Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Hoax Investigation => General Hoax Investigation => Other Odd Things => Topic started by: DancingTheDream on March 29, 2010, 08:28:03 AM
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The ephedrine found at the residence was in something called an "ECA stack". It contains Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin. The ECA stack causes rapid weight loss without exercise and increases energy levels. It is not FDA approved nor is it safe--ephedrine is linked to heart attack and stroke even in young healthy patients.
Why Michael was taking this is unclear but it is important to keep in mind the bottles were unlabeled, as were the capsules. He could have been told to take it having know clue as to what it was.
This was on the list that appeared from the unsealed search documents.
The press have made a big deal of the whitening creams... but not this???
This was also found in the autopsy report.. it was in his system.
WHY?????????
WHy would Michael be taking weight loss drugs??
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It may not have even been for the weight loss but more for the increased energy you get from them.After all he was practicing for the 50 tour and the older you get the less energy you have...
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For years it has been suspected that MJ had an eating disorder i.e. anorexia or bulimia.
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Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin. Any drugs that contain Ephedrine and caffeine, generally will give you unlimited energy, but the side effects would include insomia. It's a form of eg. speed.
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If he wanted energy, there are other things he could take. This "stack" is well known to aid weight loss primarily and not for energy boosts... oh, and its banned for its association with heart attacks!!!
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HOW DO WE KNOW HE TOOK IT JUST BECAUSE IT WAS IN HIS HOUSE???????? MAYBE MURRAY WAS TAKING IT.
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If he was taking everything that was on the list for this long he would have been dead a long time ago or at least in a real hospital for major problems. If he really was taking them and really died June 25th then wow. I don't know how a 50 year old could have handled all of that. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me. A big concern for me now is the tmz article that Murray says he didn't do anything wrong. Is that because he didn't do anything at all? As in he and Michael set up the place to make it look horrible and then relaxed until 12.21 June 25th for the ambulance call. Hopefully. It seems plausible.
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there really wasnt that many drugs on the list. they repeated numerous things for SHOCK VALUE of a large list. that in itself plus the added bags found make me believe this is a joke. a hoax. its gotta be fake.
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my[KING]"]HOW DO WE KNOW HE TOOK IT JUST BECAUSE IT WAS IN HIS HOUSE???????? MAYBE MURRAY WAS TAKING IT.
It was listed in the autopsy too
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my[KING]"]HOW DO WE KNOW HE TOOK IT JUST BECAUSE IT WAS IN HIS HOUSE???????? MAYBE MURRAY WAS TAKING IT.
It was listed in the autopsy too
then he must have took em for energy imo
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i[MISS]my[KING] - your siggie is distracting the heck out of me! :lol:
But on topic - I'm looking at Lou Ferrigno.
A lot of body builders use these, as stated above - to boost energy levels for workouts. Especially whey they're "cutting" - or losing the fat that they have to accumulate in order to put on muscle.
I don't doubt that Mike probably used the ECA for energy, but he really should have just had some coffee. The last thing he needed was to lose his appetite - and more weight. :?
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This is what i am saying.. why in the Lords name would Michael take a drug which its primary usage is for WEIGHT LOSS.. its not widely used for ENERGY.
This is a man who himself said he needed to eat more, and he wasnt a good eater.
So if MJ was aware of this, why would he take drugs that were appetite suppressants and weight losers.
It doesnt make sense he would take them for energy... there are loads of other supplements out there that can give you energy without the weight loss.
Also.. why were these in his blood stream if he was trying to SLEEP?? Why take uppers and downers at the same time???
MJ was suffering from severe insomnia.. so why take a drug that CAUSES insomnia????
See how it doesnt make sense?
Michael wasnt a stupid man... so why do this?? The drugs were in an UN-MARKED bottle.. could it be that someone (the doctor) was giving him drugs that MJ didnt actually realise he was taking and didnt realise the effects they had???? :?
Was someone trying to make MIchael as ill and down as they could? Break his body down to the point of no return? Mess his sleeping and metalobolism up so much that his body gave up???
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If true...It was probably to make himself appear to be ill for the hoax. I don't know.
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The drugs may never have been ingested by MJ, but rather carefully planted to look realistic-to make the hoax appear genuine.
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pp dont have to be stupid to do in hindsight stupid things
what it seems - in the mist of the hoax, is that there was a huge cocktail of ill matched drugs, we dont know if murray knew about the mix or could compute it
mike i am sure wanted to look good, wanted to be seen to he on top of his game like madonna at 50 like her
he did not eat but took strong drugs, no one around to give him the advice he needed
but in TII he did not look like he was on speed, but i suppose there are degrees.
i feel so sorry for him - slow death - a dying man and no one to help or was at that stage beyond or refusing help.
:(
i want him to be alive
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I just dont know why they were there Michael is intellegent he must know what he is doing but they would make you chew like mad all the time this worries me as you see Michael chewing madly on the gum whilst rehearsing but i still fell it is all a set up to fit the scene as michael was worried about drugs and children i just dont think he would do this to them and with them in the house with him
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It seems odd to me....and another thing I feel compelled to point out is the number of tubes of skin cream at the scene. Now, it may be realistic but it seems rather odd, to me, that the skin cream would be anywhere near the propofol etc. as it would be something MJ would apply privately-when he chose to use it. It seems very weird to me that he would have that many as well----excessive......both leading me to believe that the story is made to look like this and may not even be realistic. After all isn't this a moot point anyway?? In my opinion, it (the vitiligo) is being made a huge topic once again!!!!! It all makes me step back and ponder the entire scenario once again. Hmm.......why is Murray so concerned about returning to the mansion to hide several tubes of skin cream......Umm, maybe because it adds to the diversion and confusion OR maybe points out a greater truth....which is still hidden???????
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I just dont know why they were there Michael is intellegent he must know what he is doing but they would make you chew like mad all the time this worries me as you see Michael chewing madly on the gum whilst rehearsing but i still fell it is all a set up to fit the scene as michael was worried about drugs and children i just dont think he would do this to them and with them in the house with him
OMG YES!!!
I remember seeing him chewing and was like, "wow! is he angry at that gum or something?!?!" :?
If his energy levels were down and he knew he HAD to perform, then maybe this was an acceptable supplement to him?
The ECA stack can be taken for energy.
Ephedrine, caffeine, and aspirin were used in "energy" supplements as well.
But ephedrine was especially used in diet aides because it suppresses your appetite.
The aspirin is to prolong the effects and thin the blood so you don't have clotting & strokes with the increased blood pressure and heart rate.
These medications were sold in grocery stores and pharmacies until a few years ago.
It's not like taking some "drugs" off of the street and you didn't need a prescription.
Heck, before ephedrine was taken off the shelves I've taken it for energy.(in the form of "diet pills")
It would also explain his extreme insomnia.
As for the tubes of cream - I have a brother who has a medical condition. He also has enough $$ that he can get his prescriptions filled for months in advance so he doesn't have to keep running to the pharmacy to get more every month. Especially when the prescription is something benign that you can't overdose on - like skin cream or medicated shampoo.
It's also possible that Mike wasn't using the cream as often and even though the tubes were there, he wasn't using them up as quickly as he was getting them.
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i dont care about the creams - had a condition and wanted to even out
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First of all I don't think it was in HIS system, simply because I am sure it was not him on the autopsy table.
Maybe those drugs were used to compensate the effect of the benzos, whoever took them.
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posting.php?mode=reply&f=17&t=7902 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/posting.php?mode=reply&f=17&t=7902)
this was an interview with mikes voice coach
and he said how mike was on the last hours on wednesday night
he also mentions about the heat under the lighting - someones mentioned previously about mike wearing layers
listen to this
[youtube:22dw97dm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frpfvgcVepQ[/youtube:22dw97dm]
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If we believe that Michael is alive, then we know the "crime scene" was staged. We also know that Janet was let into the house after MJ's supposed "death,right? Therefore i believe that the Ephedrine could have been Janet's as we know that she was always dealing with weight issues...Just a thought!
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If we believe that Michael is alive, then we know the "crime scene" was staged. We also know that Janet was let into the house after MJ's supposed "death,right? Therefore i believe that the Ephedrine could have been Janet's as we know that she was always dealing with weight issues...Just a thought!
Mjj4ever777:
Great and insightful thought. It certainly would add fuel to the fire and it makes sense!
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Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin. Any drugs that contain Ephedrine and caffeine, generally will give you unlimited energy, but the side effects would include insomia. It's a form of eg. speed.
That's why MJ had trouble sleeping. OH well! I hope this is part of his hoax. When I read all the evidence I feel that he is dead, but since I am a positive person I know he is alive.
