surgeons ready to take his cash and do unnecessary surgeries.
The make up, i believe, was a reaction to the Vitiligo. He started wearing it in Bad era as a reaction to his changing skin. He also used it as a "mask" - to hide from the World. Same as his sunglasses, hats and masks... he didnt want to be stared at all the time.
Michael also had major OCD... he had an obsessive nature. He was obssessed over his work and his music and his dancing which gave the world positive gifts, but when he used his obsession against himself it had a self destructive effect.
Michael was a human being. He had many gifts, many positives.. but also had negatives and flaws.. most of which were all in his own head. He was fighting his own inner demons.
I identify with that.. ive had my own demons to battle - so i understand Michael on that level. And it makes me love him more.
Dancingthedream: you made me cry......that is so true! He was fighting his own inner demons!
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i have said before and will get told off for this i suppose, but i think the doubles think does come up when there is a lull
and the lull is probably because he is gone
this is just my view i am not trying to convince anyone else.
I agree totally with this, I haven't been here that long. But when all the news stopped, the forums became dull and I thought maybe I could finally get back to living a normal life. Then suddenly these threads started with the new doubles videos and it all took off.
At that time I wondered, just like the media, are we being manipulated here. I TRUST MO & SOUZA, but what about other posters. We are now aware of all this mind control stuff and that scares the hell out of me. What if this distraction is being created to avoid us finding out the truth. Its a wicked world today.
Not always is like that.
I´m sure you´ll remember moments with lack of news, the double thing emerging (we agree on that)...
and still some people trying to go ahead with new lines shadowed for the overwhelming double thing.
Also very interesting threads about whatever turnning into double thing threads.
Arabian, I´ve seen your work for instance suffer from that from time to time.
And it doesn´t happen with other kind of issues such as MJ was healthy or not, was he bankrupted or not... I don´t know...
I just don´t understand the deal most of the times...
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In my opinion the acceptance of doubles and some other issues discussed on these boards are hindered by feelings and emotions. I know, it's easy for me to say this because I'm not a fan. I'm glad I'm not a fan, as feelings and emotions can get in the way of a clinical investigation. It's for that reason that in a real life investigation those who are emotionally involved in a case are taken off that case, as their emotional involvement can and will affect the investigation.
?
Both being a fan and not, can be good and bad for the investigation.
My thoughts about the double thing has nothing to do with feelings and emotions as it would be the same for me (not because I put them apart). I´m sure many people think that way emotions apart.
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@mykidsmum. I totally agree with you.
Michael Jackson was a troubled genious and thats why we all love him and are intrigued by him.. he was so complicated!!
In the Schmuley books he even conceded that himself, with the use of mannequins in his house. He said he knew something was wrong and that it wasnt right to act like that.
Michael gave us amazing joy in his performances and his voice.. but it came at a price. He was a perfectionist to the extreme and he was very insecure.
It is hard to believe when we look at BAD pictures as we see perfection.. Michael saw ugliness when he could bare to look in the mirror. And unfortunately, there were many plastic surgeons ready to take his cash and do unnecessary surgeries.
The make up, i believe, was a reaction to the Vitiligo. He started wearing it in Bad era as a reaction to his changing skin. He also used it as a "mask" - to hide from the World. Same as his sunglasses, hats and masks... he didnt want to be stared at all the time.
Michael also had major OCD... he had an obsessive nature. He was obssessed over his work and his music and his dancing which gave the world positive gifts, but when he used his obsession against himself it had a self destructive effect.
Michael was a human being. He had many gifts, many positives.. but also had negatives and flaws.. most of which were all in his own head. He was fighting his own inner demons.
I identify with that.. ive had my own demons to battle - so i understand Michael on that level. And it makes me love him more.
Dancingthedream: you made me cry......that is so true! He was fighting his own inner demons!
sounds like an obituary :cry:
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I would probably call myself a fan but that does not mean I'm blind, in denial or delusional. Even if Michael would've told a lie sometimes, indeed been a drug addict, "cheated" on Debbie, been manipulative, etc. I would still love him the same (i.e alot ;) ). I love the whole package that is Michael Jackson. These past 10 months I have (and probably many of you guys too) discovered new things about Michael that I didn't know about before, not because I think he wouldn't do this or that but simply because I didn't research it as much before. Porn at Neverland, secret girlfriends, discussing one's love life with friends, the love for KFC :lol: etc, I know these things are apart of Michael's private life but I have to admit that I love reading about it. It brings joy to my heart to know that Michael did manage to have some "normality" in his life (although many refuse to believe these things putting more pressure on the man we're supposed to support and love), I for one truly believed him when he said he wanted to be able to just go grocery shopping.
I could watch videos of Michael doing absolutely nothing or listen to him talking about whatever forever, I guess that's why I'd call myself a fan. Someone mentioned being embarrassed for Michael and not wanting to watch his appearances sometimes and I understand that people react/perceive things differently but isn't that a bit harsh on Michael? I'm sure people's expectations also contributed to Michael's secluded and what some people might call "odd" behaviour. We all do mistakes and behave strangely sometimes the big difference is that Michael's mistakes get scrutinized by the rest of the world.
I do not believe in the doubles or twin theory and yes, to me it can become very frustrating. Sometimes one just wants to say wtf that's bs but I chose not to because I believe that is very disrespectful. I respect other people's opnions (as long as they're not of malicious nature) and if I want to present my disagreeing opinion I try to do it in a respectful way. Sorry for the long post :P .
