Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Hoax Investigation => The Death Certificate, The Autopsy Report & The Will => After June 25, 2009 => The Coroner and Autopsy Report => Topic started by: QuirkyDiana on February 05, 2010, 08:01:38 PM
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This comment is taken from an article I read. It figures. The person is an anaesthetist.
If anyone wants to understand how propofol works, then here is the explanation and this is what probably happened the day MJ died.
Propofol is a drug that not only will stop your breathing if given in large amounts, it will also drop your blood pressure. Smaller amounts of propofol can be given to a patient (depending on the patient's weight) and that will only slow down one's breathing but not stop it. This is called 'conscious sedation', and that is what Conrad Murray tried to do.
Patients who are physically fit such as athletes, dancers,(such as MJ) and people who work out regularly, usually have low blood pressure ( in the low 90s for the top number) and for them it is normal. Also patients with lean body weight/ thin (such as MJ was) also have low blood pressure (in the low 90s). Also when a patient is dehydrated , their blood pressure tends to be low. According to those at the Staples Center that fateful wednesday, MJ had been rehearsing/dancing for 3 hours before the close of the night. He also skipped breakfastt the next morning, yet another reason he was probably dehydrated. Another interesting thing about propofol is that when used in combination with a benzodiazepine, the effect of propofol becomes more pronounced. In other words, a little bit goes a long way. Typically prior to giving propofol,a patient may be given 2 to 5mg of versed(a benzodiazepine ) by IV. MJ got 18mg of benzodiazepines per is attorney's and his own admission to police!
It is also important to note that MJ did not have any heart disease, per the autopsy. His blood pressure though was almost certainly low and given the fact that the effect of propofol is pronounced in the presence of benzodiazepines,means that MJ ,in addition to his breathing being cut off, his blood pressure also bottomed out. But because there wasn't any proper monitoring nor was the doctor properly trained in the use of propofol, MJ died. Dr. Conrad Murray did not know the nuances that one learns when you are familiar with using propofol on a daily basis, in the proper setting; that is why he now has a dead patient.
Now when it comes to resuscitating a patient, EMS worked on him for 42 minutes without much success. That is a bit unusual in a patient with a healthy,strong heart. Infact those are the patients we prefer to resuscutate, the success rate is so high. It is easier to get a patient back from the brink of death if the patient has a healthy heart unless if the patient has been down for a LONG,LONG time. Except in cases of hypothermia, it is near impossible to get a patient back if he has been down for a long time, it wouldn't matter how strong the heart is! That is why after working on MJ for an addditional hour at UCLA they still couldn't revive him.
My colleagues had long suspected that Dr. Murray either fell asleep or walked away from MJ at some point. It did not suprise us when it was later revealed that he had made phone calls for 47 minutes before notifying anyone,(the first to hear there was something wrong was Kai chase, the chef) to call 911. He probably walked away to another part of the house to make phone calls while MJ slept; he probably didn't want disturb him.
All the drugs found in MJ's system were administered by conrad murray. Although MJ had a history of addiction to narcotics, none of that was found in his system. It is physically near impossible for one to administer drugs to themselves through a properly placed iv. MJ had a properly placed iv, that is why his death has been ruled a homicide.
I strongly believe that if Conrad Murray's 'wanton medical negligence' didn't kill Mj here in the US, it would have happened in London. He didn't know what he was doing, he was in way over his head and he did not have proper monitoring. He is not an addiction specialist either. For the record, oxygen saturation monitor is not the only one that is required to monitor a patient in a setting such as this. You also need blood pressure and heart rate monitors, at the very minimum.
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Thank you for the article. The anesthesologist appears to know what he/she is talking about. Although it is hard (if Michael died) to hear what he went through, I'm glad to know more about it and to hear a professional coming out against Murray instead of Michael. :(
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:x Murray...
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
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When i go through the times when i think MJ really is dead, and i think about all of this... it makes me so sad and also very angry.
It makes no sense... and Dr Murray makes no sense.
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.
When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.
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Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol.
Sorry, I´m not in the USA. Where can I find a source that confirms the fact that he admitted that?
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.
When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.
I thought CNN had said last week that the autopsy results were fake.... or wait a minute, or was it that there is still no toxicolagy report. There's a thread on it somewhere in the forum. :?