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You guys are absolutley right about the ephedrine! It would make absolutley no sense! But for Janet it would. I just find it odd that there were no labels on some of the meds. This whole case is getting crazier and crazier, Hell! I dont' think there has EVER been a celebrity case that comes close to MJ''s case! :shock:
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This is what i am saying.. why in the Lords name would Michael take a drug which its primary usage is for WEIGHT LOSS.. its not widely used for ENERGY.
This is a man who himself said he needed to eat more, and he wasnt a good eater.
So if MJ was aware of this, why would he take drugs that were appetite suppressants and weight losers.
It doesnt make sense he would take them for energy... there are loads of other supplements out there that can give you energy without the weight loss.
Also.. why were these in his blood stream if he was trying to SLEEP?? Why take uppers and downers at the same time???
MJ was suffering from severe insomnia.. so why take a drug that CAUSES insomnia????
See how it doesnt make sense?
Michael wasnt a stupid man... so why do this?? The drugs were in an UN-MARKED bottle.. could it be that someone (the doctor) was giving him drugs that MJ didnt actually realise he was taking and didnt realise the effects they had???? :?
Was someone trying to make MIchael as ill and down as they could? Break his body down to the point of no return? Mess his sleeping and metalobolism up so much that his body gave up???
DTD...this is exactly what I was thinking when I saw that list. Ephedrine is an appetite suppressant, caffeine doesn't help with insomnia...why would he be using those? I have mixed feelings about all these drugs found at the house. Sometimes I think Murray was paid to murder MJ, and make it all look like an "accidental overdose" :cry: But, then again, my heart says that MJ is alive, and all those meds were placed there. I cannot frigging understand how in this world MJ hires a CARDIOLOGIST to take care of his health in general, and a few weeks later he dies precisely from a CARDIAC ARREST? :x
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they could open a phamacy
when mikes house was raided - i understood the police took out big plastic bins of meds, what was said of this at the time
i do think it is possible that he stock piled stuff that he might need
mj may not have had a detailed knowledge of what he was taking i take supps and for all i know they could be flour
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If it turns out that MJ is dead, I agree that Murray was paid to do it with his stupid ass. However, MJ probably trusted that whatever his doctor told him was good for him he relied on his expertise and just obliged. MJ would not have any reason to think that he would give him anything that would harm him if he thought he was legitimately working for and not against him. But Murray being a cardiologist (a dumb one), would know that the drug would keep Michael awake. In that light if he was hired to kill him it would be absolutely the right combination. Give him a drug during the day under the pretense that it's for energy and not let on that it also makes you unable to sleep at night. Thus keeping Michael at an excitable level and therefore harder and harder to get to sleep at night providing Murray the needed excuse for giving him more and more drugs to make him sleep and eventually 'accidentally" overdosing him. Michael would have been wide awake and exhausted all at the same time which is unbearably miserable. At some point he would have been begging for something, anything to put him out. The opportune time for Murray to do the deed. I still have a real problem believing Murray ever graduated from Med school. He is an idiot. On all fronts.
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If he was taking everything that was on the list for this long he would have been dead a long time ago or at least in a real hospital for major problems. If he really was taking them and really died June 25th then wow. I don't know how a 50 year old could have handled all of that. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me. A big concern for me now is the tmz article that Murray says he didn't do anything wrong. Is that because he didn't do anything at all? As in he and Michael set up the place to make it look horrible and then relaxed until 12.21 June 25th for the ambulance call. Hopefully. It seems plausible.
Then who's body did the coroner perform an autopsy on ? I asked this question repeatedly and I cannot get a reasonable answer . ephedrine helps studying,thinking,or concentrating .It is common for Professional athletes & weightlifters to use {i got this off wiki} .Ephedrine has also been used for asthma & bronccitis , for centuries ,which is consistent with the autopsy report . Why would MJ "have himself killed " with his kids ,just down the stair case . Why would he intentionally put his children thru that ? :? when he did not have to ?
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To me none of it makes sense. Either hoax or Murder plain and simple. :( If Murray Murdered MJ then who hired him?
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Blah ive taken ephedra for a week once...I just makes you angsious and nerveus....but it does make you loose weight alotttttt!
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If it turns out that MJ is dead, I agree that Murray was paid to do it with his stupid ass. However, MJ probably trusted that whatever his doctor told him was good for him he relied on his expertise and just obliged. MJ would not have any reason to think that he would give him anything that would harm him if he thought he was legitimately working for and not against him. But Murray being a cardiologist (a dumb one), would know that the drug would keep Michael awake. In that light if he was hired to kill him it would be absolutely the right combination. Give him a drug during the day under the pretense that it's for energy and not let on that it also makes you unable to sleep at night. Thus keeping Michael at an excitable level and therefore harder and harder to get to sleep at night providing Murray the needed excuse for giving him more and more drugs to make him sleep and eventually 'accidentally" overdosing him. Michael would have been wide awake and exhausted all at the same time which is unbearably miserable. At some point he would have been begging for something, anything to put him out. The opportune time for Murray to do the deed. I still have a real problem believing Murray ever graduated from Med school. He is an idiot. On all fronts.
Agreed.. he is a bufoon.
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Just throwing this out there found in Schmuley interviews with MJ
MJ "On that Dangerous tour she (LIZ TAYLOR) fed me because I wouldn't eat. When I get upset, I stop eating, sometimes until I'm unconscious. She took the spoon and opened my mouth and made me eat. I go through serious food crises when I could go WEEKS without eating. I TAKE STUFF TO KEEP WEIGHT ON>
There ya go. :?
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If we believe that Michael is alive, then we know the "crime scene" was staged. We also know that Janet was let into the house after MJ's supposed "death,right? Therefore i believe that the Ephedrine could have been Janet's as we know that she was always dealing with weight issues...Just a thought!
I think your onto something there. I dont think Michael would take that. He didnt have a problem keeping weight off at all. And the bull about being anorexic is just that. Michael liked to eat and enjoyed it. Sure he had troubles sleeping at times but he always said even years before in prior interviews he didnt sleep much, he was always on the go, always working
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But why would Janet be taking her drugs out at this time? I don't get it unless it's a plant as part of the hoax.
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Okay.. I have a little theory about this...
take 09.. Michael didnt lok half as thin as he did when we saw him in TII.. i think that if this is a hoax and he still alive then these pills that cause "rapid weight loss" were used toward the end of the filming for TII to make him look really unhealthy and frail so that when the pulled off the hoax it would be more believeable. He wouldnt have had to take them for long and so soon as they finished filming.. stops taking them?
Theres a lot of ifs and buts i know ... i mean... they are linked to heart attacks and strokes? whould they risk that? But if he looked healthy like in 09 would people really have believed that he died.. ?
How many would be considered a danger ?
He would be surrounded by poeple who knew how to handle these pills...
But...
if not... ? :?
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Okay.. I have a little theory about this...
take 09.. Michael didnt lok half as thin as he did when we saw him in TII.. i think that if this is a hoax and he still alive then these pills that cause "rapid weight loss" were used toward the end of the filming for TII to make him look really unhealthy and frail so that when the pulled off the hoax it would be more believeable. He wouldnt have had to take them for long and so soon as they finished filming.. stops taking them?
Theres a lot of ifs and buts i know ... i mean... they are linked to heart attacks and strokes? whould they risk that? But if he looked healthy like in 09 would people really have believed that he died.. ?
Well, I find that way too risky, you know, put him (or anyone) under weight on purpose? :?
And, IMO he did look very thin the whole 2009, not healthy at all. People that looks very healthy daily dies because of cardiac arrests, why would people don't believe it?
Also, I'm not completely sure that the primary use of the Ephedrine is the weight loss, but I could be wrong.
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Okay.. I have a little theory about this...
take 09.. Michael didnt lok half as thin as he did when we saw him in TII.. i think that if this is a hoax and he still alive then these pills that cause "rapid weight loss" were used toward the end of the filming for TII to make him look really unhealthy and frail so that when the pulled off the hoax it would be more believeable. He wouldnt have had to take them for long and so soon as they finished filming.. stops taking them?
i think you might be scarily close with this one.
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Okay.. I have a little theory about this...
take 09.. Michael didnt lok half as thin as he did when we saw him in TII.. i think that if this is a hoax and he still alive then these pills that cause "rapid weight loss" were used toward the end of the filming for TII to make him look really unhealthy and frail so that when the pulled off the hoax it would be more believeable. He wouldnt have had to take them for long and so soon as they finished filming.. stops taking them?
i think you might be scarily close with this one.
This makes sense to me it is possible for the appearence of frailness
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Don't jump on me for this, im only putting it out there as an idea but what if a double DID die on that day and michael had to slim down to look as ill as his double? Or even without a double! Maybe he wanted to look ill for the death day to make it more realistic.