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:D *claps in agreement*
yay. I HATE these couble/clone/twin theories. I just cant get my head round it.. why the hell would the jackson family hide Michael's "twin" from birth.. at that point they had no idea he would become famous.
It make NO LOGICAL SENSE.
Ill admit Michael had flaws, so does everyone. HE IS HUMAN. And "screwed up" as you said... hmm.. yeah I guess. In ways :lol: .... but then... only cause the rest of the world is "normal" and who would want to be "normal" anyways. If everyone in the world was "normal" it would be the most boring place ever! Im live in my own "screwed up" world.. and I like it here! Michael is welcome any time!!
Honestly. Ive never met a more random person than myself. Literally. Except maybe my best friend. Shes pretty screwed up too. :D We just like to bring something different, unique to the world haha... (now youre getting all kinds of crazy pictures of me...trust me.. I do look normal. I just act about 1/2 my age...its fun. you should try it sometime).
So... clones/twins in my mind are a NO GO area. Sure I know Michael has used a double for a few stunts in the past.. maybe more than we know. but NO WAY is Michael as we know him for the last.. 20 years (or whatever it was someone was throwing out there) a constant doulbe. Dont you think someone would have noticed by now!?
Lord... what is this world coming to!
Sure some pictures seem strange. But yes different lighting, angles etc can change a picture.. & if you saw me when i first woke up in the morning compared to say.. half way through the day you would not know it was the same person! (enter twin/double theory here....)
*sigh* I think Ive said my piece.
Love you Michael.. just as you are :D
LOVE.
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@XspeechlessX Your post was lovely. And i agree...
All Michael ever wanted was to be loved and accepted.. just how he was... warts and all!! :D
And the vast majority of his fans and admirers do, i believe.. accept him just how he is!
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What I love about you @mykidsmum is your honesty, your skill in communicating your thoughts and digging for evidence from your circle of sources and experience. I truly hope you will continue to push the envelope because it seems the more we dig the life of Michael Jackson seems like a bottomless pit (not in a negative way). When discussion dries up on this forum I usually scout around elsewhere, but eventually there's action here again and I just enjoy and digest all the meat here. What I so love about the whole hoax and especially this forum is the brutal raw emotion displayed, the passion for the man, who I love more every day. And on analyzing that someone just previous to me, said something like how Michael's not being comfortable in his own skin and thrown onto the world's stage from childhood, has brought about his attempts to "fix things". If we had the money to fix our own issues we have with ourselves we probably would do crazy things too. Michael so represents humanity for me, its vulnerability, its beauty and shame, its fears and love for humor, wit and creativity. I wish I was a better communicator but I still enjoy trying and love the challenges of using my brain in this ultimate mindgame. Makes me feel very alive and glad to be here at this particular time and place in history! It's all so surreal all this discussion about things I don't think could or would be talked about with any other human ever! Myself I have come from an abusive childhood, have always tended to gravitate to the undercurrants, conspiracy, the other side of the story that the majority orthodox would reject. For that reason I have for my inner thoughts and interests been very alone, since my family, friends, acquaintances totally would think I was crazier than they even suspected. I have been blessed with a husband and 3 kids who love me and tolerate me spending much time here, although not agreeing that MJ is alive or amazing. MJ pulls something from deep within me that is so satisfying....and I feel so blessed to be part of this family here. So I hope you will continue to post, not get bored or turned off. I agree the investigation seems to be drying up and we are continually waiting for our next feeding like helpless birdies. Today's yeild showed me there is still so much more to find (down the bunny hole)...and there is so much collective brilliance here, every single one of you. Just like a real family there is sometimes friction and telling each other off, but afterwards the beautiful making up times. There's a lot of love on this site and Michael would be/ is proud I'm sure. Sorry this is so long. BTW I liked this comment about doubles--it's so true.
I would like to know the truth so I do read the threads.
The double theory only bothers me because If there was a double -
1) then Michael is not so special after all because there is more than one and he isn't unique.
2) it would be hard to believe that the allegations weren't true cos it is difficult to vouch for someone who is used to duping others
3) there would be no death hoax - cos if the original Michael was sick and died - they would have buried him quietly and the double would have continued in his place. No need for all this drama
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@XspeechtlessX:I was afraid to say those words, but you did and you are so right! It's a no go for me too!
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One more thing to consider in the spirit of open-mindedness as we discuss fake vs real...
Recap: Many forum members reject the idea of doubles. I get it I get I get it. :lol:
What I don't get is how easily some hoax forum members here and elsewhere can believe in the tweets and forum posts from so-called friends, insiders and occassionally "MJ" himself. People can believe in and follow a fake MJ on twitter or a forum yet not believe in a real live double perfoming in concert. That I really don't get.
