Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Hoax Investigation => General Hoax Investigation => Other Odd Things => Topic started by: LadyMedic on April 06, 2010, 11:37:38 PM
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Hi everyone!! I'm sure most of you have seen me around the boards. I wanted to clear up some things for those who may not have read my posts regarding the ambulance, the 911 call, CPR, and paramedics. I know I've posted some of this stuff before, but because I post on this forum and another, I may not have posted the information I thought I did on this one. So I am cross posting this between forums so I know all of this information was given to both sites.
1. The ambulance didn't have its lights or sirens on.
True and False. The ambulance DID have its lights on when leaving the residence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU)
In the video (which I have no doubt you all have seen!! lol), you'll notice beginning around the :30 mark, you can see the lightbar above the back doors. The lights are on. At the 1:10 mark (especially noted at the 1:15 mark), you'll notice on the side of the ambulance has it's lights going as well.
Now about the sirens. You are correct. In the video, you do not see the sirens going. I've discussed before that it is a courtesy to not blare sirens with so many bystanders around. And because there was no traffic, there would have been no use for the sirens at that time. I've had so much respect from people on this forum that I truly appreciate it. However, I know some people doubt what I'm saying about the sirens. I want to explain something. Legally, anytime you have your lights on you really should have your sirens on as well. This refers to being in traffic and on a road. If I'm parked in someone’s driveway, just because I left my lights on doesn't mean I need to have my sirens blaring. I want that to be understood before I post this link.
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=17654 (http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=17654)
I am the starter of this thread. I wanted you all to see unbiased opinions from other paramedics and EMTs from all over regarding sirens. Some bring up that fact that textbook, you should always have your sirens on when you have your lights on. However, everyone who states that also tells what they would realistically do. One user put it perfectly
“Basically, I use it when it'll be effective and I don't when it won't be effective or safe.”
So quite honestly, it would not be effective in the situation of the ambulance backing out. There’s no traffic to move out of the way.
2. The ambulance was not in a hurry.
I talked about this WAY back when I first came into the hoax scene. My argument is that the driver needs to drive safely to the hospital. It would NOT have been safe for the driver to get hyphie and fly out of the driveway. I’m sure you all understand by now that the paramedics (and that idiot Murray) were in the back of the ambulance working on the patient. A medic is standing up doing CPR. Another medic is maintaining the airway and making sure it remains secure. They are actually working and moving back there.
It took the ambulance 6 minutes to transport to UCLA. Mapquest and Google Maps say that it should take 6-7 minutes to get from 100 North Carolwood Drive to UCLA. So it sounds like a normal time. We don’t know what traffic was like, so we can’t be sure that the ambulance didn’t have to deal with traffic and could have gotten there faster.
The biggest thing about that time that we don’t know is when the driver told dispatch they were transporting. There is no right or wrong answer to when the driver told dispatch. We don’t know if they were transporting when the ambulance began to back out, while the ambulance was backing out, or after the ambulance backed out. So technically, road transport time could be anywhere from 3-6 minutes. And 3-6 minutes is an awesome and fast transport time.
3. It’s illegal to use lights and sirens in a non-emergency.
False. What is considered an emergency is subjective. As a paramedic, I make the decision whether or not to transport with lights and sirens. What I may decide to transport with, another medic may decide to transport without. Furthermore, in my system, if we are depleted of our ambulances, our dispatch may instruct us to transport even the most stupid things with lights and sirens. So if my partner is in the back with a drunk, and we are quickly being depleted of ambulances, when I tell the dispatcher I’m transporting without, they may come back and tell me to transport with in order to free up an ambulance. But going back to Michael, they were transporting with lights at least.
4. It’s against 911 policy to hang up before the ambulance arrives.
True and False, but WAY more False. Against 911 policy? No, it’s not. If someone needs to be explained how to care for a patient, such as doing CPR, you SHOULD stay on the line. My boyfriend just went through EMD training. He is now AEMD (Advanced Emergency Medical Dispatch) certified. Benefit for me is I can get easy, straight answers from him that I know are going to be entirely reliable and updated. So here’s the thing. It is at the discretion of the dispatcher whether or not they need to hang up. A dispatcher could be talking to someone who is calling for something non-life threatening, but remains on the phone the entire time to help ease the caller. Many EMD dispatchers are also EMTs or paramedics. So when they are talking to the caller, they can kick into EMT/medic mode and ask questions about the patient. It’s a comfort thing.