I think at this point we really need to rely a little less or maybe not at all on what has been said through the media in any way,type or form. We are being brain washed to see things the way they want us to. We need to take a step back IMO and ask ourselves the questions we want answered and how we can answer them without relying entirely on the media. I realize this could be a difficult thing to do but I think it's worth a try.
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.
When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.
I thought CNN had said last week that the autopsy results were fake.... or wait a minute, or was it that there is still no toxicolagy report. There's a thread on it somewhere in the forum. :?
Autopsy reports ARE fake... ive been saying this since day one and no one listens to little old me.
Remember when they leaked the autopsy reports for Brittany Murphy? The Coroner IMMEDIATELY issued a statement saying he was launching an investigation into how the info got leaked.
In MJs case.. the Coroner denied these (two) autopsy claims and never admitted that they were real or that he was launching an investigation into the leak.... he didnt because they were FALSE.
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Murray admitted in the affidavit that he gave MJ 25mg propofol. Whether he gave more than that, who knows. Maybe the autopsy report will contradict this.
When there is a lack of information (as there currently is) it is easy to find suspicion in everything. But why would an affidavit be false, for example? When Murray walks to court on Monday, will everyone say that has been staged too? Where do you end the disbelief? Some people are going to hit the ground with a hard bump soon - that's what i think. Has anyone thought how many people would have to be involved if this was a hoax? Why would MJ deceive and excite his fans into thinking they were getting a concert, and then end it with a very convincing devastating death? It's getting silly. If there is anything unusual, it's either because people really are strange or corrupt things are really going on. Everything that has happened is possible. People can still walk away free from crimes if the police do not do their job meticulously, if lawyers present cases badly - or if others are just clever, and if there is a genuine lack of evidence. Nothing is perfect, it may take a death like this for people/law to learn lessons and i believe that is what is happening here.
I thought CNN had said last week that the autopsy results were fake.... or wait a minute, or was it that there is still no toxicolagy report. There's a thread on it somewhere in the forum. :?
Autopsy reports ARE fake... ive been saying this since day one and no one listens to little old me.
Remember when they leaked the autopsy reports for Brittany Murphy? The Coroner IMMEDIATELY issued a statement saying he was launching an investigation into how the info got leaked.
In MJs case.. the Coroner denied these (two) autopsy claims and never admitted that they were real or that he was launching an investigation into the leak.... he didnt because they were FALSE.
Thank your for clearing it up for me. :) Right now we really have a big pile of things that have been said but I think we need to go through the pile and throw out once and for all what is false in that pile. Also maybe make 2 piles, 1 for true beyond the shadow of a doubt info and 1 for the shaddy stuff we cant prove to be false or true and is odd. It would help us lots to do so I am sure.
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Here is the affidavit. It's on the 3rd page.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... kson1.html (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson1.html)
These 2 articles give good summaries of the affidavit.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/ ... 3914.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/25/entertainment/michaeljackson/main5263914.shtml)
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -show.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/michael-jackson-died-of-lethal-levels-of-propofol-court-documents-show.html)
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With the autopsy report....there have been a lot of 'facts' released in the media. The coroner has always said they will release the full report in due course, and that the facts come from them and nobody else. This does not somehow mean that there was no autopsy. They confirmed the completion of the autopsy in front of cameras, they just haven't released the full details yet.
Someone apparently contacted the coroner about this and the coroner said, 'The body was that of Michael Jackson. And by the way, we have released nothing officially, so everything out there in the blogosphere is conjecture or otherwise unsubstantiated.'
LAPD are in possession of all the facts on the autopsy. Some of this info can be gleaned in the affidavit. LAPD are holding back the autopsy until they complete investigations. So when people say that the autopsy reports are fake - yes, the info may be false reporting, but the autopsy itself is not fake.
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With the autopsy report....there have been a lot of 'facts' released in the media. The coroner has always said they will release the full report in due course, and that the facts come from them and nobody else. This does not somehow mean that there was no autopsy. They confirmed the completion of the autopsy in front of cameras, they just haven't released the full details yet.
Someone apparently contacted the coroner about this and the coroner said, 'The body was that of Michael Jackson. And by the way, we have released nothing officially, so everything out there in the blogosphere is conjecture or otherwise unsubstantiated.'