Over the past 10 months many amazing things have occurred regarding false people and their false information. Some of you may be unaware that there was a period several months ago when trolls invaded the forums and created all sorts of havoc. These people are tricky and very good at what they do.They would provide cryptic messages and leave myterious comments. Many forum members became excited and created all sorts of wonderful BAM dates afterward to follow them. Then there were the twitter accounts that had "MJ" in the name so fans were quickly believing that Michael Jackson was tweeting them personally. My favorite was when a "Michael Jackson" appeared on another forum and forum members started begging this person to PM them so that they could provide phone numbers to receive private phone calls. I witnessed these reactions. It is not made up. Then there was the scary and dangerous period when forum members received PMs from people who offered to introduce them to MJ but requested secret meetings to get to know them first. A few people got sucked into that trick and later regretted it. Again I'm not making this up. If it weren't so blatantly sad, it might be considered comical. These were not just one or two people being tricked and hurt but dozens...maybe more.
Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert? :lol:
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@XspeechlessX Your post was lovely. And i agree...
All Michael ever wanted was to be loved and accepted.. just how he was... warts and all!! :D
And the vast majority of his fans and admirers do, i believe.. accept him just how he is!
Awwh thank you :D
Nice to see someone agrees with me...
@Kuki.. thank you too . (:
L.O.V.E
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I am a fan of Michael, but I'm not a fan 'extremist' to give it some name, in this forum I have come across views and topics with which I agree, and do not read or not to comment for me enough. If you believe that Michael planned this long, how did all this square for this?, Dates, events and more. I disagree with people who say that Michael would not do one thing or another, how do we know?,. Do you know personally?, And I think with this I am not disrespecting the theme of double think they exist, maybe too much makeup or surgery, so I do not know.
When we discover that someone else shares our values, opinions, habits or hobbies we are happy and feel close to her. However, when he says or does something that contradicts our opinion, thought, beliefs or values we can feel distant, disappointed or dissatisfied. ;)
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I stopt advising people to look at this forum, just because I think when they see all those topics about doubles they must think we're nuts. There's The Official Double topic, but that seems not enough. Every day new topics about doubles come up and it's getting very annoying to me.
I never believed he used doubles (only decoy's like Navi).
All the pictures I looked at, I never saw anyone else but Michael Jackson himself, also at the O2 Arena.
Just 1 question: When Michael Jackson was alive Why noone, really noone, for all those years, ever doubted it was really Michael?
Using doubles for so long is a secret that can't be kept for so long IMHO.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2ebaamu.jpg)
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I feel like this hoax has opened the Pandora's box...all subjects can be discussed. To me the most important is to not hurt Michael and to not be disrespecful. As long as this line is followed it's ok for me. Regarding the double theory I follow the thread but I don't post because I really have no idea fixed on this one and I feel like the interpretations go sometimes too far. I'm really speechless on this subject.
The first time I read it, it disturbed me because, like many, I said to myself well maybe it's real I don't really know MJJ. In a way it's true. I never met him, I never talked to him. But we have enough of him through his songs, his interviews, his humanitarian activities to have an idea of who he is and deep inside I have a strong feeling of love for him. I know for sure that it cannot be wrong, I know that Michael is a very good person and this is all I need to know. Whatever happens next, whatever the reason is for this hoax I'll be with him.
Now to me the most important thing is the why of this hoax ? I don't know if the double theory will help us to discover the truth, maybe, and for that reason it has to be investigated. Maybe we will have to wait until Michael's return to know the whole truth. Because to me the answer to the why is what will close this Pandora's box forever.
God bless you.
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Its all for LOVE!
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I totally agree with you mykidsmun
A.M.O.R
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I actually liked what raven had to say. I think there is truth to it. I don't think she intended to use those terms as a clinical diagnosis but more along the lines of trying to explain what is going on here.
As for myself, I don't like being lumped under the heading of "fan." I like MJ...I like his music, I like the mystery of his life, I LOVE the drama and the fun of figuring him out. I don't wait in lines for his music and I certainly DON'T have all his albums. (I did in highschool...well, most of them). He fascinates me like all the GREATS in history fascinate me and I actually prefer to speak of and mull over his shortcomings and flaws because I believe these types of things have a larger role in who we are and who we portray ourselves to be in the public. So, I am not a "FAN" in the classical sense. I don't refuse to see things because Michael (oooh ahhh) would never do that...and for the record, I'm usually the one telling everyone that the way you all think he is...how he is in public, how he has crafted his persona...this is a bunch of bull! He was one of the biggest manipulators ever! I've had my fair share of "fans" tell me not to use that word about him...but it's the truth! He manipulated people for his own gain...not monetary, but for other reasons. Say what you want and I will say it again...it's his short comings and his flaws that make him human and it's his acute awareness of these things and his ability to hide his shortcomings and portray himself to the public how he wanted to be percieved...that is genius! It's never been done before to this extent and it will never be done again. MJ was a master who created the role for himself as the MOST FAMOUS MAN IN THE WORLD. Thanks everyone who had so many nice things to say.
Very well said, I agree. Michael is a imperfect human like all of us, which means he has flaws like us. I know the public persona of Michael because it is so obvious for all of us to see, thus the purpose it for us to see what he wants us to see, and only what he wants us to see. Of course if we are being realistic about him, we know that there is the other part of his life the private part, in which is private for a reason, and I would bet that the private part of Michael is very different, it is the reality... I cannot boast that I know Michael because I do not, and I believe he had a myriad of issues, one being his facial features, at which he had the luxury of money to change it, his money affored him many things, including the drugs he chose to use. I do not believe anyone forced him to use the drugs, and do his plastic surgery, so that means he chose to do these things, and therfore is the one responsible, for the repercussions that come with these decisions. This being said, I do not like the word fan myself, I prefer to say I admire Michael, or at least what I know of him so far, good or bad anyway.