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Don't jump on me for this, im only putting it out there as an idea but what if a double DID die on that day and michael had to slim down to look as ill as his double? Or even without a double! Maybe he wanted to look ill for the death day to make it more realistic.
also thought about the idea...I think a lot of us had the idea....a double died or "died" instead of Michael...maybe as a decoy, so he can get out there? IDK
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It seems like he wanted to loose weight in a very short time for some reason...cause all those pills seem to cause weight loss..cafeine, ephidrine,..
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:?
The answers are already here. We just have to figure the jigsaw puzzle out.
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Don't jump on me for this, im only putting it out there as an idea but what if a double DID die on that day and michael had to slim down to look as ill as his double? Or even without a double! Maybe he wanted to look ill for the death day to make it more realistic.
Then, the man who died was also taken Ephedrine? At least that's what the Autopsy report states, if we're going to consider everything...
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http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/posting.php?mode=reply&f=17&t=7902
this was an interview with mikes voice coach
and he said how mike was on the last hours on wednesday night
he also mentions about the heat under the lighting - someones mentioned previously about mike wearing layers
listen to this
[youtube:j9na8j9j]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frpfvgcVepQ[/youtube:j9na8j9j]
Thank you Arabian nights: for posting this video, Dorian seems like a very honest man, I like what he said " I don't want act like Michael, and I were were pals, and he would call me over for ice cream." He didn't try to look like they were best buddies, he was just real honest, he didn't try to be something he is not. Very few people are that honest in show business...
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I think this story is fabricated..
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maybe turn this the other way?
why would mike during a tour feel compelled to take slimming drugs -
he had passed is first medical and aeg could not get insurance for more than 30 shows without the second medical
kenny fed him food and took him to bowling where he ate all the chicken strips
why would a slim man, take further drugs
you may say he was addicted to them - but lets turn this on its head for a moment
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Heismypeterpan, whom I am starting to believe more & more. Has recently said on her twitter that MJ signed on for 10 shows. Then people started getting greedy & manipulated & lied to him & added 40 more shows. MJ said time & time again he didn't want to do the other 40 shows but Randy Phillips, etc just laughed at him & said "You are going to do each & every one of these shows". When he didn't want to go to rehearsals they sent people over to MAKE him go. He had a plan to do the first 10 shows & record them & make a DVD & cancel the other 40 shows but they wouldn't let him. So she says, that he was trying everything, that he was purposely losing weight to fail the exam so that he wouldn't have to do the extra shows. That could explain weight loss drugs. She said his real weight was between 108 & 111 because he was losing weight.
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Yes, I believe he must have been taking them on purpose (he even kept them in a white unlabeled bottle remember), cause he lost a lot of weight in a short time. And Kenny was probably trying to feed him because he was afraid the concerts would get cancelled.
It seems Michael was desperately trying to find a way out of the 40 extra shows.
Let's hope he did find someone to help him out cause this doesn't look good for us believers.
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Yes, I believe he must have been taking them on purpose (he even kept them in a white unlabeled bottle remember), cause he lost a lot of weight in a short time. And Kenny was probably trying to feed him because he was afraid the concerts would get cancelled.
It seems Michael was desperately trying to find a way out of the 40 extra shows.
Let's hope he did find someone to help him out cause this doesn't look good for us believers.
What looks good for us believers is the fact that the weight loss & anything else he tried, didn't work. They still made sure he passed the medical exam so that they could make him do the shows & get paid. However, if that didn't work, he then resorted to the hoax ;)
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Yes, I also believe they let him pass the physicals, no matter what.
And since he was so desperate, he must have become even more desperate when he realized the shows would not be cancelled.
So it still could be very much possible he found no other way then to have to hoax his death.
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Yes, I believe he must have been taking them on purpose (he even kept them in a white unlabeled bottle remember), cause he lost a lot of weight in a short time. And Kenny was probably trying to feed him because he was afraid the concerts would get cancelled.
It seems Michael was desperately trying to find a way out of the 40 extra shows.
Let's hope he did find someone to help him out cause this doesn't look good for us believers.
What looks good for us believers is the fact that the weight loss & anything else he tried, didn't work. They still made sure he passed the medical exam so that they could make him do the shows & get paid. However, if that didn't work, he then resorted to the hoax ;)
Actors lose weight/put on weight quickly for filming, eg, Tom Hanks in Philadelphia and Renee Zelleweger in Bridget Jones Diary. It is possible MJ took slimming drugs for a short period because he was acting the part of a sick person.
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Whatever Michael's reason was for taking those pills we're basing all of our speculations on the AR (which includes this drug) which would mean we're assuming that Michael passed right? :? If it was a double that died (a theory I have a hard time believing...) we're not actually discussing why MICHAEL took these drugs. See where I'm going? It was just a thought.
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I have some interesting links about the use of ephedrine.
If you check out the list of medication that Michael Jackson used, he shouldnt take ephedrin at all!
Here a experience from someone using ephedrine together with xanax
>http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9281
And here a subscription about side-effects from ephedrine
>http://www.buyvasoproephedrine.com/ephedrine-side-effects.html
Anyway bottom line is, the medication mj used mixed together is a recipe for instant death.
Would he want that? I dont think so.. :|
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Actors lose weight/put on weight quickly for filming, eg, Tom Hanks in Philadelphia and Renee Zelleweger in Bridget Jones Diary. It is possible MJ took slimming drugs for a short period because he was acting the part of a sick person.
''for filming'' perhabs of a Movie.. anything come to mind? This Is It? ;)
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just another one of those lies the media tells us; also part of MJ's message :D
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Yes, I believe he must have been taking them on purpose (he even kept them in a white unlabeled bottle remember), cause he lost a lot of weight in a short time. And Kenny was probably trying to feed him because he was afraid the concerts would get cancelled.
It seems Michael was desperately trying to find a way out of the 40 extra shows.
Let's hope he did find someone to help him out cause this doesn't look good for us believers.
What looks good for us believers is the fact that the weight loss & anything else he tried, didn't work. They still made sure he passed the medical exam so that they could make him do the shows & get paid. However, if that didn't work, he then resorted to the hoax ;)
This is a possibility that i am leaning towards.
Mike was so desperate to get out of the 50 shows, he was willing to do anything - including taking weight loss drugs to try and fail his physical.
It has been suggested that it was MIkes idea to cancel the 40 extra shows and release a concert DVD to appease the fans - this makes perfect sense to me. Kenny O stole the idea!!! I never felt comfortable at the very beginning that TII movie was Kennys idea. It sits right with me, that this was Mikes idea... remember Stephen Spielberg stole Mikes idea for Dreamworks???... took the credit for Mikes creativity?? Kenny o just isnt that savvy.. so i believe this to be true.
So.. two scenarios:
Mike was so desperate to get out of the shows that he was using weight loss tablets to shed weight and fail the medical. The weight loss combined with Propofol use combined to make his death and he did indeed die on June 2009 - however, what bothers me about this is the whole question about the Propofol fatal dose and the two minutes the doctor went to the bathroom, etc... and it seems the Propofol dose had nothing to do with the weight of MJ. It could just be that the two are not connected.. only Mikes desperation and unhappiness was.
OR... Mike was so desperate to get out of the shows, he was losing weight on purpose in order to get out of the shows and fail the medical. When he realised that they would pass him on the medical regardless and there really was no way out... Mike faked his death. His final act of pure desperation... but he would have had to have planned this beforehand.
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Okay.. I have a little theory about this...
take 09.. Michael didnt lok half as thin as he did when we saw him in TII.. i think that if this is a hoax and he still alive then these pills that cause "rapid weight loss" were used toward the end of the filming for TII to make him look really unhealthy and frail so that when the pulled off the hoax it would be more believeable. He wouldnt have had to take them for long and so soon as they finished filming.. stops taking them?
Theres a lot of ifs and buts i know ... i mean... they are linked to heart attacks and strokes? whould they risk that? But if he looked healthy like in 09 would people really have believed that he died.. ?
How many would be considered a danger ?
He would be surrounded by poeple who knew how to handle these pills...
But...
if not... ? :?
but in his around his 50th birthday he was extremely thin, in fact at the end of 2005 he was thin - see the pj's
and please it was a 3 year tour - its been on the internet and frank referred to significant world tour
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I have some interesting links about the use of ephedrine.
If you check out the list of medication that Michael Jackson used, he shouldnt take ephedrin at all!
Here a experience from someone using ephedrine together with xanax
>http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9281
And here a subscription about side-effects from ephedrine
>http://www.buyvasoproephedrine.com/ephedrine-side-effects.html
Anyway bottom line is, the medication mj used mixed together is a recipe for instant death.