Now in the case of Michael, the dispatcher was absolutely not wrong to hang up. He could have stayed on the line to ask questions, but this was not a necessity. There was no point in telling the doctor to do 600 compressions because he was already doing CPR. The point I’m trying to make is that while everyone says it is against protocol to hang up, this is not at all true.
5. The ambulance picture has been CONFIRMED fake.
No, unfortunately it has not been. I know this has been brought up many times, and not just by myself, but I’m throwing it in here because I’m talking about the ambulance and whatnot. Brian Oxman stated he BELIEVES the photo is fake. He cannot confirm it is fake. The stage picture is the picture he believes the photo was photoshopped with. In MY OPINION, that is definitely not the most convincing picture. I’ve seen other photos that look more like the ambulance photo than that one. So in MY OPINION, for him to say that’s the photo that was used discredits him because I do not feel it matches. Again, those last two portions are my opinion, but that he can not 100% confirm that it’s fake is fact.
Now, I know there are some questions related to CPR in regards to Murray. I’m not going to answer those because I think Murray is the biggest idiot, and I have no idea why he did the things he did. Why did he do CPR on the bed? Because he’s an idiot. Why didn’t he have a defibrillator on scene? Because he’s an idiot. Why didn’t he have resuscitative equipment? Because he’s an idiot. Why did he wait to call 911? Because he’s an idiot. I have no logical explanation why Murray did the things he did.
6. 42 minutes on scene is absolutely unacceptable.
Yes and no. It totally depends on the situation. 42 minutes on average, I will admit is longer than I’d want to spend on scene. However, there are calls in which you spend more time on scene than you ever imagined you could. My personal longest time was just about 3 hours ;)... and the call was featured in the New York Times :D.
We now have more information to attribute to why the medics stayed on scene so long. This is actually courtesy of my boyfriend as he gave me the thought. This is my (and his) hypothetical time line that I’m sure you’ll agree makes sense.
5 minutes to get to MJ
25 minutes to get everything set and work him
5 minutes to call the hospital
10 minutes to get him down the stairs and loaded into the ambulance
That all totals 45 minutes.
Where am I getting these times? I gave 5 minutes to get to MJ because they would need to collect their equipment from the ambulance and bring it inside and upstairs. We know that it is protocol for LAFD to work a patient for 20 minutes before trying to call it. I allotted them the 20 minutes they are required in addition to some extra time (5 minutes) they may have worked him and in order to set up appropriate equipment and make decisions. I gave them 5 minutes to discuss with Murray to continue to work the patient and to call the hospital to explain the situation. Finally, they get 10 minutes to continue working the patient, get him downstairs, loaded into the ambulance, and the medics to get situated in the back. When you break it down, the 42 minutes doesn’t sound too farfetched.
7. Michael doesn’t look dead in the picture.
I can’t comment on whether or not it looks like Michael now or from 20 years ago. But I can say that he doesn’t not look dead… does that make sense? I read somewhere that someone questioned my saying he could look dead or alive in the picture. This was not on the forum, and the user who knows what I’m talking about is more than welcome to contact me directly if they'd like!
In a nutshell, a nurse commented on the ambulance photo. They said I was an EMT, which I am not, I am a paramedic. Schooling wise, paramedics and RNs both spend 2 years in their studies (excluding bachelor paramedic degrees and BSNs). So technically, we’re on the same level. However, the nurse made the comment that she works in PACU (or the equivalent) and has seen people in cardiac arrest and says that they are essentially not a normal skin color. Here’s where I strongly beg to differ. I’ve seen dead people in many, many stages of death; seconds to minutes to hours to days to weeks. I’ve found people who were last seen the night before who merely look like they’re sleeping and others you cannot for a second mistake that they’re dead. I remember looking at one patient who had been worked for about 2 hours (it was a witnessed arrest) and I thought to myself “that’s the most alive looking dead person I’ve ever seen”. There is no set standard to say what a person will look like when they pass. And MJ would have been only 1-2 hours passed in that picture. With CPR being performed, lividity was not likely to be on major portions of the body. Also, he was intubated and I can say from numerous personal experiences that I’ve watched people go from straight up BLUE to a normal pink skin color in less than a minute after being intubated and ventilated. (Let’s also remember the ambulance window is tinted. Things ARE going to look darker than they would in normal lighting).