It is said that if someone can accept the bad things about us, without judgement, and tries to help us better ourselves (if we want to be helped) is a true friend indeed.
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I'm at the end of my rope. This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness. In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments. I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ. I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.
I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).
I can't deal with this selective belief anymore. This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years. We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double." even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof) The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not? but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart. It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson
I'll give it to you straight up. MJ, our hero...he hated his face. He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit. Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup. But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it. I on the other hand like MJ the way he was. A screwed up, loving, genius. All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.
RAH RAH REE!! I am standing up in GLEE!!! I totally agree with you. I have been so sick of all the double talk. I agree he may have used a ocassional decoy but not in doubles. I am sick to death of all the doppleganger stuff. I actually pushed myself away from MJHD site some because of those posts. I was sick of it. Thank you for this post! I loved it!! Michael i love you no matter what. No matter how no matter when. I just love you. PERIOD.
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To mykidsmum....
Can you hear it?
This is me.
Giving you a STANDING OVATION!
Well said. :mrgreen:
I have never believed in the doubles theory. Never will.
I have never believed in the twins theory. Never will.
I have never believed in anything related to the Illuminati, NWO, etc. (not saying they don't exist---because I don't know if they do or not and I don't care. But IF they do, I don't think they have any involvement in whatever happened on June 25.) Never will.
I have never believed that Dave Dave is MJ on LKL. Never will.
I have never believed in a green screened funeral at FL. Never will.
I have never believed in the MJ-Jumping-Out-of-the-Coroner's Van video. Never will.
I have never believed that MJ's "body" moved in the helicopter (because if he is dead, he can't move...and if he's alive...he would NOT need to be in that helicopter!). Never will.
I have never believed in many other things that a lot of beLIEvers seem to cling to, simply because I don't need to, and I never will.
Know what I DO believe in?
Michael Jackson
I also believe that none of the other items listed above need to be true in order for this hoax to be real. I also believe that if you DO believe in those things, hey, more power to ya. I will not disrespect you. And that which irritates me will make me stronger if I just avoid those threads. ;) And believe me when I say, that's something I do often.
What I see as the biggest challenge for most of us, and I've said this before, is that there are simply limits to what kind of "investigation" can actually be done solely via the Internet. There is only so much information that can be found online. So as someone else has said, we've turned over pretty much all the stones. And in a lot of ways, we've hit a brick wall, in my opinion. And the result of that is re-hashing of posts we've dissected all too many times, and the exploration of topics which are shaky, at best. And it has made me want to leave the community too a time or two.
Problem for me is that even though I'm pretty sure Michael is alive, I'm not 100% convinced. I keep hoping that by staying in touch here and with my own digging online, that eventually I'll find that one bit of information that tips the scales for me...that convinces me...one way or the other. Because then, and only then, will I find any peace. The truth is that if I knew for sure, with no doubts, that Michael is alive, I wouldn't need to come here anymore. I'd be content because I know the truth. And if I knew he was dead, with no doubts, I'd feel the same, because I've really already accepted that he could be gone and made my peace with that possibility.
My best advice for everyone is what I continue to say...don't search for evidence of the hoax....SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH. It will make you more objective. Use logic. Use reason. Use discretion. Be rational. Be thoughtful. And hey, being hopeful doesn't hurt either. And remember this: if Michael is alive, we can hurt him just as much as help him by what we say in this community, and in what we do. And if he is dead, there are a lot of "theories" and "evidence" that could be considered disrespectful to Michael, his memory, and his legacy. And since his children are part of his legacy, it's important to remember that one day they WILL read this stuff (if they don't already), so IF he is dead, they should be a very important consideration in what we say here.
Respect to all.
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I know Michael Jackson since I'm 12...I never saw doubles or had the feeling he was using a twin...
I only saw a suffering man, trying to deal with an image he hated, so much loved coming from the outside, but no love for himself inside. This is why we saw him experience so many faces, so many make up, it was a never ending job to try to love what he saw in the mirror.
Why should we need a double theory to pictures that don't look the same ?
I don't consider Michael being a nice person that "would never do such thing". I know he could be manipulating people to get what he wanted . But hey, with the life he had, it's extremly normal to manipulate people to get what ? To get the best, the get love...Extremly demanding father, public life with no private life, LOVING fans to satisfy, Business pressure about money, about law...all the sharks swimming around... Don't you think he HAD to manipulate people ? It's all about survive.
Michael had to fight all his life. I don't think it's strange to sometime use doubles to get a bit of private time. It's not strange to have his face changed. It's not strange. It's just about a HUMAN BEING trying to deal with all this. I think he did great ! Most of men would have been destroyed sooner.
I do not believe in the double theory. We really saw him SUFFER all those years. Saw his evolution, his fight, his success, his happines with his kids. He always did all this in the "day light", giving the best of himself, always. If he had any ways to escape all this during those years, don't you think he would have done it sooner ? He always faced the reality.