LAPD are in possession of all the facts on the autopsy. Some of this info can be gleaned in the affidavit. LAPD are holding back the autopsy until they complete investigations. So when people say that the autopsy reports are fake - yes, the info may be false reporting, but the autopsy itself is not fake.
So bottom line, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe Michael is dead. Correct?
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Here is the affidavit. It's on the 3rd page.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... kson1.html (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0824091jackson1.html)
These 2 articles give good summaries of the affidavit.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/ ... 3914.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/25/entertainment/michaeljackson/main5263914.shtml)
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... -show.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/michael-jackson-died-of-lethal-levels-of-propofol-court-documents-show.html)
Thank you very much for the sources.
I´ll take my time to read them... this is all going so fast now!
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So bottom line, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe Michael is dead. Correct?
I don't think it's rational to dismiss everything as fake (hoax), but there are lots of things that can be false. I believe that the affidavit was not faked and i have no reason to believe that the autopsy announcement made to media by the coroner's office was fake. These 2 things alone for me are huge hurdles for any hoax theory. Ofcourse, there have been many strange things since MJ's death and many unanswered questions, but i think the confusion, contradiction and mystery has been largely fuelled by a complete lack of information from the LAPD and Coroner. They chose to keep some details private, and many witnesses will obviously not want to speak in public before a trial commences. There are so many medical staff who will give evidence who have not yet spoken. I think people have to be sensible about this.
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...i have no reason to believe that the autopsy announcement made to media by the coroner's office was fake.
Which one of them, and we have a new one... that´s the point.
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Yes propofol kills. Any anesthetic can kill. That's one of the reasons surgery is risky. Some vets don't even want to use it unless absolutely necessary - like for cleaning teeth really well. And people die from it. You didn't hear about it before. Michael made it famous. People in the medical profession that have easy access to it take - they shoot up and die. The person who wrote the article above is correct, accurate and anyone that understands blood pressure, meds and all the conditions mentioned such as dehydration will tell you the same thing. Not only did Dr. Murray not have an ounce of respect for Michael he seems not to regard life. He's not thinking clearly. Even if Michael twisted his arm to give him the propofol, Dr. Murray should have at the very least had equipment. The fact that Dr. Murray doesn't have sense enough to wear a condom tells me he's not thinking clearly. I mean..how many children to you have to sire before you figure out you can't swing it? I'll give him this - maybe the condoms were faulty - but all of them?
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So bottom line, correct me if I'm wrong, is that you believe Michael is dead. Correct?
I don't think it's rational to dismiss everything as fake (hoax), but there are lots of things that can be false. I believe that the affidavit was not faked and i have no reason to believe that the autopsy announcement made to media by the coroner's office was fake. These 2 things alone for me are huge hurdles for any hoax theory. Ofcourse, there have been many strange things since MJ's death and many unanswered questions, but i think the confusion, contradiction and mystery has been largely fuelled by a complete lack of information from the LAPD and Coroner. They chose to keep some details private, and many witnesses will obviously not want to speak in public before a trial commences. There are so many medical staff who will give evidence who have not yet spoken. I think people have to be sensible about this.
:))
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Yes propofol kills. Any anesthetic can kill. That's one of the reasons surgery is risky. Some vets don't even want to use it unless absolutely necessary - like for cleaning teeth really well. And people die from it. You didn't hear about it before. Michael made it famous. People in the medical profession that have easy access to it take - they shoot up and die.
Yes, that´s pretty obvious. I was just implying that this only proves preciselly JUST that propofol kills, not that Mike "died" from that, nor even that he took that.
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Yes, that´s pretty obvious. I was just implying that this only proves preciselly JUST that propofol kills, not that Mike "died" from that, nor even that he took that.
So what would you class as valid proof that MJ took propofol and died from it? I just wanted to know what concrete evidence is there that every official document that has been released and confirmed by the coroner's office has been purposely falsified.
What sort of evidence (that has not already been released) will convince you that this is what happened. I mean, you are questioning the validity and testimony of a large and diverse group of professional people who currently work in their said professions, without identifying what exactly is untrue and backing that up with solid proof. I'm not saying don't have an enquiring mind, just that you can't say something is false without proof that something is wrong with it.