Now what makes my expertise on the subject more substantial? This is the field I work in. She works with post operative patients. You won’t find someone who is days dead in an operating room. Usually not even hours dead. So let me ask you this… would you ask me about anesthesia? Or would you rather ask an anesthesiologist? Who would have the better answer? Would you ask a neurologist about your child who hasn’t been feeling well? Or would you rather ask a pediatrician? Who would have the better answer? Do you see where I’m going with that? Note that this is also why I haven’t really made comments about the autopsy report among other things. While I do understand a good amount of medical terminology and conditions, I don’t know a darn thing about how an autopsy is supposed to be written. I prefer to comment about things I know about because they are my job.
So that’s my list. I want to reiterate a couple of things. First and foremost, I am not trying to discourage believers from believing. I want you to understand the logistics of the situation. Does it mean MJ is dead? No. Does it mean he’s alive? No. It’s just information. They could come out tomorrow and admit that it was all a hoax. That's why I want my information to be as objective as possible. So when I say why 42 minutes on scene was justified, if it was staged or real, it was still justified. When I describe that a dead person could look dead or alive (haha), regardless of if it was staged or real, a dead person coudl still look dead or alive. Know what I'm saying?
Also, I know there are other things that have been discussed regarding the ambulance, CPR, medics, and the 911 call. Most other questions I feel have been discussed enough (e.g. the equipment in the ambulance, the paramedic patches, etc.)
However, if there are any questions, even if it has been brought up a million times but you want clarification, please ask me. That’s what I’m here for!
I also hope no one minds that this is cross posted. I just wanted to make sure I covered the bases in both forums and those who belong to one forum and not the other still get to read and respond to this.
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Thank you very much, LadyMedic, for sharing your expertise. I think it is important to "clear the picture" of assumptions and conclusions ...
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Thank you for your educated and objective opinion. It's difficult to hear things that may go against what we believe but fact is fact. And you are not saying that Michael is dead. You are just relaying fact about the medical process getting Michael to the hospital.
I have to ask - would there be enough room in the ambulance for Dr Murray, the patient, and both medical personnel? And, is it possible to take a picture and not get a glimpse, even a hand or arm, of Dr Murray in the ambulance photo? He's a big man and there isn't much room. Thanks.
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Lady Medic, please talk about how the endotracheal unit was not sitting properly on the mouth in the ambulance pic, as well as the paramedic was only using one arm to perform, presumably, CPR, as well as the choice to back out of Carrolwood instead of use the round about or turn around, as well as the obviously novice driving skills witnessed in that back out performance, as well as the fact that the paramedics left the ambulance doors wide open upon arrival at ucla as well as the complete lack of IV, cpr or any life saving techniques visible when entering ucla ER.
Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you're trying to discourage us because of the topics you chose to address and the ones you chose to omit and that makes me wonder if you're really a hoaxer. And if you are a hoaxer, what makes you believe considering your professional backround?
Additionally, should I just take your word for your stated expertise? Not trying to offend, just saying, you could be my next door neighbor who's a tree trimmer by trade spinning me a line of BS for all I know.
I hope you answer and take me very seriously and at face value because I am very very genuine in my line of questioning.
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Thank you so much LadyMedic. You have cleared up alot of questions I had. I've worked in the Medical field also. This never seemed an issue about the sirens, so thanks for clearing that up. In theory, MJ would have had expert advice before planning such an elaborate hoax. Musn't forget that Christopher Weiss from "Associated Press", (the famous last photo) is a fully trained paramedic :P :P :P As always, with L.O.V.E xox
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i think it is brilliant that you have started this thread, i will be reading it with interest
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Thank you for your educated and objective opinion. It's difficult to hear things that may go against what we believe but fact is fact. And you are not saying that Michael is dead. You are just relaying fact about the medical process getting Michael to the hospital.
I have to ask - would there be enough room in the ambulance for Dr Murray, the patient, and both medical personnel? And, is it possible to take a picture and not get a glimpse, even a hand or arm, of Dr Murray in the ambulance photo? He's a big man and there isn't much room. Thanks.
I've brought this up on the other forum, but again, this is why I wanted to make this topic!!
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/ ... 30#p150956 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2656&start=130#p150956)
In summation, from the angle of the picture you would not be able to see anyone sitting on the bench seat. The bench seat is large enough to fit three adults. You can see in the last picture my boyfriend so graciously posed in the picture! He's 6'2" and weighs about 210 pounds. I don't know exactly how big Murray is, but my boy isn't a small guy!!
And I haven't read all of the replies yet on here, but because I posted something like this along with my reply on the other forum, I want to make something clear:
This doesn't mean it still wasn't a hoax. (In hoax perspective) Murray may not have been in the ambulance to begin with because it's a hoax. Or, he was, he was out of shot by default, and the whole thing was staged.