Would he want that? I dont think so.. :|
Ive put quotes from those articles here. This is what stood out to me:
feeling horrible and drenched with sweat, boiling and freezing at the same time.
remember MJ telling his nurse he felt "hot" on one side of his body, and "cold" on the other???
potentially fatal side effects including: stroke, heart attack, seizures, or severe mental disorders
From the autopsy... MJ (if he did), didnt die of a seizure or a heart attack.. it was respiratory failure caused by a large dose of Propofol which then led to his heart stopping.
BUT.. what obviously pops out is the fact MJ himself said he felt hot and cold, and this seems to have been the experience of other people taking this drug.. so possible MJ felt this way, not because of the Propofol but because of the Ephedrine.
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For years it has been suspected that MJ had an eating disorder i.e. anorexia or bulimia.
I don't believe that. He was just a thin man and was probably that way mostly because of his dancing. There are times in his life when he had weight on him so it's just unfounded rumor.
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So.. two scenarios:
Mike was so desperate to get out of the shows that he was using weight loss tablets to shed weight and fail the medical. The weight loss combined with Propofol use combined to make his death and he did indeed die on June 2009 - however, what bothers me about this is the whole question about the Propofol fatal dose and the two minutes the doctor went to the bathroom, etc... and it seems the Propofol dose had nothing to do with the weight of MJ. It could just be that the two are not connected.. only Mikes desperation and unhappiness was.
OR... Mike was so desperate to get out of the shows, he was losing weight on purpose in order to get out of the shows and fail the medical. When he realised that they would pass him on the medical regardless and there really was no way out... Mike faked his death. His final act of pure desperation... but he would have had to have planned this beforehand.
That would be very sad, but why do you believe he took the tablets by himself?
Let's say Michael was medicated with these tablets (Caffeine+Ephedrine+Aspirin) for its "energizing/stimulating" effects, not for the weight loss (it was only a "secondary effect").
What if the doctor (willing to do anything, that's why he was hired for) was said to keep Michael "active and able" for the rehearsals and the 50 shows, at any risk, because the shows would not be cancelled? Then, Michael would be very anxious and not be able to sleep, so the doc gave him loads of Benzos, but it just didn't work, so he administered Propofol...
I'm just guessing here, not saying he's dead.
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we have said a thousand times that Michael signed on for 10 shows and not 50. thank you Heismyperterpan :roll: However, I find it hard to believe that Michael would purposely take drugs to lose weight to fail an exam. I just can't buy that one. I think Murray tricked him into ingesting them under the pretense they were for high energy without letting MJ know that one of the main side effects would be that he wouldn't be able to sleep. On the other hand, Michael would've passed that exam even if he was in cardiac arrest because I believe that they were paid to ensure that he'd pass. I have NEVER trusted Kenny Ortega. Never have and never will.
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@mjj29081958 heismypeterpan first threw this out there on twitter.. and it makes sense.
MJ wanted out of the 50 shows and so lost weight on purpose to try and fail the medical. I dont know where Propofol fits in.. other than he was desperate.
Im only trying to discuss the weight loss drugs here.. they are puzzling as they were in an un-marked bottle and MJ did drop a lot of weight in a short space of time!
I dont believe MJ would take pills from a bottle without knowing what they were and what they did.. i think he knew exactly what he was doing and this is why the bottle was un-marked. Maybe even Dr Murray didnt know what they were, perhaps??
@hesouttamylife.. yes, it makes perfect sense that Kenny O stole the concert DVD idea from Michael, doesnt it? Ive never trusted him either.. he smiles too much "dont trust the ones with the biggest smiles".
Also.. i think if MJ was desperate enough, he would have done this to try and fail the medical.. absolutely i think he would have done that. He was trapped and he felt he had no way out.
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i disagree he had been losing weight way before 2009, he just looked a little too skin at the time of the shows
look at him when he turned 50, look at him in the middle east, look at him in ireland, when he went to japan 2007, look at him during the 2005 trial , thin, slim.
one thing i am amazed about i am sure that murray could not use it - is that mike wanted to fail the test - and that maybe he was to help
but when was the next set of tests, surely before the shows began
does anyone know
2004
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vDnwetyC_w[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOmE-4IO8SY[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dI46XY8S9E[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
2003
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQwY4ll1Kfc[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
2006
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJGMhUwdM0[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH7ZZwPcgOg[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6OQVIUkY5w[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
[youtube:3cuylxvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp8A_0ycKGs[/youtube:3cuylxvv]
in 2001 mike had a little meat but after then he was slimmed down, and his clothing got tighter and more tailored, he also wore boots with a bit of a heel.
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we have said a thousand times that Michael signed on for 10 shows and not 50. thank you Heismyperterpan :roll: However, I find it hard to believe that Michael would purposely take drugs to lose weight to fail an exam. I just can't buy that one. I think Murray tricked him into ingesting them under the pretense they were for high energy without letting MJ know that one of the main side effects would be that he wouldn't be able to sleep. On the other hand, Michael would've passed that exam even if he was in cardiac arrest because I believe that they were paid to ensure that he'd pass. I have NEVER trusted Kenny Ortega. Never have and never will.
Exactly, that's what I meant.
And I agree, I find the people surrounding Michael very shady...
i disagree he had been losing weight way before 2009, he just looked a little too skin at the time of the shows
look at him when he turned 50, look at him in the middle east, look at him in ireland, look at him during the 2005 trial , thin, slim.
but when was the next set of tests, surely before the shows began
does anyone know
Agree with you too about Michael's weight, he was already very thin, just look at some pics...
And no, sorry I even never knew Insurances needs more than one set of tests...
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@Arabian nights. I know MJ has always been slim.. but there is slim and then there is unhealthy skinny. You can tell when someone is just slim, and then when they are underweight.
The clips from 2005 are when MJ was under a lot of stress and unhappiness and i believed he dropped weight because of this,
The other clips he just looks slim to me, but not unhealthy slim. In TII he looked unhealthy slim and this seemed a large drop from when he was seen in March 2009 from the O2 announcements and varous other photos from around that time.
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he possibly went one step further or was it just the additional dancing that eat up further weight?
so he was slim before - a bit too slim from the time of his birthday and the additional dancing made he look unhealthy?
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I took sliming pills a few years ago not sure if they were the same ones i can not remeber the names of them. They were strong and the effect they had on me were boundless energy could not stop talking edgy snappy could not sit still kept chewing my lip and absolutly no sleep it was very hard to fall asleep I would be up at 4 am doing the housework and rapid weight loss, i stopped taking them because of the sleep problem then it set of a thyroid problem wich made me ill. So all in all it was a bad thing for me to do but i wanted to tell you how it makes you feel and that is ,so much energy restless and lack of sleep. Michael would have known that he is far from silly. It is not a good thing for anybody to do I was stupid but wanted to lose the weight and i did this with my friend and she was just as bad as me. i know Michael liked his chewing gum but he was chewing madly in some of the clips and that is what i did. I feel he did it to fail the medical but there was no way they were going to let him fail it is all about money they didnt care about him as a person i feel.
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he possibly went one step further or was it just the additional dancing that eat up further weight?
so he was slim before - a bit too slim from the time of his birthday and the additional dancing made he look unhealthy?
also, people's metabolism is different. it changes periodically. that would explain the weight changes.
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A fast metobolism cannot explain weight loss like this:
The first pic is of MJ having the "light man" fitting. Its an upsetting picture and we have to look at it without emotions. This is not a man who has lost weight because he is exercising or has a fast metabolism. Shamone now!! I know what my eyes see.. my eyes see a man that is starving himself. Just look at him.
Im also very naturally slim and i can drop weight fast... but there is a difference between being thin and being underweight. You can see it in his face.
When i train for athletics... and at times in my life i have been going to the gym twice a day and doing 2 hour sessions at each... i have to constantly eat and top up with protein shakes just to keep my weight from dropping if i do too much cardio.
MJ was supposed to be eating and had a nutrionalist and a doctor!!! So why does he look like this?? :shock:
Ive put a picture of Michael from the time he was arrested for his molestation trials. He has a very similar look here. Clearly back then Michael was under a lot of stress and his weight dropped dramatically back then too..
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Found this article from May 2009:
As if Michael Jackson didn't have enough problems to deal with, it seems his weight is another issue.
The pin thin musician must be on the Victoria Beckham diet, cuz he's looking skinnier everyday.
In fact, reports state MJ is about 20lbs underweight and really needs to pile on the pounds before he starts his upcoming 50 shows in London, which begin on July 8th and go through February 24th.
However, promoters from AEG claim the 50-year-old King of Pop is "extremely fit" and in perfect condition to do the shows. Many insiders doubt that's the truth, adding that he's to frail to even do some of the dance steps.