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No, no QuirkyDiana, sorry, here we´re having crossed conversations. Here I´m trying to say to simplyme that, what I meant up there is that, it just proved propofol kills, and that it´s well known by everyone that anesthetic can kill.
After I said that, you posted the cbs source, which I think is something more "serious", but still proves nothing, is not that the main stream is gospell, less cbs-big-eye as I see it.
It´s not that I don´t believe MJ is dead (nor alive) till I see it with my own eyes, but for me to believe so, things must add up rather more than they do by now. And there are facts that could make me believe he is dead, such as Murray in jail for instance.
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Pardon me, i hadn't realised that you made the initial comment before the official autopsy/toxicology reports were out. However, now that they are out, would you say that the evidence in there is valid/invalid? If it is invalid, how so?
Murray could still win the case if his lawyers do not present the incriminating evidence properly, or if there is not enough evidence to convict him of said charge. Or if the police contaminated evidence. Does not mean he did not do it, particularly as he admitted to being there and administering. In fact, i am so interested in what is going to be his defence now that he pleaded not guilty. There is so much evidence against him involving negligence that I don't see how he can form a defence, but he obviously thinks he can. An eye-opener.
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wasnt mike introduced to the drug before, he would as i understand it look for doctors to provide the drug
klein said it was his chosen drug or something like it -
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304977,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304977,00.html)
Michael Jackson Admits Drug Use in Testimony
Thursday, October 25, 2007
By Roger Friedman
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AP
Michael Jackson
Michael Jackson Admits Drug Use in Testimony | Before the Academy Knows You Want an Oscar | Queen Latifah Swings and Sings | Pellicano Lawyer: Dismiss Case, Blame FBI
Michael Jackson Admits Drug Use in Testimony
How bad is, or was, Michael Jackson's addiction to prescription medication?
Well, in a deposition Jackson gave last summer, the beleaguered pop star 'fessed up for once about where his head's been at when he signs documents.
The testimony Jackson gave on July 25, 2007, had to do with agreements he signed with former manager Dieter Wiesner.
As usual, Jackson claimed to have forgotten putting his signature on the dotted line.
In the deposition, taken in London, an attorney for Wiesner asks Jackson the key question.
This is what it looks like in the actual transcript, obtained exclusively by this column:
Q Were you impaired by the taking of prescription medications or something else at the time you signed these two documents?
A I could have been.
Q Is that best of recollection, that you signed these while impaired, not knowing what they meant?
A I could maybe say so, but I'm not — I don't remember them.
It's not like Jackson misunderstood the questioning, either. In the same line of examination, the attorney for Wiesner managed to get this in as well:
Q How long in 2003 were you impaired because of the taking of prescription medication?
A I don't know.
Q Was it most of 2003?
A I'm not sure.
Q Did Dr. Farshchian prescribe that medication for you?
A No, it wasn't Farshchian. I think it was a local.
And then there's also this exchange:
Q As of March 31, 2003, were you still impaired because of the taking of prescription medication?
A I could have been.
Q During the period of time you were impaired by the taking of prescription medication, was this an impairment that lasted like all your waking hours, or did it come and go?
A It comes and goes, not all of the waking hours, of course not. Yes.
Q Now, during the period of time you were taking this medication when you weren't impaired, did you ever tell one of your advisors that you were [concerned] about your impairment and they better watch what you were signing during this period of time?
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http://current.com/items/90290431_micha ... him-in.htm (http://current.com/items/90290431_michael-jacksons-struggle-with-pain-suspicion-demerol-did-him-in.htm)
Jackson was linked to Demerol as far back as 1993, when concert promoters sued him, claiming an addiction to the painkiller caused him to cancel his "Dangerous" tour.
A former financial adviser once claimed the singer went through detox for Demerol in South Korea in 1999, and the drug was among items seized from Jackson
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[youtube:16tpeg5p]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Aq2Zd9A77Q[/youtube:16tpeg5p]
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klien said mike was a drug addict
[YouTube]http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/posting.php?mode=edit&f=40&p=111230[/YouTube]
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Pardon me, i hadn't realised that you made the initial comment before the official autopsy/toxicology reports were out. However, now that they are out, would you say that the evidence in there is valid/invalid? If it is invalid, how so?