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Lady Medic, please talk about how the endotracheal unit was not sitting properly on the mouth in the ambulance pic, as well as the paramedic was only using one arm to perform, presumably, CPR, as well as the choice to back out of Carrolwood instead of use the round about or turn around, as well as the obviously novice driving skills witnessed in that back out performance, as well as the fact that the paramedics left the ambulance doors wide open upon arrival at ucla as well as the complete lack of IV, cpr or any life saving techniques visible when entering ucla ER.
Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you're trying to discourage us because of the topics you chose to address and the ones you chose to omit and that makes me wonder if you're really a hoaxer. And if you are a hoaxer, what makes you believe considering your professional backround?
Additionally, should I just take your word for your stated expertise? Not trying to offend, just saying, you could be my next door neighbor who's a tree trimmer by trade spinning me a line of BS for all I know.
I hope you answer and take me very seriously and at face value because I am very very genuine in my line of questioning.
I had actually made a video on youtube that went over the equipment and actions in the ambulance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC1b2jbipg8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC1b2jbipg8)
As for the other questions, I know I've discussed some of them before, but this stuff is hard because I'm going to sound incredibly biased answering some of these things. And by biased, I mean because I am familiar with doing CPR and working in the field as a medic. So let me give it a shot:
The ET tube holder -
I'm assuming you're referring to the position of the ETT holder on the mouth. The tube holder has a bite block in the side of it that many times will prevent the mouth from being entirely closed. I would not say it is out of position, but there are a couple of factors you can look at. His mouth may simply be open. I've had plenty of dead patients with mouth and eyes wide open and they stay open (despite my best efforts to keep the eyes shut when I'm at the airway). I've also had patients with trismus or even rigor starting in the jaw. It does look like it's sitting lower on his mouth. However, everyones face is different. And now I'm leaning towards it being even more realistic because TMZ reported Michael had his mouth and eyes wide open.
One armed CPR -
I've done CPR with one hand. Other medics have done CPR with one hand. EMTs have done CPR with one hand. When you've been doign CPR for an hour straight, you get EXHAUSTED. Yes, you do switch out, but that doesn't mean you're not getting one of the most extreme workouts you've ever had. While you won't find it written anywhere, from experience, realistcally sometimes CPR is done with one hand. The two things to look at are the ambulance was moving, so it clearly looks like the medic is bracing himself with his right arm and doing CPR with his left. The other thing is Michael is not a large guy. Once ribs are broken, it doesn't take as much force to get to the proper depth and allow for proper recoil. So for me, this is one of the most street and realistic things in the picture.
The turn around -
I don't really want to comment much on this because it's sort of null and irrelevant to the stuff I wanted to talk about. But quickly, there were cars in the roundabout. I wasn't there, I can't say why they chose to back out, but I do know from video that they could not have made the turn with the cars parked in the circle. I prefer to back in because at one of my paid jobs it's required. At my other paid job and my vollie service, we don't have to. I don't know what they're protocols were, and I can't speculate what they were thinking. Maybe they thought they'd be able to circle through. Maybe there were people waving them to pull in head first (happens all the time). Maybe they were told that there's a place for them to turn around. Or maybe Ben needed to get the shot and this was the best way to go about it. But this part is really subjective so I really can't objectively answer it. What I can say is those stupid box ambulances SUCK to back up. They have terrible turning radius and I will drive my van ambulance any day but avoid driving boxes at all costs.
Leaving doors wide open -
Honestly, I do it all the time regardless of the patient or the situation. But in a code? Absolutely I would leave the doors open. Sometimes I close them, but most of the time I just want to get inside. So I have much confidence in saying this is 100% a normal thing.
Lack of IV or CPR -
I can't see what's happening in that picture. People have speculated so many different things. IV poles are at the bottom of the stretcher and Murray is blocked the view of where it would be. Even then, I may set the bag down on top of the patient when I bring them in. I see the medics at the head maintaining the airway. I can not see whether or not there is someone doing CPR. Sometimes we have people riding the stretcher, sometimes not. In this instance, you can believe whatever you'd like :)
And I'm not offended by your comments. I understand your concerns, I truly, truly do. I know this is a sensitive subject for a lot of you. I feel that I've built up my credibility here. I called the paramedic tape fake the second I heard it. You can confirm my information with other sources. And you're more than welcome to ask me any questions about paramedicine in general.