One source says “There are concerns Michael is too frail. He has been ordered to eat more but he refuses to and eats like a bird."
In the meantime, Jacko is rehearsing in constantly in Los Angeles.
Don't forget to eat!
Read More: Wacko Ordered To Gain Some Weight | PerezHilton.com http://perezhilton.com/2009-05-07-wacko ... z0lPbngwqT (http://perezhilton.com/2009-05-07-wacko-ordered-to-gain-some-weight#ixzz0lPbngwqT)
Celebrity Juice, Not from Concentrate
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So, I assume he would had to pass more than one medical exam? Because he already "passed" one so, for wich one was he "losing weight on purpose"? ...
I don't follow people on Twitter, YouTube for the Hoax, so I'm not sure what is she/he exactly claiming... Maybe that’s why it doesn’t make sense to me…
I mean, I can understand he may wanted to get out of the 50 shows, that these tablets were found, and that the Autopsy shows there was ephedrine in that body, but what I find unbelievable is this “loss weight in order to don't pass the test, being a Michael's idea”… I still think the drug was administered by the Doctor as stimulant, since I think he was not physically in shape to confront 50 shows.
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I don't see what's unbelievable about it. She said he had been trying to lose weight on purpose to FAIL the test he had to take. But they wouldn't let him, they passed him no matter what. He was frustrated & didn't want to do the 50 shows, he only agreed to 10. We've all heard that before. It's plausible. He probably signed up for the 10 as either a comeback or a final thing before retiring from the music biz for good. Who knows, anyways they, I am under the impression they would be Frank Dileo, Randy Phillips, KO, AEG, etc. ALL wanted him to do this for money of course, that's all they wanted. They got greedy & kept adding shows, shows Michael didn't intend on doing & according to Heismypeterpan, he kept trying to tell them, let's just do the 10 shows & release it on DVD as well & then that's it. But they kept pushing & kept sending people to make him go to rehearsals. He was trying to get out of doing what he didn't agree to do but they were trying to force him to do. That makes sense. He knew they weren't going to listen to him, they were forceful & so he tried losing the weight & whatever else, not knowing that they would just ignore his weight loss & pass him anyways. He becomes frustrated & desperate not to do the extra shows. So he fakes his death. It seems possible.
Now, we all have seen the pics, like the one where he is doing the fitting. He is the skinniest I have ever seen him. He looks like he had lost a lot of weight since the announcement. Either, he was doing it on purpose to get out of the shows & stressing over the control these people had. Or he was just dumb & they were able to drug him & make him lose the weight. Sorry but in my opinion, Michael was never dumb, so the whole he was being drugged by the doctor they did this doesn't seem likely to me. However the "I don't like what these men are doing, I don't want to do these extra shows, I didn't agree to them, I don't like what they're trying to do to me, I'm afraid of them, I refuse to do the extra shows, if they won't cancel them then I'll make them", kind of scenario makes more sense to me. I truly believe & have since the beginning, that people were trying to make these shows happen, strictly for the money & only the money. They talked Michael into them & got him on board. He wanted to do them (the 10 shows) because he wanted his kids to be able to enjoy them & he missed performing. However, once he realized that these people were only after the money & they kept adding on without his consent, he had second thoughts. I'm not saying Heismypeterpan is 100% credible, but what she is saying is believable in my opinion.
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but would weight loss be a reason to cancel the world tour
i dont think so all it would do is postpone the missed shows - just like whitney
it would have to be more life threatening
i even thought that maybe it was a staged overdose, that went wrong , but you would call 911 immediately not delay it.
i thus do not think this was mikes way out
he has been in the game too long - this would not have worked
and plus aeg had footage of him performing to show to the insurance company - hey an additional reason for the footage.
mike would have needed another medical excuse that would warrant - it would have to be a prolonged physical ailment
@dancing the second picture is tragic, i still dont understand his family, why didnt they make him eat - they all have enough padding and their brother fading - he looks like he was eating bread and water, nothing with any substance or nutrition - i am shocked - he may have needed some emotional help and support - i have heard that mike was needy but boy - how could you stand by
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Found this article from May 2009:
As if Michael Jackson didn't have enough problems to deal with, it seems his weight is another issue.
The pin thin musician must be on the Victoria Beckham diet, cuz he's looking skinnier everyday.
In fact, reports state MJ is about 20lbs underweight and really needs to pile on the pounds before he starts his upcoming 50 shows in London, which begin on July 8th and go through February 24th.
However, promoters from AEG claim the 50-year-old King of Pop is "extremely fit" and in perfect condition to do the shows. Many insiders doubt that's the truth, adding that he's to frail to even do some of the dance steps.
One source says “There are concerns Michael is too frail. He has been ordered to eat more but he refuses to and eats like a bird."
In the meantime, Jacko is rehearsing in constantly in Los Angeles.
Don't forget to eat!
Read More: Wacko Ordered To Gain Some Weight | PerezHilton.com http://perezhilton.com/2009-05-07-wacko ... z0lPbngwqT (http://perezhilton.com/2009-05-07-wacko-ordered-to-gain-some-weight#ixzz0lPbngwqT)
Celebrity Juice, Not from Concentrate
I know perez hilton isn't the most relieable source but let's say this is true. What you highlighted really made me go :?: There's one thing to forget to eat but to refuse to eat?! Michael always knew he was slim because he always had to defend himself about it so I doubt he wanted to loose weight because he thought he was fat. So why would he refuse to eat?! If it wasn't for trying to fail the physical what other reason could there be?
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Maybe he thought someone was trying to poison him.
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Maybe he thought someone was trying to poison him.
But it says he "eats like a bird" which would mean that he ate but very very little and what would then be the purpose of the weight loss drugs? However, we're still basing our specualtions on the AR which is a bit worrying.
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Maybe he thought someone was trying to poison him.
then he could have got his mums cook to prepare food, he could have got another chef, he could have got a taster, he could try and cook or heat up something for himself - he was not a diva
he could have had a portion tested. he could have order deli takeouts
he could have checked in to a hotel and got room service
there are other options
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was there are trace of poisioning in the AR - i have not read it but i dont think that was mentioned
if anything mike was taking a red bull substitute
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was there are trace of poisioning in the AR - i have not read it but i dont think that was mentioned
if anything mike was taking a red bull substitute
No poison was mentioned.. no caffeine either.
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so who found this drug, did murray prescribe, was it over the counter, was it something that murray was taking ( he needs it) was it something his sisters left???
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http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-j ... opofol/54/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-jackson-stimulant-ephedrine-caffeine-propofol/54/)
Michael Jackson -- Strong Stimulant Found
Originally posted Apr 7th 2010 5:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
There may be a clear explanation as to why Michael Jackson had trouble sleeping the night before he died -- authorities found a pill bottle in the room containing tablets that would have hyped the singer up big time.
The bottle, which had no label, contained 13 tablets. Each tablet had a combination of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. The commercial sale of ephedrine -- a stimulant designed for weight loss
-- is banned in the U.S. because of reports of heart attacks, strokes and even death.
Each pill contained 25 mg of ephedrine, 200 mg of caffeine and 80 mg of aspirin. The caffeine alone in each pill is equivalent to nearly a 6-pack of Coca-Cola.
One company that manufactures the drug warns against using it past mid-afternoon, because it will cause insomnia.
According to the toxicology results, ephedrine was present in Jackson's urine
Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-j ... z0lTPA8Lzd (http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-jackson-stimulant-ephedrine-caffeine-propofol/54/#ixzz0lTPA8Lzd)
so an unnamed bottle of a banned med disclosed by TMZ and leaked by TMZ as part of the defence?
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http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-jackson-stimulant-ephedrine-caffeine-propofol/54/
Michael Jackson -- Strong Stimulant Found
Originally posted Apr 7th 2010 5:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
There may be a clear explanation as to why Michael Jackson had trouble sleeping the night before he died -- authorities found a pill bottle in the room containing tablets that would have hyped the singer up big time.
The bottle, which had no label, contained 13 tablets. Each tablet had a combination of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. The commercial sale of ephedrine -- a stimulant designed for weight loss
-- is banned in the U.S. because of reports of heart attacks, strokes and even death.
Each pill contained 25 mg of ephedrine, 200 mg of caffeine and 80 mg of aspirin. The caffeine alone in each pill is equivalent to nearly a 6-pack of Coca-Cola.
One company that manufactures the drug warns against using it past mid-afternoon, because it will cause insomnia.
According to the toxicology results, ephedrine was present in Jackson's urine
Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-j ... z0lTPA8Lzd (http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-jackson-stimulant-ephedrine-caffeine-propofol/54/#ixzz0lTPA8Lzd)
so an unnamed bottle of a banned med disclosed by TMZ and leaked by TMZ as part of the defence?