Murray could still win the case if his lawyers do not present the incriminating evidence properly, or if there is not enough evidence to convict him of said charge. Or if the police contaminated evidence. Does not mean he did not do it, particularly as he admitted to being there and administering. In fact, i am so interested in what is going to be his defence now that he pleaded not guilty. There is so much evidence against him involving negligence that I don't see how he can form a defence, but he obviously thinks he can. An eye-opener.
But the thing is, correct me if I´m wrong, that we don´t KNOW if any real official autopsy/toxicology reports are out at all. The same for CM admitting anything, no direct source, just news agencies stating so. About him being negligent, I cannot see any proof, maybe signs, but not evidences.
QuirkyDiana, I love to share our opinions, but yours and mine are so far by now. I mean, I still don´t discard Murray being an actor (this is an HOAX site), and I think mass media sources usually lie, or mislead, so understand that to my point of view I can´t see those evidences, which is not the same that I deny him being dead, killed or murdered.
Time will say, and of course this trial is very important for that.
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klien saw mike 3 days before he died(?) on 22/06/09
[YouTube]http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/posting.php?mode=reply&f=40&t=4933[/YouTube]
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@the arabian nights, wrong link, excuse me...
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This article you posted gives one possibility the anesthesiologist could think of. That a patient with a strong heart like Michael would have to be down for a long time for resuscitation not to be able to be succesfull anymore. So EITHER he had a high chance of success of being revived (!) OR he was down for a long time as the anesthesiologist says.
This is what has been bothering me too, however I do not believe he was already dead in the ambulance. Why? Because the ambulance picture does not seem fake to me. On the picture he is intubated with an ETT, meaning rigor mortis had not set in yet. Rigor mortis starts to set in about 3 hours after death, the jaw will become stiff when that happens so it will be very difficult to intubate. Another thing, there is a huge vein visible on his forehead. That implies bloodpressure is still present to "pump up" that vein.
Meaning he arrived at UCLA with high chances of getting resuscitated. On top of that, UCLA is specialised in resuscitation. So if there is any place where they could have resuscitated Michael, it would have been there. This is the other explanation than which the anesthesiologist of the article gives: they DID manage to resuscitate him, as it IS unlikely they would not have succeeded reviving him.
If they DID manage to revive him, it would turn into a murder attempt case, a conspiracy as they had predicted for such a long time. From there on it would be speculating what happened. They could have given him official protection, for instance within a witness protection program (WPP), with a new identity. In that case, it is not custom that many people know about it but only as few as possible, a handful of people, will be involved. That would mean only a very few familymembers and/or inner circle ones and a few officals; NOT the entire coroners office, NOT the entire LAPD department, NOT the entire UCLA, NOT all Michaels friends, NOT all of AEG or NOT all of SONY, NOT whole of Hollywood.
From there on, there would still be an investigation into an attempted homocide/murder case, which is what has been happening, and prosecution. Not for murder, but attempted murder.
But as @QuirckyDiana mentioned above, there are some hurdles to this. One is the autopsy report. If he went into a WPP and received a new identity, would they go so far as to forge an autopsy report? They could use his medical files to create a forged AR. If they tested in the hospital if he was poisoned, they could also use the labresults to create it. However the AR is very detailed, many things that simply can not be done on a life body. Would they go that far as to forge an AR for a WPP?
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I´m trying to read the affidavit now again.
http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/0824_murray_search_warrant_2.pdf
It´s really hard to examine to me, as I´m not a lawyer, and I´m not from the states.
Even I don´t understand quite well who is this affidavit from or even if I understood well what´s an affidavit there.
I though we we talking about a Murray´s sworn statement, but I see it´s something like an agent who swears that other agent swears that Murray said to him. Mmm.
On the other hand, I miss something of continuity in the shape of this document, headers lacking, page numbering disorder... just without getting into the content itself. As for instance, I still don´t understand why a cardiologist would perform a CPR in a person which is not breathing, is not conscious, but has low pulse, low but has.
Isn´t it counterproductive in a person with pulse?
Someone knows this for shure here, please?
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@Raven.. my thoughts now on this are:
The ambulance picture is a fake. It was photoshopped because they didnt get a clean shot, so they made one up for money.
I think Michael was down for a long time. Thats why he wasnt revivable, He had a healthy heart so it stands to reason if CPR was applied quickly and properly - he would have been saved.