The problem with a lot of things are the subjectivity. That's why I'm really trying to answer things from a paramedic's view and not from a believer or non believer. If I start doing that, then my information will be obscured. So things like why didn't the ambulance turn around or where was the IV at UCLA are tough for me to answer, ya know?
But I want to assure you that I am a licensed and actively practicing paramedic.
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Thank you so much LadyMedic. You have cleared up alot of questions I had. I've worked in the Medical field also. This never seemed an issue about the sirens, so thanks for clearing that up. In theory, MJ would have had expert advice before planning such an elaborate hoax. Musn't forget that Christopher Weiss from "Associated Press", (the famous last photo) is a fully trained paramedic :P :P :P As always, with L.O.V.E xox
Ahhhhh!!! :shock: Chris is not, not, not a paramedic!! He claimed he was an EMT. There's a large educational and skill gap between a medic and an EMT. I am NOT putting down EMTs because I was one for years and all of my partners are EMTs. I love (most of) them. :P
But Chris seemed to have not a gosh darn clue. He said it was a load and go within 8-10 minutes? That leads to me to believe he maybe went through the course, maybe passed this test and got his certification, but I doubt he worked for a service. I can guarantee you, and assure you with the LAFD protocols, that it was not a "load and go" situation with "8-10" minutes. They worked on the patient for 20 minutes and wanted to call it. That is totally acceptable and in their protocols.
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Hey LadyMedic!!
I love reading your posts.....I have a questions and I do NOT thinkit has been asked before...
If MJ was declared dead at any time at the house or even the hospital...why oh WHY didnt they use the defibs on him?
I know thats a no no even if you have a faint heartbeat and using the defibs would stop your heart but Im just wondering if at any time when his heart stopped why they wouldnt or didnt use those????
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Hey LadyMedic!!
I love reading your posts.....I have a questions and I do NOT thinkit has been asked before...
If MJ was declared dead at any time at the house or even the hospital...why oh WHY didnt they use the defibs on him?
I know thats a no no even if you have a faint heartbeat and using the defibs would stop your heart but Im just wondering if at any time when his heart stopped why they wouldnt or didnt use those????
Awesome, excellent question!! I did bring it up somewhere else one time, but I'll do it again. (Just checked. It was on the other forum)
This isn't subjective. This is totally ACLS protocols.
There are essentially 4 lethal heart rhythms - PEA (pulseless electical acvitity), aystole (flatline), V tach (ventricular tachycardia), and V fib (ventricular fibrillation)
*Also note in case anyone knows about this as well and is picky, you could claim that there are 5 rhythms by counting polymorphic (torsades) and monomorphic V tach differently :P But I'm classifying them both under V tach.
Only two of those can be defibrillated, V tach and V fib. If the patient is in PEA or asystole, you do NOT defibrillate. You only do CPR.
Here's the alogrithm we follow. I'm posting the link because the picture is giantic and if I shrink it, you may not be able to read it clearly:
http://www.streamdent.com/images2/Pulse ... Arrest.jpg (http://www.streamdent.com/images2/Pulseless%20Arrest.jpg)
On there, you'll note right at the top it states "Shockable rhythm" and then "Shockable" to the left with V tach and V fib and "Not Shockable" to the right with PEA and asystole.
Reports say that MJ was in asystole the entire time with paramedics, therefore they could not have defibrillated him.
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Thank you Lm....that was very informative........
My sisters hubby had some major heart issues one day and his heart was racing so fast they actully defibbed him to slow it downor else he would have died......they ended doing heart surgery on him...there was some kind of artery that was messed up.
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Reports say that MJ was in asystole the entire time with paramedics, therefore they could not have defibrillated him.
But they said he had a pulse at a time? Could that mean he went from asystole into VF (I can't remember the exact pulse but I thought it was too low for VT)? And why didn't they defibrillate him then?
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Thank you Lm....that was very informative........
My sisters hubby had some major heart issues one day and his heart was racing so fast they actully defibbed him to slow it downor else he would have died......they ended doing heart surgery on him...there was some kind of artery that was messed up.
Synchronized cardioversion :)
Reports say that MJ was in asystole the entire time with paramedics, therefore they could not have defibrillated him.
But they said he had a pulse at a time? Could that mean he went from asystole into VF (I can't remember the exact pulse but I thought it was too low for VT)? And why didn't they defibrillate him then?
The newest thing is that at the hospital he regained a pulse. The medics never regained a pulse. No need to defibrillate him because he had a pulse. So if he went from asystole to a rhythm with pulses, there's no need to defib.
