Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Hoax Investigation => General Hoax Investigation => Revisiting Old Stuff => Topic started by: curls on July 23, 2014, 03:01:45 PM
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Ok guys, several of you seemed to like the idea of an open thread like this, to share and chew over whatever takes your fancy. Let's just keep it friendly and respectful and please bear in mind Souza's rules about who/what we can discuss.
So ... I'll kick things off.
Prompted by Do's comments I think we should be willing to view scenarios that may not sit easily with our own personal long held hoax beliefs.
So, I'd like to discuss Murray. He has always been pivotal to my belief in the hoax. I could be pushed into going along with the idea that MJ ended up dependent on drugs and even that he'd resorted to anaesthesia to get some semblance of sleep. I could even accept a horrible accident while his doctor was nearby ... but this doctor - Dr Conrad Murray??
Dr Conrad Murray, who has a non-existent or at best sketchy past (I need to refresh my memory on this again). Conrad Murray who shares his name with an episode of 'The Court of Last Resort'. An apparently intelligent doctor who writes strange letters to patients, makes documentaries and videos for the world, speaks to tabloids, does interviews and sings on TV, yet doesn't speak up for himself in court. And he can walk around being photographed by NPG while we never hear of, or see, angry fans, or anyone for that matter, challenging him or even recognising him. A man who sounds like MJ (in what he talks about, not his voice!). I cannot believe this man is a doctor, hell ... I can barely believe he exists at all! That's the bottom line.
So, the question I have to ask myself is, do all these things = death hoax, or is there another explanation for his 'strangeness'? Is it possible he's just a crazy doctor trying any way he can to cover his ass?
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Thank you Curls,
Yeah Conrad sure is a very strange caracther,is it not said that MJ insisted Conrad to be his Doctor or am confused because of the triall Katherine vs AEG and it was AEG who just said that MJ wanted him? To make their story plausible?
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I have the same feelings about Murray.
Can we try to find more about him,or did we already tried it all?
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@Shy, yeah, and wasn't it also reported that MJ made a point of saying he trusted Murray with his life?
@Mattie, I agree, I'd find it useful to do a bit more digging/refresh my memory. Wasn't there something about his car (?) being owned by his sister who owned a circus company? Or did I just dream that up?!
Need sleep now, hope to find some time to delve a bit tomorrow.
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Sometimes I think that Murray is a metaphor, A CLUE of Michael about himself :a man who was wrongfully convicted ( Michael is alive, so Murray is innocent and Michael has always suffered for the injustice, the lies and the rumors about him) . But a man who has returned to being free ( and Michael finally now is so). :icon_rolleyes:
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hummm murray is physically free yes but is still trapped by his circumstances . still struggling to prove his innocence so that he can go back to the thing that is his passion his way of being productive.
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I do believe you can find the info you were talking about to mattie in this following blog:
http://dianajeann.blogspot.nl/2010/01/drconrad-murray-revealed.html
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^^^ That's a great start Shy, thanks!
And there are loads of threads here for me to check out: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/board,28.0.html
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I came across this tonight and it lists legal troubles that our Dr Murray went through. I was thinking if we could check the court cases that this book listed, we may be able to at least establish if the Dr is a doctor.
Murray had first come to the attention of Nevada authorities back in 2002, when
a child support case out of California’s Santa Clara County that followed the doctor
through three states finally caught up with him in Las Vegas. By spring 2009,
when he received the call inviting him to work as Michael Jackson’s physician,
Murray was under siege from a phalanx of creditors. Capital One bank had won a
default judgment against Murray in October 2008, and in March 2009, HICA
Education Loan Corporation was awarded a $71,332 judgment against the doctor
for his failing to repay student loans that dated back to his days in Nashville.
Separate lawsuits filed by Citicorp Vendor Finance and Popular Leasing USA had
ended with judgments against Murray totaling $363,722, and the doctor was still
facing court claims lodged in Las Vegas by Digirad Imaging Solutions and
Siemans Financial Services that demanded another $366,541 for unpaid debts
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I've spent far too long reading/watching stuff about Murray today!
Wondering how, and if, I go about checking the validity or otherwise of the investigation done years ago regarding his alternative background/name/if he's a doctor etc, without becoming obsessed (again!)! Or is it simple and I need go no further than this article for the truth about his background:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1248329/Michael-Jackson-death-Dr-Conrad-Murray-quack-accused-killing-star.html#ixzz0eb0myas8
The debts you mentioned RK, are included in this article.