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Wow guys, I just finished reading thru what everyone posted. I wanted to quote and say something about every one's post! Amazing stuff! I am absolutely thrilled that I posted my little rant in that I feel we all shared something here! It takes a lot to open yourself up like a lot of you did. I recently saw some outates from the Bashir documentary where MJ was talking about always being judged and how that affected him. He said he would go to spend some time at some families house and the minute he walked tru the door, people would judge him...why is Michael Jackson HERE? Why would HE want to be HERE? and MJ says so sadly..."I have to be somewhere...why NOT here?" I've often caught myself in this type of thinking about him...pictures of Debbie for example...I catch myself saying..why her? She's not that hot...and I catch myself and realize I am doing the same thing! Why can't MJ shop at the thrift store, why can't he marry an average person, why can't he go to the bathroom and shower and shave like the rest of humanity...LOL. I can't imagine the life he lived where everything he did was scrutinized and questioned and I can only imagine how this contributed to his pain and need for extreme privacy.
Here is a little "find" I came across...I hope you all enjoy it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-wallechinsky/michael-jackson-a-photo-t_b_221823.html
As for where we go from here...my friends...the media has done an excellent job of making Jermaine and Latoya out to be a bunch of quacks...they have worked on them for years. Now when they say Murray is the fall guy and something big went down, we all laugh and turn away. I think something big is here. I think MJ was murdered and I think AEG and Sony had their hand in it. Sony tried to get him once by supplying his financial records to the DA during his trial to help the prosecution prove financial motive behind keeping the family captive at never land. With MJ rotting in jail (their hopes) they would have their hands on the other half of the catalog. I think they just found a better way this time, and this time they don't need the other half of the catalog. Keep putting down your thoughts! You would be surprised how something that you don't think is important is very important to someone else and gets them thinking. I may not be right about what I posted about AEG and SONY, but it's a brain storm. What ever can get someone thinking and contributing. Also, don't be afraid to post anything you find about MJ...you would be surprised at what leads people to research and what they too may find.
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A very good brain storm mykidsmum.
Sadly, that is one of the possible scenarios, to me.
One of the more possible and that makes easily more sense...
There are also other "simple" possibility to be alive, having xcaped from that.
Those two have been the two stronest feelings of possibilities from day one.
Very good link also. Thanks.
About this thread, I think it is being a little a silent isle.
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Mykidsmum, you know what...I absolutely agree with you!
I`ve never placed on Michael the expectation of the public image that he desired us to percieve him. Noone deserves that kind of pressure. God knows how many flaws and craziness that I have myself. Everyone is ''weird''. That is the thing that almost no one wants to accept: we are all screwed up one way or another. Ignorance is to crucify someone for simply beeing human.
Look at yourself in the mirror: How many things you would like to change about yourself? How many secrets that you have that you want the world to NEVER know about. How many times you lied? How many situations you manipulated so that things would look good for you? Imagine now that you have the means to do all that. You have all the power and money to mold reality and yourself just like you always dreamed of doing. So there you have it...
Even a child instinctively knows how to manipulate others ( just think about a baby crying for his mother`s attention).
We are all manipulators. Some more, some less...
Bottom line...Michael is Michael with all his flaws, weirdness, genius, love, hate, lies, truths, manipulation, fears, hopes...
That is why I love Will You Be There.Its the most heartfelt song that I know. He was asking someone if he would still be loved when he showed his violence, his anguish, his fears, frustrations. Would he still be tolereted with all his burdens? Would someone still accept him if they knew that he was just a human trying his best to survive?
Or would this person prefer the fabricated character over ther real man? He was afraid of that answer I think. That's his tragedy in my opinion. He looked for love and acceptance from the outside so desperately only because he couldnt find that inside of himself.
And this is such a paradox, taking into consideration his pride and desire in depicting himself as a hero, a warrior, a king, a larger then life phenomenon. I guess pride is also a form of insecurity.
I can only love him knowing he is only human after all. Just like I am. Not a super human. Just human.
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Mo, GirlSaturday, I don't really think that's what MyKidsMum meant. MKM, if you're still here, I don't think that's what you meant, because I know that you barely believe in a hoax. I have a lot of respect for you because I know that you have mourned and mourned like the people who don't believe in a hoax at all, and yet I think you were trying to say kind of what Mo and GS are saying, that we don't know Michael personally and that he has flaws, not the perfect PR image. In fact pretty much all fans, (though I don't think we should use that word for us) know this, they wonder what he's like in private without the PR, and they know that he shows what he wants to show. I myself have said this a lot on here (just look at my apology thread in the Messages to Michael section!), and I've also said many times that his whole life can't revolve around us, because I know that we all care about him and don't want him to overwork himself for us. The only reason I melted down so badly last week was because I saw theories I hadn't seen before that suggested that Michael has used only doubles and not appeared at all since the Bad era, and that he used them for concerts, and reading those kind of triggered a hidden anger I didn't even know I had, and I feel quite sorry now for exploding the way I did. Those are the only aspects of using fakes that really bother me, though.