I know this because i have had someone have a heart attack in front of me. Ive seen what happens and what the paramedics do. I know there is only 3 minutes from when someone stops breathing before it becomes near impossible to bring them back.
He was down a long time and CPR was not administered. Murray was either not there.. or he waited until he knew MJ was gone.
I think Murray wasnt there myself. He found MJ too late.
Im beginning to get a bit of peace in my heart because i am understanding more of what is going on.
A small part of me believes in the hoax... a larger part of me now believes Michael died and people are covering their tracks.
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@Raven.. my thoughts now on this are:
The ambulance picture is a fake. It was photoshopped because they didnt get a clean shot, so they made one up for money.
I think Michael was down for a long time. Thats why he wasnt revivable, He had a healthy heart so it stands to reason if CPR was applied quickly and properly - he would have been saved.
I know this because i have had someone have a heart attack in front of me. Ive seen what happens and what the paramedics do. I know there is only 3 minutes from when someone stops breathing before it becomes near impossible to bring them back.
He was down a long time and CPR was not administered. Murray was either not there.. or he waited until he knew MJ was gone.
I think Murray wasnt there myself. He found MJ too late.
Im beginning to get a bit of peace in my heart because i am understanding more of what is going on.
A small part of me believes in the hoax... a larger part of me now believes Michael died and people are covering their tracks.
Oh, please don't say that! The thing is I'm probably feeling the same way as you but I'm scared that I won't admit it to myself... :? I want it so much to be a hoax but of course, I don't let it overshadow my judgement. I know I have to stay objective and the AR has been a very difficult element for me in all of this, it just seems like so much hassle to go through if it was indeed a hoax.
What makes me abit confused is that Michael would ask Murray (if we were to believe the reports) for propofol probably knowing Murray's not an expert in that field but instead he's a cardiologist. We've also heard that Michael had been given propofol (assuming that this is true) before e.g. while touring, which would probably mean that he knew what kind of monitoring equipment would be needed for it to be safe to use yet such equipment was not found. As we've discussed on this thread, it seemed like Michael had a strong healthy heart so why would he go and hire a cardiologist?! I'm not trying to state what Michael would or would not do but do these things not seem odd to you? Would Michael be so careless/reckless about his life, especially when he has 3 young kids? This will sound horrible but I personally believe that if Michael hadn't been someone who's very strong and concerned about his safety he would have been gone way sooner than 2009... But I'm just speculating and perhaps Michael was very depressed during these later years and depression knows no logic.
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cm was known to the family - though they are silent on this, and i have read that he assisted mike's children and was also working for mike for 3 years, but i dont know about that - i mean did he go to dubai or ireland (possibly not)
he was not hired i think because of his specialism but because he was known and trusted
but mike was supposed to have questioned this with Klein
@ dancingthdream - i have read that cm had actually left the building
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@dancing the dream what about the other hoax points - the helipoter, this has not been debunked yet - this one is fundamental to me - unless it was a double - this must be mike (?) moving
are you beginning to think that there was a murder plot or incompetence?