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This is an excerpt from http://www.biography.com/people/conrad-murray-481814
Early Life and Medical Training
Conrad Robert Murray was born on February 19, 1953, in St. Andrews, Grenada. The man who would become embroiled in the controversy surrounding the death of the "King of Pop" in June 2009 did not come from money. With his mother Milta spending most of her time in Trinidad and Tobago in search of better paying work, Murray lived with his maternal grandparents, two Grenadian farmers. His fractured family life was compounded by the total absence of his father, Rawle Andrews, a Houston area physician who, up until his death in 2001, focused his career on offering medical services to the poor. Conrad didn't meet his dad until he was 25.
At the age of seven, Murray relocated to Trinidad and Tobago to live with his mother, where he became a citizen and finished high school. Like Milta, Murray was determined to make a better life for himself, demonstrating at an early age a propensity to work hard. After high school he volunteered as an elementary school teacher in Trinidad, an experience he followed with work as a customs clerk and an insurance underwriter in order to pay for his college education. Murray also wasn't afraid to take advantage of an opportunity. At the age of 19 he bought his first house, then later sold it for a decent profit to support his university tuition in the United States.
In 1980, two years after first visiting Houston and getting a chance to introduce himself to his father, Conrad Murray returned to Texas to enroll at Texas Southern University, where in just three years he graduated magna cum laude with a degree in pre-medicine and biological sciences. From there, Murray followed in his father's footsteps and attended the primarily African-American Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee.
Upon graduating Maharre, Murray enrolled for additional training at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and then completed his residency at Loma Linda University Medical Center in California. Other training stints followed; he studied at the University of Arizona on a Cardiology Fellowship, and landed back in California, where he eventually worked as the associate director for the interventional cardiology fellowship-training program at Sharp Memorial Hospital in San Diego.
Practicing Medicine in Las Vegas
In 1999, Dr. Murray left California for a second time and struck out on his own, opening up a private practice in Las Vegas. Locating his office just east of the strip, Murray—again taking a cue from his father—aimed to serve not just the city's wealthy, but its underserved as well. In 2006, Murray expanded his scope and returned to the city where his father had made a name for himself to open the Acres Homes Heart and Vascular Institute.
"We have been so lucky to have Dr. Murray and that clinic in this community," Houston patient Ruby Mosley told People magazine. "There are many, many patients that thank God this man was here for them."
Those who've had financial dealings with the doctor, however, might feel otherwise. Unpaid debts, lawsuits, and tax liens have followed Dr. Murray's life. More than $400,000 in court judgments alone were issued against his Las Vegas practice, and in December 2008 Dr. Murray, who has an unknown number of children, was ordered to cough up $3,700 in unpaid child support.
(Again the debt issues)
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Could this be true, would she say something like that? (published 26th November 2013)
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/352704/Michael-Jackson-s-ex-wife-predicts-Conrad-Murray-will-be-shot-dead-in-18-months
Michael Jackson's ex-wife predicts Conrad Murray will be shot dead in 18 months
MICHAEL Jackson’s ex-wife Debbie Rowe urged his fans to kill death doctor Conrad Murray, saying: “I’d buy the bullet".
She lashed out after the disgraced medic questioned Jacko’s relationship with her in a recent interview.
Murray, who was jailed for involuntary silence after he was released from prison last month.
He said: “Michael told me he never slept with Debbie Rowe. We joked that neither of us would want to have sex with her.”
But Rowe, mum of two of Jackson’s children, hit back yesterday and told aUS website Murray would be dead in 18 months.
She fumed: “A Jackson fan will shoot him dead, and I’d buy the bullet. I wouldn’t shoot him but I’d buy the bullet.”
Debbie even said she would buy a “hollow-point” expanding shell to make his death more painful.
Responding to his sex slur, she added: “If I had a dog as ugly as him I’d shave its ass, make it walk backwards and put a wig on it.
“It takes two to f*** and there’s not enough alcohol in the world.”
Murray, 60, has also insisted Jackson killed himself by overdosing on a private stash of drugs.
But Rowe dismissed those claims, saying: “It’s so disgusting, he’s trashing the dead. The jury sure didn’t buy his story.”
The former nurse, 54, met the King of Pop at a skin treatment centre and they married in 1996.
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LOL, well let's see what May 2015 brings shall we?!! I remember reading this at the time, but bear in mind the Daily Star is pure tabloid rubbish.
I'm glad you're posting here Do. With your leanings towards MJ being dead, I'm interested in how you view Murray.