And V fib never has pulses, but V tach can. The treatment for V tach with pulses is different than V tach without.
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Interesting.....
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Pardon but why not defib if he has no pulse? This is the most famous man in the world. What good reason could there possibly be to not defib him if he has no pulse and is being sent to ER?
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Pardon but why not defib if he has no pulse? This is the most famous man in the world. What good reason could there possibly be to not defib him if he has no pulse and is being sent to ER?
It's not a matter of why didn't they do it, it's that it is inappropriate to defibrillate someone is asystole. It's against ACLS protocols and has been proven to be ineffective.
Edit - The point of defibrillation is to STOP the heart in an attempt to get it to start beating a normal rhythm. If the patient is in asystole, their heart has already entirely stopped so there is no point to defibrillating.
For example, AEDs are automatic. They will assess the patients cardiac rhythm and determine whether or not a shock is advised. If it picks up asystole, it will not shock and it will tell you to continue CPR.
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The stories just don't fit. A question (sorry if I overlooked it) but where did they say that it was asystole and not VF? I can't remember that I read that.
And if it's true that he had a pulse at hospital (which I doubt because it's hard to get someone back from asystole) he couldn't have VT because it was not higher than 100bpm.
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The stories just don't fit. A question (sorry if I overlooked it) but where did they say that it was asystole and not VF? I can't remember that I read that.
And if it's true that he had a pulse at hospital (which I doubt because it's hard to get someone back from asystole) he couldn't have VT because it was not higher than 100bpm.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/76 ... -bars.html (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/761057/Damning-ambulance-report-that-could-put-stars-medic-behind-bars.html)
That's the run form.
So here's why he was in asystole:
1. The paramedics report states that he was in asystole the entire time.
2. Every other source I've read stated that the medics never regained a pulse.
3. The gave atropine. You do not give atropine to V tach, V fib, or PEA (unless it's brady).
4. They were looking for orders to presume. In order to presume, the patient must have no rhythm change - e.g. they remain asystolic.
When he regained a pulse at the hospital, they said his rhythm was slow and wide. It sounds like it was just an IVR. There's a joke that you can give a steak enough epi and it'll have a pulse. Getting a pulse back and a wide, slow rhythm is not usually a sign that the patient is going to survive. Typically, in my experience, when I get someone back their heart is moving pretty quickly because of the epi and/or atropine. However, I never heard the hospital was able to defibrillate him either.
If this is not a hoax, I have no doubt that they were unable to defibrillate him. Not by choice, but because you do not defibrillate asystole. If it is a hoax, then they just didn't slip up in this case.
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Thank you for this.
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If this is not a hoax, I have no doubt that they were unable to defibrillate him. Not by choice, but because you do not defibrillate asystole. If it is a hoax, then they just didn't slip up in this case.
You're right. Thank you for your explanations, I've worked at cardiac surgery in the past, but it seems that I don't remember everything ;)
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Does anyone else have any objective* questions about anything related to paramedics/ambulance/911 procedures/CPR/etc.? I'm just sort of bumping this because I keep seeing the same questions arise that I've gone over here, and I'm willing to answer and specific questions as best as I can. I also wanted to mention in regards to LAFD dispatching, I know that my company runs the same EMD (Emergency Medical Dispatch) system.
*I say objective because things seemed to get out of hand in another forum in regards to this thread, and I really don't want to have that happen again. And as I've said above, I just want to bring this back around because there seems to be some confusion. I don't mind questions such as "Is it possible...?", but please no "Do you think...?" type questions.
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thank you for posting this...really interesting 8-)
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Lady Medic, please talk about how the endotracheal unit was not sitting properly on the mouth in the ambulance pic, as well as the paramedic was only using one arm to perform, presumably, CPR, as well as the choice to back out of Carrolwood instead of use the round about or turn around, as well as the obviously novice driving skills witnessed in that back out performance, as well as the fact that the paramedics left the ambulance doors wide open upon arrival at ucla as well as the complete lack of IV, cpr or any life saving techniques visible when entering ucla ER.
Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you're trying to discourage us because of the topics you chose to address and the ones you chose to omit and that makes me wonder if you're really a hoaxer. And if you are a hoaxer, what makes you believe considering your professional backround?
Additionally, should I just take your word for your stated expertise? Not trying to offend, just saying, you could be my next door neighbor who's a tree trimmer by trade spinning me a line of BS for all I know.