Cant see how it could be used in the defence. It was Propofol that killed him, not epinephine.
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Someone on perezhilton.com (I know not the greatest source :roll: ) that ephedrine was used to restart Michael's heart and that's why it was found in his urine... Can anyone with a medical background confirm if that's a normal procedure? Would explain why there wasn't any caffeine...
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Someone on perezhilton.com (I know not the greatest source :roll: ) that ephedrine was used to restart Michael's heart and that's why it was found in his urine... Can anyone with a medical background confirm if that's a normal procedure? Would explain why there wasn't any caffeine...
Oohh.. interesting!!
But to have been in his urine, his circulation must have been working for it to pass into his urine??? If he was dead and unresponsive like they say.. how could it have passed through into his urine when his organs had packed up?
Most interesting.. hmmmm...
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Someone on perezhilton.com (I know not the greatest source :roll: ) that ephedrine was used to restart Michael's heart and that's why it was found in his urine... Can anyone with a medical background confirm if that's a normal procedure? Would explain why there wasn't any caffeine...
Oohh.. interesting!!
But to have been in his urine, his circulation must have been working for it to pass into his urine??? If he was dead and unresponsive like they say.. how could it have passed through into his urine when his organs had packed up?
Most interesting.. hmmmm...
Yeah, that's what I thought too. How could it be in his urine if it was used for that purpose? Strange...
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I think it's Epinephrine instead Ephedrine.
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that is the procedure to resuscitate someone from a heart attack
thought mike had the hallelujah method for resuscitation
http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-208ab16 ... a120a.aspx (http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-208ab165-bbd1-4d35-9e02-885b17da120a.aspx)
hallelujah package
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... cd.01.html (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/28/acd.01.html)
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Aired July 28, 2009 - 22:00 ET
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight, breaking news, dramatic new developments in the Michael Jackson case and the battle for his money. We have just now learned of the toxicology and coroner reports will come out, but next week. The coroner's office all along saying they were on track to deliver them this week, but, tonight, that has changed.
Also, police today raiding the Las Vegas home and office of his personal doctor, Conrad Murray. And, as they did, CNN was uncovering new details of Jackson's final moments. Today, we learned how long paramedics worked on his apparently lifeless body before taking him to the hospital.
We're also learning about a fight now brewing over the Jackson estate, the family vs. AEG, the concert promoter, and what AEG is after.
Randi Kaye has got details of the coroner's report, the battle to keep Jackson alive, and the money battle in Los Angeles.
But we begin with the raids on Dr. Murray, and Ted Rowlands in Las Vegas -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, two separate search warrants were served in Las Vegas, one at Murray's home in a gated community, the other one here at Murray's Las Vegas clinic.
The first one -- or the one at the house, only took three hours to serve. They went in. Murray greeted them. He was in the house at the time. They took out one computer hard drive and some cell phones.
Here, a much different story. They were here for a total of eight hours, going through medical evidence. They came out with what they called document evidence. They came out with a number of different things that were in briefcases and -- and other smaller items, not the big items that we saw in Houston, more smaller, more targeted, it seems, but it took them a while -- a long time to get them.
COOPER: So, Ted, at -- at -- where is Dr. Murray right now? Do we know? Is he in Las Vegas?
ROWLANDS: He is in Las Vegas. And, according to a neighbor, he has been in Las Vegas for much of the period of the last few weeks. His attorney has said that his life has been virtually miserable. He hasn't left his home because, every time he goes out, he is encountered by people. And he has to deal with the public on a level which he has never felt before. And that is why he has stayed at home.
But neighbors say he has been in his home and in Las Vegas for much of this period, while all this investigation has been circulating.
COOPER: All right, Ted, thanks.
On now to the new details Randi Kaye has been uncovering about the growing money battle over Jackson's estate, the coroner's report, and new information about what happened when paramedics first arrived at Jackson's home after that 911 call.
Randi, first, the breaking news.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we do have breaking news to tell you about.
As you know, sources all along telling us that the toxicology report and the coroner's report and the autopsy results would be made public by the end of this week. Well, now, tonight, I can tell you, as you heard as well, that the -- the final results and the -- and the report will be made public until some time next week.
I spoke with a source with knowledge of the autopsy. And he told me that the finishing touches are still being done, still being put on that report, and we can't expect it until some time next week -- so, Anderson, yet another delay.
COOPER: All right, Randi, you have been working your sources, have some new information tonight regarding the timeline and the scene when paramedics actually arrived at the house after that 911 call. What did they find?
KAYE: Well, this is some new information.
I spoke with Captain Steve Ruda from the L.A. Fire Department, and he told me that Michael was not breathing and had no pulse when paramedics arrived at the scene at his rented mansion. He said was in -- quote -- "dire need of help."
Now, let me set the scene for you at the house and put some things in perspective here and show you a little bit of the timeline of how this all occurred. We know that the 911 call came in at 12:22 in the afternoon on June 25. Apparently, it was not mentioned -- Michael Jackson was not mentioned, that he was the victim there.
The call, we now know, lasted 32 seconds. It took paramedics, four of them in all, three minutes and 17 seconds to get to his house. Captain Ruda with the fire department told me that Mr. Jackson got what he called the hallelujah package, which means he really got the works in this case.
And, at the house, Anderson, paramedics worked on Michael Jackson for 42 minutes.
COOPER: Never heard that term, the hallelujah package.
Why -- why did they work on him at the house for those 42 minutes? Why not just take him to the hospital right away? Was he not stable; he couldn't be moved?
KAYE: I wanted to know that same thing, actually. And he -- he called it scoop and run. That's when they pick up and transport right away. That did not happen in this case, for a number of reasons, Anderson.
First of all, I'm told that Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's personal physician, who we just heard a little more about from Ted there, in Vegas, he took responsibility at the scene, this fire captain told me. He was in charge. He was calling the shots. He decided and determined that it was best to work on him there for those 42 minutes and try and get him breathing at the scene.
Captain Ruda told me that, when a patient is pulseless and not breathing, there are many things, of course, that paramedics can do to try to get the heartbeat again. They gave him oxygen. They gave medicines that he would not name. Nothing seemed to work.
But, again, this is treatment that was prescribed at the scene, and that's why he wasn't transported. And, in those 42 minutes, that's actually part of the golden hour, I'm told. That's what paramedics call it. It's all the time they have to jump-start the blood pressure and get the heart going again.
The fire captain I spoke with told me that, if a patient is just too far gone, obviously, no matter how long they work on him, nothing is going to help.
COOPER: And how much time has to pass before a patient is -- is simply too far gone?
KAYE: A patient, I'm told by this fire captain, can go without oxygen for about four to six minutes before severe brain damage sets in, followed by death.
I asked him if that's what happened in the case of Michael Jackson, and Captain Ruda told me -- quote -- "Based on what paramedics saw at the scene, they tried every technique known in the field." Still, we know, he could not be saved.
In the end, they loaded him into the ambulance at his rented mansion in Beverly Hills. It was about a two-mile drive or so from there to the UCLA emergency room. It took a little over four minutes, and, as we know now, that is where he died.
COOPER: All right, Randi, another hearing to -- to help settle Michael Jackson's estate is coming up on Monday. So, there's now reports of more infighting today between the family and the executors. What have you learned on what's going on?
KAYE: This seems never-ending.
As you mentioned, the -- the court hearing coming up. Well, in -- in advance of that, court documents filed today, Katherine Jackson, his -- Jackson's mother, demanding a pile of financial documents in advance of this August 3 hearing.
And those doctors would include contracts that her son had with his record labels, concert officials, promoters, even a contract that he had with his father, apparently.
Now, as you know, she lost temporary custody of the estate when Jackson named the executors in the will of his, and the judge granted control of the estate to these executors. Katherine Jackson apparently suggesting that she has not received the documents in advance of the hearing that she wants.
She says the executors are keeping her in the dark, her request being viewed by the estate as -- quote -- "voluminous, burdensome, and invasive."
Now, the lawyer for the executives released a statement to us tonight, and it reads: "The special administrators have and will continue to provide timely information to Mrs. Jackson's counsel regarding potential business for the estate. Any inference that we have not been forthcoming in providing information to Katherine Jackson's attorney is not accurate."
That is a quote. Now, it goes on to say that Mrs. Jackson's lawyers have refused the requested terms for a confidentiality agreement, which is between a third party and the Jackson estate, and that is why they have not received this one document, which is apparently what this is all about.
Why does all of this matter, probably, a lot of folks asking. Well, as you know, hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake here, including record royalties, and Jackson's share, of course, of the well-known Beatles catalogue -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Randi Kay covering a lot -- Randi, thanks very much.