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cm was known to the family - though they are silent on this, and i have read that he assisted mike's children and was also working for mike for 3 years, but i dont know about that - i mean did he go to dubai or ireland (possibly not)
he was not hired i think because of his specialism but because he was known and trusted
but mike was supposed to have questioned this with Klein
@ dancingthdream - i have read that cm had actually left the building
And we've also been told Murray was supposed to go with Michael to London even though he hasn't got a licence to practice there which also seems very strange... Does anyone know the process of getting a medical licence in the UK, is it difficult (assuming you're doctor that is)? I too believe (as Dancingthedream) the most simple answer to all of this might be that Murray accidentally killed Michael and now he's trying to cover his tracks, even though it pains me immensly to actually say it/write it :cry: I'm not sure what to think about TINI and theories about AEG and SONY involvement... I mean that Samantha girl says Michael wasn't looking healthy and that he spoke to them about his concerns. I still can't understand why Michael would go and tell fans that :? I've also been in contact with fans, that I don't believe are "followers" of TINI and neither know about hoax theories, who met Michael just days before his "death" and they say he looked healthy and seemed excited and happy... Don't know what to believe it's all doing my head in but of course it could also be a matter of difference in perception. I still haven't made up my mind of what to believe, too difficult with so many unanswered questions. All I know is that I MISS YOU AND LOVE YOU MICHAEL and this state of confusion is exhausting my mind and my heart :(
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sweet heart do your home work - dont get confused - delay that thought til after your exams
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sweet heart do your home work - dont get confused - delay that thought til after your exams
HAHAH! You're too sweet and boy are you right! Look here I am again, my 3rd time today! Wish I wasn't such an obsessive person... :oops:
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thats okay but say 15minutes for every hour so 45mins on homework /revision - ok
just worried about you
this is your time - babe
your time
make the most of it - you are the future :D
i will stop the lectures now
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How Much Propofol was Jackson Given:
I just saw an interview posted on CNN. It was with an anesthesiologist and he claims (no surprise) that the amount of propofol in the body's system would have had negative results within 10 seconds after being administered refuting the statements that Dr Murray stayed there right after giving the drug. He also said that it's not likely that Dr Murray gave the propofol by IV - if he gave him the amount he claims. Here's the link to CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/ ... =allsearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/04/02/jackson.propofol.amount.cnn?iref=allsearch)
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How Much Propofol was Jackson Given:
I just saw an interview posted on CNN. It was with an anesthesiologist and he claims (no surprise) that the amount of propofol in the body's system would have had negative results within 10 seconds after being administered refuting the statements that Dr Murray stayed there right after giving the drug. He also said that it's not likely that Dr Murray gave the propofol by IV - if he gave him the amount he claims. Here's the link to CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/ ... =allsearch (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/04/02/jackson.propofol.amount.cnn?iref=allsearch)
As far as the amount of propofol given - that's debatable.
Yesterday on TMZ live (either during or after the court hearing) - Harvey was taking questions and one thing he said was that the prosecution DOES NOT believe Murray's account on how much propofol was given.
There have been other reports posted on here that the amount that was supposed to have been given would barely put a puppy to sleep.
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Jackson was in asystole the whole time with paramedics. There are 2 non-shockable rhythms that do not respond to defibrillation with someone in cardiac arrest. They are asystole and pulseless electrical activity. Thet are both mentioned in MJ's case. MJ was in asystole for 30 mins approx while the paramedics attended at the house. They arrived at the hospital and his condition was unchanged (at 13.13 they arrived).
Prognosis - The principal determining factor is the initially documented rhythm. People with ventricular fibrillation or pulseless ventricular tachycardia have 10-15 times greater chance of surviving than those suffering from pulseless electrical activity or asystole.
The blood pressure issue is also very important. MJ had no blood pressure the whole time paramedics treated him - 30 mins. Epinephrine is a vasoconstrictor that would have helped constrict the vessels to create some pressure within his body. Failing to maintain blood pressure can result in inadequate blood flow to the brain.
Arrested blood circulation prevents delivery of oxygen to the body. Lack of oxygen to the brain causes loss of consciousness, which then results in abnormal or absent breathing. Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
At the hospital at 13.22, with their superior equipment, they got a rhythm. But MJ never regained a spontaneous pulse. Murray never told anyone MJ had propofol in his system.
Cardiac arrest is a medical emergency that, in certain situations is potentially reversible if treated early. When unexpected cardiac arrest leads to death this is called sudden cardiac death (SCD). The treatment for cardiac arrest is cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) to provide circulatory support, followed by defibrillation if a shockable rhythm is present. If a shockable rhythm is not present after CPR and other interventions, clinical death is inevitable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest)
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/76 ... -bars.html (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/761057/Damning-ambulance-report-that-could-put-stars-medic-behind-bars.html)
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/76 ... apsed.html (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/765565/Docs-got-brief-heartbeat-1hr-after-superstar-collapsed.html)
http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u10/u1006_02.htm (http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u10/u1006_02.htm) (check out pages 3 and 4 also)
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Regarding the protruding vein in the forehead - this is not indicative of blood pressure. Blood pressure is the arterial pressure.
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just re-read the first post - why have we not heard more from anesthesiologists?
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just re-read the first post - why have we not heard more from anesthesiologists?