I hope you answer and take me very seriously and at face value because I am very very genuine in my line of questioning.
uh-huh...yeah! :evil:
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Does anyone else have any objective* questions
Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
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Does anyone else have any objective* questions
Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Because I just read a post two days ago that someone stated dispatchers are not allowed to hang up until an ambulance arrives. Finding the truth isn't about believing only what you want and ignoring fact.
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They are saying that MJ had been dead for 5-6 hours not 1-2 hours before arriving at Carolwood. So knowing that, does he still look dead, lol. I know that's a stupid question to ask. Please look at these pics. I have asked this question about 4 times and never did get an answer to it. How bout this... Can you look at these pictures and tell me what the differences are? Maybe if you spot the differences that I am referring to, you may be able to say dead or alive.. ESPECIALLY since 5-6 hours had supposedly past. BTW, look it up on youtube Latoya says he died at like 8 that morning according to what the family had been told.
These are so small.. Sorry I tried to make them bigger but it distorted them : ( I hope you can see what I cam talking about.
Look at the forehead and tell me if you see any differences
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP1-2.jpg)(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP2-2.jpg)
Look at the mouth and tell me the differences that you see
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP1-1.jpg)(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP2-1.jpg)
This is the whole face side by side with one pic flipped to get a side by side.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP4.jpg)
Maybe I am wanting to see something that isn't there.. To me, it looks as if he is in discomfort in one of the pictures. Can someone who has been dead for 5 hours moved their facial muscles? I am being very serious cause I know they have gas sometimes and muscle twitches. But I am not sure how long after death the muscles can twitch. After 5-6 hours??? Also, the muscles twitching is different then what I am seeing here. He is pursing his lips together (the best he can with the thing in his mouth) and his forehead looks wrinkled to me like he is in some pain. Thank you so much!!!
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Does anyone else have any objective* questions
Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Because I just read a post two days ago that someone stated dispatchers are not allowed to hang up until an ambulance arrives. Finding the truth isn't about believing only what you want and ignoring fact.
Nice dodge. I mean why are you on the hoax boards at all, but you knew that.
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They are saying that MJ had been dead for 5-6 hours not 1-2 hours before arriving at Carolwood. So knowing that, does he still look dead, lol. I know that's a stupid question to ask. Please look at these pics. I have asked this question about 4 times and never did get an answer to it. How bout this... Can you look at these pictures and tell me what the differences are? Maybe if you spot the differences that I am referring to, you may be able to say dead or alive.. ESPECIALLY since 5-6 hours had supposedly past. BTW, look it up on youtube Latoya says he died at like 8 that morning according to what the family had been told.
These are so small.. Sorry I tried to make them bigger but it distorted them : ( I hope you can see what I cam talking about.
Look at the forehead and tell me if you see any differences
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP1-2.jpg)(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP2-2.jpg)
Look at the mouth and tell me the differences that you see
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP1-1.jpg)(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP2-1.jpg)
This is the whole face side by side with one pic flipped to get a side by side.
(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/lilly2874/CROP4.jpg)
Maybe I am wanting to see something that isn't there.. To me, it looks as if he is in discomfort in one of the pictures. Can someone who has been dead for 5 hours moved their facial muscles? I am being very serious cause I know they have gas sometimes and muscle twitches. But I am not sure how long after death the muscles can twitch. After 5-6 hours??? Also, the muscles twitching is different then what I am seeing here. He is pursing his lips together (the best he can with the thing in his mouth) and his forehead looks wrinkled to me like he is in some pain. Thank you so much!!!
It's really hard to say whether or not a person looks dead because it is so subjective. I couldn't definitively say whether or not the person in the picture looks dead or not. There's no golden rule about it such as the body will always turn a waxy color after 3 hours. It just depends on the person and the circumstances.
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Does anyone else have any objective* questions
Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Because I just read a post two days ago that someone stated dispatchers are not allowed to hang up until an ambulance arrives. Finding the truth isn't about believing only what you want and ignoring fact.
Nice dodge. I mean why are you on the hoax boards at all, but you knew that.
I didn't know that and I'm not trying to dodge anything. And I said in my intro post why I am here. You could have just searched my posts and gone to my first post on the forum. I saw some people saying some very inaccurate things regarding the ambulance photo and stumbled across this forum where I saw even MORE inaccuracies about the photo, and then it continued into paramedics and CPR and the 911 call and all of that. I wanted to clear up what people were questioning to try to help out with the confusion.