I know that celebrities do what they must or whatever, but I was always taught to make the most of money, to always only get what's really worth it. I always see everything the way it's going to affect the people, like you and me and especially the poorer folk, first. In this case, if he used a double on the stage, it's not showing the people whom they paid to see, as simple as that. I cannot tell how much I hate fans bothering Michael in his normal life, harassing him for nothing, and the stage is supposed to be the place where they're SUPPOSED to see him, and to give them a "random guy in makeup" is robbing of them of what is most likely their only chance to see him. Just take everything else out for a moment, go back to Dangerous or History and say you're a single mother that finally saved up enough to go. You think you've had the experience of a lifetime, you've seen the King of Pop, even if you didn't "feel his vibes" or even sing live. Then years later you believe he hoaxed his death and you read what happened.. All in all, you don't have to get furious with Michael (I am not anymore), but with all other aspects of the situation removed, it's still wrong, it's still a poor choice on his behalf, because you know what's better? If the situations were such that he even needed to use doubles, than he shouldn't have done shows at the time at all, simple as that. I think that the most honest route is always the best, and I've seen PLENTY of complaints about all of his lip-syncing from lots of dissatisfied fans- if you were to ask them "would you rather see a half-butted show now or wait a few years or so and see an authentic, real Michael Jackson concert?" Even if you don't ask about doubles, I'll bet all of my money that most would say the latter. I'm just saying that if he did this, it was a very poor choice if you look at it from the view of the people, especially the poorer fans, and even for him, because he wouldn't have had to hassle unnesscarily, without deceiving the hard-working people who dream of seeing him..
MKM, please don't leave the board! You are a loved and respected, intelligent member!
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Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert? :lol:
I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!
I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)
I have never believed in the doubles theory. Never will.
I have never believed in the twins theory. Never will.
I have never believed in anything related to the Illuminati, NWO, etc. (not saying they don't exist---because I don't know if they do or not and I don't care. But IF they do, I don't think they have any involvement in whatever happened on June 25.) Never will.
I have never believed that Dave Dave is MJ on LKL. Never will.
I have never believed in a green screened funeral at FL. Never will.
I have never believed in the MJ-Jumping-Out-of-the-Coroner's Van video. Never will.
I have never believed that MJ's "body" moved in the helicopter (because if he is dead, he can't move...and if he's alive...he would NOT need to be in that helicopter!). Never will.
I have never believed in many other things that a lot of beLIEvers seem to cling to, simply because I don't need to, and I never will.
Know what I DO believe in?
Michael Jackson
I also believe that none of the other items listed above need to be true in order for this hoax to be real. I also believe that if you DO believe in those things, hey, more power to ya. I will not disrespect you. And that which irritates me will make me stronger if I just avoid those threads. ;) And believe me when I say, that's something I do often.
What I see as the biggest challenge for most of us, and I've said this before, is that there are simply limits to what kind of "investigation" can actually be done solely via the Internet. There is only so much information that can be found online. So as someone else has said, we've turned over pretty much all the stones. And in a lot of ways, we've hit a brick wall, in my opinion. And the result of that is re-hashing of posts we've dissected all too many times, and the exploration of topics which are shaky, at best. And it has made me want to leave the community too a time or two.
Problem for me is that even though I'm pretty sure Michael is alive, I'm not 100% convinced. I keep hoping that by staying in touch here and with my own digging online, that eventually I'll find that one bit of information that tips the scales for me...that convinces me...one way or the other. Because then, and only then, will I find any peace. The truth is that if I knew for sure, with no doubts, that Michael is alive, I wouldn't need to come here anymore. I'd be content because I know the truth. And if I knew he was dead, with no doubts, I'd feel the same, because I've really already accepted that he could be gone and made my peace with that possibility.
My best advice for everyone is what I continue to say...don't search for evidence of the hoax....SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH. It will make you more objective. Use logic. Use reason. Use discretion. Be rational. Be thoughtful. And hey, being hopeful doesn't hurt either. And remember this: if Michael is alive, we can hurt him just as much as help him by what we say in this community, and in what we do. And if he is dead, there are a lot of "theories" and "evidence" that could be considered disrespectful to Michael, his memory, and his legacy. And since his children are part of his legacy, it's important to remember that one day they WILL read this stuff (if they don't already), so IF he is dead, they should be a very important consideration in what we say here.
This could have been my post.... :D It kinda scares me, it's exactly how I feel and think about it! You're not my double, are you? ;-) :mrgreen:
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I am so happy to hear that those ladies took your advice and stayed away from danger. It's just horrible that the trolls would prey upon vulnerable fans who believed that they could meet MJ that way. You are a great friend for helping those ladies see the truth about that setup. 8-)
Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert? :lol:
I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!
I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)
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I am so happy to hear that those ladies took your advice and stayed away from danger. It's just horrible that the trolls would prey upon vulnerable fans who believed that they could meet MJ that way. You are a great friend for helping those ladies see the truth about that setup. 8-)
Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert? :lol:
I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!
I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)
Unfortunatly I was one of them who got warned by Kuki...
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I agree with you...
I am on this site from the beginning for searching the truth,but I don't buy the double,twins theory....and sometimes i find quiet offensive the way pictures are manipulated and when some michael is called "imposter"..
I also don't believe the illuminati theory..
But I stay here just for sharing the hoax death belief. I think that is the real deal.And apart form this post,i never judged the adm beliefs.It is their site and they of course can expose their belief.Always with respect...
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The good news is that you were kept out of harm's way.
It is probably a lesson that you won't forget either.
Isn't it nice knowing that you have a good friend who will look out for your best interests like that? 8-) ;)
I am so happy to hear that those ladies took your advice and stayed away from danger. It's just horrible that the trolls would prey upon vulnerable fans who believed that they could meet MJ that way. You are a great friend for helping those ladies see the truth about that setup. 8-)
Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert? :lol:
I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!