And Ted Rowlands in Las Vegas, as well, thanks.
Let's dig deeper now on all the legal angles, most notably on the criminal side of things, CNN's own legal team, Jeffrey Toobin and Lisa Bloom, joining us now.
So, Jeff, last -- yesterday, you said didn't think -- it was too early to talk about manslaughter in connection to Dr. Murray. Now they have raided his Las Vegas office and his home. What do you think?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Well, they are obviously engaged in a very serious criminal investigation of him. He is a target.
I don't know if he is a target in the legal sense, but, certainly, in the sense you or I would use, he is a target of criminal investigation. Law enforcement officials do not behave this way unless they think they are going to charge someone.
Now, whether they ultimately do and what information, what evidence they have, we don't know. The key fact here is that the affidavit in support of the search warrant, the reasons that the investigators gave to the judge to grant the search warrant, that's still under seal. So, we don't know that, but, obviously, they -- they think they have a case on Murray.
COOPER: Yes.
Lisa, why wouldn't authorities, though, have done this sooner, if they raided his office in Texas last week? If Dr. Murray had something to hide -- and I'm not saying he does -- we have no idea -- but he certainly would have had a lot of time to hide it, if he was so inclined.
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I can give you my educated hunch, Anderson, and that is that I would suspect that law enforcement has preliminary toxicology results.
And, remember, Dr. Murray voluntarily spoke to police twice at the beginning, about a month ago. So, you put together what he told them. You put together that they probably have preliminary toxicology results, because that's the way these things usually work. And now they're going to go back and see if they can connect the dots between the medications listed in those tox results and Dr. Murray.
Do they have, for example, shipping invoices, medical order forms, prescription records, or the actual medications themselves? Because, keep in mind, propofol, which is at the center of this investigation, is not a prescription. It's something that he may simply have had on hand. It may have been in Michael Jackson's rented home, and it may have been in one of the -- one of the locations that has been searched in connection with Dr. Murray...
COOPER: All right.
BLOOM: ... either his office or his clinic.
COOPER: Lisa, stick around, Jeff Bloom (sic) as well. We will have more shortly.
The -- the chat is under way at AC360.com. I have just logged on. Let us know what you think of all this. Also, 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta takes a look at that drug in question, Diprivan. What does it actually look like when someone is put under with Diprivan, put under properly? You will see for yourself in action literally second by second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. RAPHAEL GERSHON, CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY, GRADY MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: He stopped breathing. So, this is -- watch him get (INAUDIBLE) CO2, and he is not breathing anymore. And my wonderful (INAUDIBLE) is going to help him breathe.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, take a look over here. All the breathing right now is taking place with this bag and this mask.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A patient under Diprivan.
Later, authorities say they plotted violent jihad, a group of men in -- in rural North Carolina -- new information tonight on the arrests, another suspect still at large, and our own Peter Bergen on how much of a threat or how little homegrown violent jihad is becoming in the United States.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: All right, so we just learned from Randi Kaye that the coroner's report on Michael Jackson's death, which we thought was going to be released at the end of this week, including all that toxicology information, is now going to be made public next week, not this week, as we had been previously led to believe.
Now, meantime, police searching the Las Vegas home and office of Jackson's doctor, Conrad Murray, investigators, including federal drug enforcement agents -- quote -- "looking for a lot of things" -- unquote.
Back with the panel, "Digging Deeper" with Lisa Bloom and Jeffrey Toobin.
So, we know from court documents filed last week that -- that, when Murray's Houston office was raided, it was -- it was possibly for a case of manslaughter. That's what -- his own attorney used the term. It was -- it was an investigation of manslaughter.
Are you any closer to saying that this could be a man -- that this is a manslaughter case?
TOOBIN: Well, it is a manslaughter investigation. Whether they will actually bring charges and whether Murray is guilty, I'm not ready to say.COOPER: It would be a hard thing to prove, given Michael Jackson's -- you know, the -- the allegations that have already been made about his drug use for years and years and years.
TOOBIN: And it seems to be a very difficult case.
Obviously, the key fact that we don't know is, what are the results of the -- the autopsy? Because, if there is a single drug in his system and a single obvious cause of death, maybe the case gets a little easier.
But, if there are other drugs in his system, if he has a history of use of other drugs, which seems clearly to be the case, if other doctors were involved in treating him, if he had independent access to drugs without Dr. Murray, it does seem like a very hard case to make.
COOPER: And -- and, Lisa, that will be a question, whether Dr. Murray knew of any other drug use for Michael Jackson.
BLOOM: Right.
The strength of the defense case, if this does turn into a trial, would be causation. Can the prosecution prove that the medication given by Dr. Murray, if any, is what caused Jackson's death? And, if there are a lot of other medications in Jackson's system, it makes it more and more difficult for the prosecution to link this to Dr. Murray.
The strength of the prosecution's case is propofol. If that is what was in Michael Jackson's system, if Dr. Murray can be proven to have given him propofol in a home, which is clearly against all reasonable medical thinking -- it's supposed to be in a hospital -- there's supposed to be artificial ventilation -- the patient should be monitored at all times -- then he really, I think, is in some legal jeopardy, because that's just beyond the pale of anything that any medical professional would recommend.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Go ahead.
TOOBIN: Manslaughter calls -- you have to prove recklessness. And it is possible that use of propofol could be considered reckless. But, remember, this is not a crime where anybody says Murray tried to kill Michael Jackson. So...
BLOOM: Of course not.
TOOBIN: ... he could say: Look, I was doing my best. I -- I was given these sets of instructions. He had this history.
So, I think intent is...
COOPER: And I'm -- and I'm just one in a line of doctors...
BLOOM: Yes, but -- but...
COOPER: ... who had given him this over the years.
TOOBIN: That's -- that's -- that's the idea.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Possibly.
BLOOM: Yes, but that's not a defense, Anderson. It's not a defense that Michael Jackson wanted it, or even begged for it. It's not a defense that other doctors may have done it over the years.
The question is, was it medically reckless to give this medication, knowing what this doctor knew or should have known, and which apparently...
COOPER: Right.
BLOOM: ... nearly all other doctors on the planet know? What's written on the directions, you know, printed on the forms for propofol is that it has to be in a hospital, and there have to be these safety precautions...
COOPER: Right.
BLOOM: ... which, clearly, were not there in Jackson's home.
COOPER: All right.
Lisa, Jeff, thanks very much, Lisa Bloom, Jeffrey Toobin.
Up next, we're actually going to show you how Diprivan works. You will see it in use in the only safe place to use it, a hospital O.R.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten, nine, eight...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deep breath.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And that's what it looks like.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So, we have been talking about Michael Jackson's final moments and the drug Diprivan, or propofol. We have heard a lot about that over the last couple weeks. That's what Michael Jackson had apparently been using on and off for years.
It is the drug Dr. Conrad Murray allegedly administered before Jackson died, the drug that every doctor we have asked says would be incredibly dangerous to give outside of a hospital setting.
You're about to see why. We're going to show you in real time exactly how Diprivan works. And you will see for yourself all the equipment and expertise needed to make sure patients go under safely and come back up.
360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta takes us "Up Close."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: Well, Anderson, there's been a lot of discussion regarding propofol, how exactly to use it. And is it considered safe in any setting, except a hospital or a medical setting?
So, I decided pictures are worth a thousand words. I'm going to take you inside my operating room to show you firsthand what really happens.
Come on in.
So, we are here inside the operating room with Dr. Gershon. He is the chief of anesthesiology here. Propofol is a medication he uses all the time.
So, is this it right over here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
GUPTA: It looks like -- milk of amnesia, they call it.
DR. RAPHAEL GERSHON, CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY, GRADY MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: Milk of amnesia.
Vincent (ph), you OK?
We have to monitor his EKG. We have to monitor his (INAUDIBLE) CO2. We have to make sure that he is breathing. We have to see his saturation. We have to make sure he is ventilated.
GUPTA: So, these are all -- that's all typical stuff any time you use these medications?
GERSHON: That's standard of care, yes.
GUPTA: OK.
So, the propofol...
GERSHON: We're going to start infusing this.
You are going to get a little sleepy, Vincent, OK? Give me some good deep breaths.
GUPTA: Watch this go in. Take a look at his eyes, how quickly he's...
GERSHON: Deep breath, Vincent. Doing great. You may feel a little burning. OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. GERSHON: There's a reason for his heart rate increasing.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-huh.
GUPTA: So, what's...
GERSHON: See, his eyes have closed.
GUPTA: His eyes closed. And what else are you looking for?
GERSHON: Now, we look up here. He -- he stopped breathing. So, this is -- watch him get (INAUDIBLE) CO2, and he is not breathing anymore. And my wonderful (INAUDIBLE) is going to help him breathe.