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Hi Lady Medic...Thanks for taking our questions...I have 2. The first is that when I looked up information on rigor mortis it should start to set in to some degree in the first 6 hours. You thought that possibly it had already started by the way the mouth piece wasn't fitting properly. The Autopsy stated that the coroners office didn't see any sign of rigor mortis when they examined the body around 6:00 that night. Does that seem odd? The second question is about the propofol. I thought you may have an opinion on this but if not it's ok. I am still confused about why MJ would use this. Was he actually using it every single night for 8 hours or was he just using it briefly for short spurts. Either way it doesn't make sense because if the belief is that he used it to sleep most nights for the whole night...he would not be rested and therefore could not have performed. If he used it for short spurts...what was the point...it couldn't be to sleep as was claimed because it was too short to accomplish anything. Thanks so much for your time.
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Hi Lady Medic...Thanks for taking our questions...I have 2. The first is that when I looked up information on rigor mortis it should start to set in to some degree in the first 6 hours. You thought that possibly it had already started by the way the mouth piece wasn't fitting properly. The Autopsy stated that the coroners office didn't see any sign of rigor mortis when they examined the body around 6:00 that night. Does that seem odd? The second question is about the propofol. I thought you may have an opinion on this but if not it's ok. I am still confused about why MJ would use this. Was he actually using it every single night for 8 hours or was he just using it briefly for short spurts. Either way it doesn't make sense because if the belief is that he used it to sleep most nights for the whole night...he would not be rested and therefore could not have performed. If he used it for short spurts...what was the point...it couldn't be to sleep as was claimed because it was too short to accomplish anything. Thanks so much for your time.
Rigor is a tough thing (no pun intended haha), and I'm surprised the internet doesn't have more or better information on it. In my experience, I've seen patients in many different times throughout the death process. From them coding in front of me to being down over a week. The first place rigor tends to set in is in the jaw. In the field, we typically discover this quickly, when we try to put in an airway adjunct. If it's not obvious then, it's typically when we go to intubate the patient that it becomes clear that jaw is not moving. The onset of rigor is most dependent on the patient's muscle usage prior to death and the environment. Typyically, it beings after 3 hours, but that's just a rule of thumb and is subjective. Now as for there being no rigor at 6:00 that evening. It's hard to say. You figure the patient was being worked (CPR) until around 2:30. That would be 3 and a half hours after pronouncing.
Now, let's look a little more into the onset and duration of rigor. Rigor is most affected by the usage of muscle just prior to death. If someone is running a marathon and collapses and dies, both the onset and duration of rigor is going to be shorter. If someone passes away in bed, the onset and duration of rigor is going to be longer.
Ultimately, I would say it's not weird to say there was no or wasn't much rigor in this case. However, if reports say (and I don't know if they do or not) there was no lividty, I would have a hard time believing that.
As for the Propofol thing, it really doesn't make much sense to me (or anyone, including most doctors for that matter). The thought I suppose is that he was also using benzos to aid in helping him sleep in addition to the Propofol. But Propofol for sleeping is bazaar. It has to be a constant dosing otherwise you'll wake up. I don't use Propofol in the field, we use Etomidate (in conjunction with benzos), and only use it to intubate someone. Both meds will just knock your right out and sedate you, but I have no idea why he would have chosen Propofol.
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HEY LADYMEDIC!
HI!
I HAVE A QUESTION, I READ IN SOME PLACE THAT THE PROPOFOL NEED ANTIDOTE BUT MURRAY NEVER SAY TO THE PARAMEDIC THAT WAS PROPOFOL AND THEY NEVER GIVE HIM THE ANTIDOTE... WHAT DO YOU THINK? :roll:
IF THIS IS THE CASE THIS WAS A MURDER, DON´T YOU THINK?
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HEY LADYMEDIC!
HI!
I HAVE A QUESTION, I READ IN SOME PLACE THAT THE PROPOFOL NEED ANTIDOTE BUT MURRAY NEVER SAY TO THE PARAMEDIC THAT WAS PROPOFOL AND THEY NEVER GIVE HIM THE ANTIDOTE... WHAT DO YOU THINK? :roll:
IF THIS IS THE CASE THIS WAS A MURDER, DON´T YOU THINK?
There is no antidote for Propofol.
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Hi LADYMED, I appreciate your answers. I work in the medical field, too,and I noticed from the beginning that there were some wrong assumptions made because of lack of knowledge. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to set things right from an objective and professional point of view!
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Just found this comparison....
(http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12300000/hoax-evidence-mj-death-hoax-12321085-604-294.jpg)