I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)
Unfortunatly I was one of them who got warned by Kuki...
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The good news is that you were kept out of harm's way.
It is probably a lesson that you won't forget either.
Isn't it nice knowing that you have a good friend who will look out for your best interests like that? 8-) ;)
Yes it is ;)
But I was a little naive, probably my emotions that played a major role...
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i want to thank mo and souza for not locking this thread and letting pp express themselves
thanks
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I would probably call myself a fan but that does not mean I'm blind, in denial or delusional. Even if Michael would've told a lie sometimes, indeed been a drug addict, "cheated" on Debbie, been manipulative, etc. I would still love him the same (i.e alot ;) ). I love the whole package that is Michael Jackson. These past 10 months I have (and probably many of you guys too) discovered new things about Michael that I didn't know about before, not because I think he wouldn't do this or that but simply because I didn't research it as much before. Porn at Neverland, secret girlfriends, discussing one's love life with friends, the love for KFC :lol: etc, I know these things are apart of Michael's private life but I have to admit that I love reading about it. It brings joy to my heart to know that Michael did manage to have some "normality" in his life (although many refuse to believe these things putting more pressure on the man we're supposed to support and love), I for one truly believed him when he said he wanted to be able to just go grocery shopping.
I could watch videos of Michael doing absolutely nothing or listen to him talking about whatever forever, I guess that's why I'd call myself a fan. Someone mentioned being embarrassed for Michael and not wanting to watch his appearances sometimes and I understand that people react/perceive things differently but isn't that a bit harsh on Michael? I'm sure people's expectations also contributed to Michael's secluded and what some people might call "odd" behaviour. We all do mistakes and behave strangely sometimes the big difference is that Michael's mistakes get scrutinized by the rest of the world.
I do not believe in the doubles or twin theory and yes, to me it can become very frustrating. Sometimes one just wants to say wtf that's bs but I chose not to because I believe that is very disrespectful. I respect other people's opnions (as long as they're not of malicious nature) and if I want to present my disagreeing opinion I try to do it in a respectful way. Sorry for the long post :P .
:D You are right! And you are the only one who realizes that it is harsh on Michael. I am the one who mentioned, that sometimes I felt embarrassed when I saw Michael.
I always loved him and I still love him and I would never really taunt him for obviously feeling unconfident sometimes and hence behaving awkwardly. I just knew that I will be confronted about it by my environment (my parents, my sister, my teachers, my friends) - who all knew that I loved Michael and who always "knew" that he was crazy. In my feeling it was me myself being in that situation and I was embarrassed like I was him. Of course that is not Michael's problem and I don't blame him for it at all. My point in mentioning it is that sometimes it would have been even comfortable to say: "Oh that was NOT Michael. Michael is perfect and would never be in a situation like that."
I know Michael is not perfect he is human and he has flaws and me too, I love him!
But it is quite okay to be harsh with Michael - you realize that? :?
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One more thing to consider in the spirit of open-mindedness as we discuss fake vs real...
Recap: Many forum members reject the idea of doubles. I get it I get I get it. :lol:
What I don't get is how easily some hoax forum members here and elsewhere can believe in the tweets and forum posts from so-called friends, insiders and occassionally "MJ" himself. People can believe in and follow a fake MJ on twitter or a forum yet not believe in a real live double perfoming in concert. That I really don't get.
Over the past 10 months many amazing things have occurred regarding false people and their false information. Some of you may be unaware that there was a period several months ago when trolls invaded the forums and created all sorts of havoc. These people are tricky and very good at what they do.They would provide cryptic messages and leave myterious comments. Many forum members became excited and created all sorts of wonderful BAM dates afterward to follow them. Then there were the twitter accounts that had "MJ" in the name so fans were quickly believing that Michael Jackson was tweeting them personally. My favorite was when a "Michael Jackson" appeared on another forum and forum members started begging this person to PM them so that they could provide phone numbers to receive private phone calls. I witnessed these reactions. It is not made up. Then there was the scary and dangerous period when forum members received PMs from people who offered to introduce them to MJ but requested secret meetings to get to know them first. A few people got sucked into that trick and later regretted it. Again I'm not making this up. If it weren't so blatantly sad, it might be considered comical. These were not just one or two people being tricked and hurt but dozens...maybe more.
Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more..
How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert? :lol:
[/b]
Thank you for challenging this (for some reason delicate) question - I don´t get it as well. :roll:
Fans, Non-Fans, Follower, Supporter, Admirer or whatever you prefer - don´t we call ourselves MJ beLIEvers?
Where is the respect for each other and the openness of mind in these neverending discussions?
Where is the love - the unconditional, unselfish one?
That´s kind of sad. :cry:
We´re all here for one reason... L.O.V.E.
So let´s unite and not seperate.
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Mykidsmum, you know what...I absolutely agree with you!
I`ve never placed on Michael the expectation of the public image that he desired us to percieve him. Noone deserves that kind of pressure. God knows how many flaws and craziness that I have myself. Everyone is ''weird''. That is the thing that almost no one wants to accept: we are all screwed up one way or another. Ignorance is to crucify someone for simply beeing human.
Look at yourself in the mirror: How many things you would like to change about yourself? How many secrets that you have that you want the world to NEVER know about. How many times you lied? How many situations you manipulated so that things would look good for you? Imagine now that you have the means to do all that. You have all the power and money to mold reality and yourself just like you always dreamed of doing. So there you have it...