GUPTA: So, take a look over here. All the breathing right now is taking place with this bag and this mask. On that medication, he wouldn't be able to breathe on his own without those things.
Well, there, you can see of the problem. Just with that much propofol there, he stopped breathing, and he's going to need a breathing tube.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Easy.
(CROSSTALK)
GUPTA: What -- what is so attractive about this medication?
GERSHON: Well (INAUDIBLE) has been in the advent in the last 10 years or so, even more, 15 years. And it's just basically a quick on, quick off.
And that people answer why people may think that this is something they could do at home, because, if it gets out of hand, it goes away quickly. The problem is, it gets out of hand, and there's nobody there to resuscitate you, then nobody could bring you back.
GUPTA: So, that was -- that was pretty quick. You just made some of the medication, and you're going to...
(CROSSTALK)
GERSHON: Five, 10 minutes.
GUPTA: Five, 10 minutes, he has gone from being completely awake to being completely asleep.
GERSHON: He's not breathing. I'm breathing for him.
GUPTA: One thing that's worth pointing out is that this is a hospital that uses this medication thousands and thousands of times a year. But they do use this medication is non-hospital settings, like outpatient clinics. The doctors here will tell you they have never heard of it being used in a home -- Anderson, back to you.
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http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-jackson-stimulant-ephedrine-caffeine-propofol/54/
Michael Jackson -- Strong Stimulant Found
Originally posted Apr 7th 2010 5:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
There may be a clear explanation as to why Michael Jackson had trouble sleeping the night before he died -- authorities found a pill bottle in the room containing tablets that would have hyped the singer up big time.
The bottle, which had no label, contained 13 tablets. Each tablet had a combination of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. The commercial sale of ephedrine -- a stimulant designed for weight loss
-- is banned in the U.S. because of reports of heart attacks, strokes and even death.
Each pill contained 25 mg of ephedrine, 200 mg of caffeine and 80 mg of aspirin. The caffeine alone in each pill is equivalent to nearly a 6-pack of Coca-Cola.
One company that manufactures the drug warns against using it past mid-afternoon, because it will cause insomnia.
According to the toxicology results, ephedrine was present in Jackson's urine
Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-j ... z0lTPA8Lzd (http://www.tmz.com/2010/04/07/michael-jackson-stimulant-ephedrine-caffeine-propofol/54/#ixzz0lTPA8Lzd)
so an unnamed bottle of a banned med disclosed by TMZ and leaked by TMZ as part of the defence?
Cant see how it could be used in the defence. It was Propofol that killed him, not epinephine.
my point i think is the the defence team are using weak arguments to inject reasonable doubt - that he used a stimulant, could not sleep, eyes were open (latoya) he self injected and caused his own death
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but on the flip side are the comments made by the family designed to get murray of the hook
1. janet - a number of interventions/he had a problem
2. latoya - his eyes where open
still think that is the most bizarre way to hoax your death, why involve the doctor in a drug related incident which would be bound to lead to autopsies , why do it in a state that does brain test [do all states do that?] why not fall down the steps have your doctor confirm death go off in private van and then off
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I don't see what's unbelievable about it. She said he had been trying to lose weight on purpose to FAIL the test he had to take. But they wouldn't let him, they passed him no matter what. He was frustrated & didn't want to do the 50 shows, he only agreed to 10. We've all heard that before. It's plausible. He probably signed up for the 10 as either a comeback or a final thing before retiring from the music biz for good. Who knows…
Ok, yes it's very plausible, and I almost sure he’d never passed the 5 hours exam we were said.
I am under the impression they would be Frank Dileo, Randy Phillips, KO, AEG, etc. ALL wanted him to do this for moneyof course, that's all they wanted. They got greedy & kept adding shows, shows Michael didn't intend on doing & according to Heismypeterpan, he kept trying to tell them, let's just do the 10 shows & release it on DVD as well & then that's it. But they kept pushing & kept sending people to make him go to rehearsals.
No doubts about it…
He was trying to get out of doing what he didn't agree to do but they were trying to force him to do. That makes sense. He knew they weren't going to listen to him, they were forceful & so he tried losing the weight & whatever else, not knowing that they would just ignore his weight loss & pass him anyways. He becomes frustrated & desperate not to do the extra shows. So he fakes his death. It seems possible.
Now, we all have seen the pics, like the one where he is doing the fitting. He is the skinniest I have ever seen him. He looks like he had lost a lot of weight since the announcement.
Here I disagree. He was already thin in the announcements, look at his legs, please.
Either, he was doing it on purpose to get out of the shows & stressing over the control these people had. Or he was just dumb & they were able to drug him & make him lose the weight. Sorry but in my opinion, Michael was never dumb, so the whole he was being drugged by the doctor they did this doesn't seem likely to me.
Thing here is that we’re talking about two different things:
You’re saying he didn’t want to do the 50 shows, just 10 so, he took the ECA tablets to loose weight and fail the tests. It just didn’t work, because they let him pass the exam no matter what so, he faked his death.
In short, you’re saying he planned in march 2009 to fake his death because he didn’t want to tour?
I’m saying he didn’t want to do the 50 shows, but since he was forced to sign in for them, he had no other choice.
He already in the O2 announcement was very thin, and to be honest he didn’t look phisically in shape at all as to confront 50 shows.
Since he had no choice more than do the shows, but he was not in shape (agreed, they’d let him pass the tests no matter what) he would need something to help him carry out with these rehearsals and shows. Let’s be realistic here, he is a 50 y/o man, almost (if not) under weight, whom had not performed in years, about to start a 50 shows tour, with more than 20 performances each...
He asked Dr Murray whom gave him the ECA tablets as stimulant. As side effect he did lose weight, and he wasn’t able to sleep... and you know the rest.
I don’t find it that senseless.
I didn’t say he is dumb, but taking ECA to lose a lot of weight is not that wise either.
However the "I don't like what these men are doing, I don't want to do these extra shows, I didn't agree to them, I don't like what they're trying to do to me, I'm afraid of them, I refuse to do the extra shows, if they won't cancel them then I'll make them", kind of scenario makes more sense to me. I truly believe & have since the beginning, that people were trying to make these shows happen, strictly for the money & only the money. They talked Michael into them & got him on board. He wanted to do them (the 10 shows) because he wanted his kids to be able to enjoy them & he missed performing. However, once he realized that these people were only after the money & they kept adding on without his consent, he had second thoughts. I'm not saying Heismypeterpan is 100% credible, but what she is saying is believable in my opinion.
Again agree.
Of course, I'm just gessing and exploring all possibles scenarios...
(Edit* Spelling)
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If Michael really has passed away reading all of that, or being reminded of it, just makes me furious and so so sad :cry: I just can't describe in words how it makes me feel...
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Michael said years ago that he doesn't eat or drink when he's on tour which in my opinion is not good for anyone, but someone who is his age and obviously being doped by his doctor not eating is not good at all. And his stupid doctor should have known this. :evil: I wonder if propofol or any of those other drugs list nausea as a side effect. If so, Michael possibly didn't have an appetite or a desire for food because he was queasy all the time. And then again if that were the case I believe that they would have been aware and fit it right into the scheme of things.
BTW when and where was that last picture taken with Michael having on the hospital cap under his hat sitting at a table or something in white. He really looks sad or scared and not well on that one. It almost brings me to tears to look at it and light man. Right in front of their faces. It's criminal really. I wish I could kick their asses myself. I really freakin hate them.
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@hesouttamylife
the pic of Michael in a robe is an old, from around the time of the trial. Not sure where he was, at the doctors?
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If he was taking everything that was on the list for this long he would have been dead a long time ago or at least in a real hospital for major problems. If he really was taking them and really died June 25th then wow. I don't know how a 50 year old could have handled all of that. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me. A big concern for me now is the tmz article that Murray says he didn't do anything wrong. Is that because he didn't do anything at all? As in he and Michael set up the place to make it look horrible and then relaxed until 12.21 June 25th for the ambulance call. Hopefully. It seems plausible.
tell me what on that list would have caused him death? Most were perscribed meds or over the counter and according to issue dates and amount remaining, MJ either took the correct doses or UNDER doeses! Please tell me what would have killed him, my husband is a pharmacist and he saw nothing alarming, other than the Propofol.
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Those replies on that Perez Hilton sight are awful about Michael. Don't think I'll be clicking on only of those links again. They HATE Michael :(
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Those replies on that Perez Hilton sight are awful about Michael. Don't think I'll be clicking on only of those links again. They HATE Michael :(
I know they're horrible but they do it to upset people so don't let it affect you. I don't think they hate Michael, they just wanna create drama.