I'm in the UK, and at the time they knew about propofol, anaesthetists were all over the news reports here. In the US i believe the same was happening. It's all on youtube. But propofol is old news. When the trial gets going, you will hear it all again. I don't think anaesthetists would comment on the news unless they were asked. It is such a bizarre thing to use propofol at home, why would any doctor comment further? There is not much to discuss. However, i'm sure the prosecution have their medical witnesses all lined up.
Here is something else;
In a hospital or operating room, a Propofol overdose is treated by immediately ceasing the drug's infusion, then beginning respiratory and cardiac support while other drugs are administered to increase blood pressure, helping re-perfuse tissues with blood and oxygen until the drug is eliminated by the body and the patient regains consciousness. The time required to clear Propofol depends mainly on the amount of Propofol given and over what period of time as well as the ability of the patient's liver and kidneys to metabolize and eliminate the drug.
By the way, did you know that MJ had uneven levels of propofol in his body?
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Ok so propofol can kill.
But is there any proof that Mike took that...? 8-)
Yes propofol kills. Any anesthetic can kill. That's one of the reasons surgery is risky. Some vets don't even want to use it unless absolutely necessary - like for cleaning teeth really well. And people die from it. You didn't hear about it before. Michael made it famous. People in the medical profession that have easy access to it take - they shoot up and die.
Yes, that´s pretty obvious. I was just implying that this only proves preciselly JUST that propofol kills, not that Mike "died" from that, nor even that he took that.
EXACTLY!!! You hit the nail on the head
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just re-read the first post - why have we not heard more from anesthesiologists?
I'm in the UK, and at the time they knew about propofol, anaesthetists were all over the news reports here. In the US i believe the same was happening. It's all on youtube. But propofol is old news. When the trial gets going, you will hear it all again. I don't think anaesthetists would comment on the news unless they were asked. It is such a bizarre thing to use propofol at home, why would any doctor comment further? There is not much to discuss. However, i'm sure the prosecution have their medical witnesses all lined up.
Here is something else;
In a hospital or operating room, a Propofol overdose is treated by immediately ceasing the drug's infusion, then beginning respiratory and cardiac support while other drugs are administered to increase blood pressure, helping re-perfuse tissues with blood and oxygen until the drug is eliminated by the body and the patient regains consciousness. The time required to clear Propofol depends mainly on the amount of Propofol given and over what period of time as well as the ability of the patient's liver and kidneys to metabolize and eliminate the drug.
By the way, did you know that MJ had uneven levels of propofol in his body?
:? What does that mean uneven levels of propofol in the body? How is that possible if even possible?
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This link posted on the previous forum, I think it is good to read again, this is the link;
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/08/michael.html (http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/08/michael.html)
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This link posted on the previous forum, I think it is good to read again, this is the link;
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/08/michael.html (http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/08/michael.html)
OK I'm going to reply to that, just not at this minute. There are several things wrong with that article and issues that the article fails to address.
Yes, there were uneven levels of propofol in his body according to Harvey Levin - who said that his source was the coroner. Apparently the side of the body that was used for the propofol IV has LESS than the other side. Much can be read into that. Don't forget, when paramedics arrived there was no pulse, so no circulation. It appears that Murray attached a saline drip through the same point the propofol was administered before paramedics got there. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the uneven levels of propofol. You would think the drip would have to have been in for some time to have altered any concentrations in the blood stream.
I think some revelations are on the way. I get a feeling the Jackson's have nailed their medical evidence.
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I did not read the report (I question the credibility of it) but I am wondering if they are implying a difference in propofol levels in venous blood compared to arterial blood and various body tissues (muscle, brain, adipose tissue)? My logic tells me there would naturally be a difference in all due to the rate of uptake per tissue and the metabolism of it.
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I did not read the report (I question the credibility of it) but I am wondering if they are implying a difference in propofol levels in venous blood compared to arterial blood and various body tissues (muscle, brain, adipose tissue)? My logic tells me there would naturally be a difference in all due to the rate of uptake per tissue and the metabolism of it.
Yes they did.
The samples were sent to toxicology. Different levels of Propofol were found in all of them.
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The inference was not that the different levels were found in the different organs.....you would expect that anyway. The inference was that one side of the body had a build-up compared to the other side. There is so much medical evidence we have not seen yet.
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A snippet of propofol science - http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8199950 (http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8199950)