Even a child instinctively knows how to manipulate others ( just think about a baby crying for his mother`s attention).
We are all manipulators. Some more, some less...
Bottom line...Michael is Michael with all his flaws, weirdness, genius, love, hate, lies, truths, manipulation, fears, hopes...
That is why I love Will You Be There.Its the most heartfelt song that I know. He was asking someone if he would still be loved when he showed his violence, his anguish, his fears, frustrations. Would he still be tolereted with all his burdens? Would someone still accept him if they knew that he was just a human trying his best to survive?
Or would this person prefer the fabricated character over ther real man? He was afraid of that answer I think. That's his tragedy in my opinion. He looked for love and acceptance from the outside so desperately only because he couldnt find that inside of himself.
And this is such a paradox, taking into consideration his pride and desire in depicting himself as a hero, a warrior, a king, a larger then life phenomenon. I guess pride is also a form of insecurity.
I can only love him knowing he is only human after all. Just like I am. Not a super human. Just human.
I had to stop reading and reply to this...you have a way of saying exactly what I and others are thinking. Bravo! I think you hit the nail SQUARE on the head! We are all like this and the difference is we are not crucified when we let the real us show. Loved your post!
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Mykidsmum,
thank you! :)
Most of the times I cant express myself properly in english, but your post was so true and touched me deep inside that I felt the need to say all this.
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I loved this post and how all of you guys also stood up for MJ. Applauds!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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I would probably call myself a fan but that does not mean I'm blind, in denial or delusional. Even if Michael would've told a lie sometimes, indeed been a drug addict, "cheated" on Debbie, been manipulative, etc. I would still love him the same (i.e alot ;) ). I love the whole package that is Michael Jackson. These past 10 months I have (and probably many of you guys too) discovered new things about Michael that I didn't know about before, not because I think he wouldn't do this or that but simply because I didn't research it as much before. Porn at Neverland, secret girlfriends, discussing one's love life with friends, the love for KFC :lol: etc, I know these things are apart of Michael's private life but I have to admit that I love reading about it. It brings joy to my heart to know that Michael did manage to have some "normality" in his life (although many refuse to believe these things putting more pressure on the man we're supposed to support and love), I for one truly believed him when he said he wanted to be able to just go grocery shopping.
I could watch videos of Michael doing absolutely nothing or listen to him talking about whatever forever, I guess that's why I'd call myself a fan. Someone mentioned being embarrassed for Michael and not wanting to watch his appearances sometimes and I understand that people react/perceive things differently but isn't that a bit harsh on Michael? I'm sure people's expectations also contributed to Michael's secluded and what some people might call "odd" behaviour. We all do mistakes and behave strangely sometimes the big difference is that Michael's mistakes get scrutinized by the rest of the world.
I do not believe in the doubles or twin theory and yes, to me it can become very frustrating. Sometimes one just wants to say wtf that's bs but I chose not to because I believe that is very disrespectful. I respect other people's opnions (as long as they're not of malicious nature) and if I want to present my disagreeing opinion I try to do it in a respectful way. Sorry for the long post :P .
:D You are right! And you are the only one who realizes that it is harsh on Michael. I am the one who mentioned, that sometimes I felt embarrassed when I saw Michael.
I always loved him and I still love him and I would never really taunt him for obviously feeling unconfident sometimes and hence behaving awkwardly. I just knew that I will be confronted about it by my environment (my parents, my sister, my teachers, my friends) - who all knew that I loved Michael and who always "knew" that he was crazy. In my feeling it was me myself being in that situation and I was embarrassed like I was him. Of course that is not Michael's problem and I don't blame him for it at all. My point in mentioning it is that sometimes it would have been even comfortable to say: "Oh that was NOT Michael. Michael is perfect and would never be in a situation like that."
I know Michael is not perfect he is human and he has flaws and me too, I love him!
But it is quite okay to be harsh with Michael - you realize that? :?
I understand what you mean and I hope you didn't feel like I was criticizing you... I just wanted to perhaps give you examples of seeing things in different light. Since most of us love Michael we feel his pain, his joy, his awkwardness and I guess this is what you're refering to? Thanks for explaining ;) . I could watch michael anytime and just smile, I do however have difficulties watching things where people deliberatetly try to humiliate him (e.g. that MTV award that wasn't an award or whatever). Those things are just mean. About your environment, they already have their mind set on what they think so just ignore it, whatever they think they can't be blind to what Michael have done for this world - crossing barriers, preaching love and understanding, the charities etc. So no matter what they think about hi, those things can't be denied or overlooked.
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im going to have to agree with mykidsmum.
when you look at a close up shot you know its either michael or not. not once. NOT NEVER. has it been a question of being him or not (to me) you can tell when its not him. (as the look is completely off) NO ONE can pull michael off. he is original, unique and one of a kind. and I love him so much.
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@Nakiska
I just wanted to say that I loved your post, it is beautiful. I especially like the part about "Will you be there" and you express so well why I too love that song so much. It touches my heart every time I listen to it. I'd like to believe that most of Michael's songs were auto-biographical and reflect his emotions, experiences and thoughts. It kind of gives you opportunity to know the "private Michael". I know some say his songs are just fictional and some probably are but even Quincy Jones said most of Michael's songs were autobiographical.