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yes it's tabloid trash, but somehow i could see Debbie talking like that, she has a big mouth, for what i saw from her she always protected MJ.
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Well Curls, I have to admit that man is a true mystery to me! I can't remember for the life of me seeing any murderer getting so much attention and airtime (and hate) as Murray. Indeed strange that he seems never to get attacked by angry fans, yet he is totally all over the place. Is it possible that he is part of an alternate hoax (I mean that he is 'contracted' to play his part in the 'Michael-hoax', after letting Michael die by accident or on purpose? And so is he perhaps working for the 'enemy'?). Again, I don't have a clue!
@Shy, LOL, I am totally seeing Debbie speaking like that. I can't remember reading it before, and ofcourse we don't know if she ever said it. But it sounded like her!
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The pessimist in me thinks that possibly the many clues we've received come from the estate in order to create mystery around MJ much like Elvis as a marketing ploy. Not that I feel it was needed. MJ is a legend in any case. The most famous person in the world.
I also think that IF he has not faked his death then he must have been murdered. I really hope that this is not true.
We have no proof of anything, dead, alive, hoax, murder.
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Wasn't there another Murray, a middle-aged white man, who sat in the People vs. Conrad Murray trial...around that time there were pictures saying the white man is the real Murray.
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I think MJ is alive, faked his death, and this is his legacy. A weirdo death to go with his weirdo life.
I think the questions about his "death" and the "clues" that came after were just part of the show. It's his Elvis impersonation and having made the whole world aware of his mantra of obsessively always striving to be the best--keeps us all hanging indefinitely, waiting for him to top Elvis. But maybe he really doesn't care as much as we think/thought.
MJ is smart , and everyone knows as soon as someone dies they instantly transcend their earthly misdeeds.. or perceived misdeeds. He knew death was the only sure way he could revive his brand so his kids could have some sort of cushy life, because lord knows they were all going no where in 2009 pre-D day. With two strikes against them and having to forever bear that name, something had to be done and desperate times call for desperate measures and I think MJ was pretty desperate. His brand was in the gutter with seeming no hope of resurrection. Except for death, and he knew that, because everyone knows that. It's unspoken truth. As soon as some celebrity dies they get honored and their brand value increases, just automatically. So it's what he had to do, for his kids, for his mother, for himself.
So sure, he could have died normally, but when does MJ do anything normal? He didn't have a normal life, and it was all orchestrated and choreographed by himself post-1980 or so... so it stands to reason, just common sense here, that his death should follow suit.
Forget Murray, he's just a distraction. An actor, a player, a character. He probably did actually go to jail. What's 2 years for a couple mil? Who wouldn't do that? In my opinion, none of it matters, it's all just a show. Enjoy the gifts MJ left us, he's done. Well, done with his public "life" anyway. That's why everything has his stink all over it, because he IS in control, like he always was, but I no longer think this has any big meaning or will culminate in any big Bamsday event. It just is. Entertainment. I was entertained so I'm happy. I hope he is too, and I hope it all worked out the way he expected, but I doubt he cares because his "estate" has made a killing and that's all that mattered in the end. That was the goal, I believe, so mission accomplished.
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Good to hear from you bec, but how can I forget Murray when, as Suspicious said:
hummm murray is physically free yes but is still trapped by his circumstances . still struggling to prove his innocence so that he can
go back to the thing that is his passion his way of being productive.
Everyone else that had to be involved in MJ's 'death' are free to get on with their lives, but Murray's loose ends aren't tied up yet. Regardless of whether he is a real person or merely a 'character', his story is not over. It's no coincidence, IMO, that Suspicious' comment also relates totally to MJ after 2005.
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@bec
Totally agree with you, your words are my thought. And i'm more and more convinced that Murray - is only a clue of Michael : a man who, after injustice has regained his freedom.
And , as always, I'm waiting for.. :moonwalk_:
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Hi all, I read all the thoughts, and I agree that Conrad Murray is the main actor in this hoax. We believe that MJ is alive, this makes CM is innocent. However, with MJ dead or alive, Murray should insist his innocence, after all have to get on with life and work. My intuition tells me that CM is a scapegoat who? do not know, but it is unthinkable that a cardiologist doctor do not know CPR. I think it's normal not to know the life of CM before the King of Pop, but from 2009 until it makes me angry to see this man always immutable in photos and interviews.
I just hope that someday we can know what really happened, we currently are seeing that the media are echoing the hoax, because it suits them or believe? MJ faked his death, and this is no longer a secret.
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Wasn't there another Murray, a middle-aged white man, who sat in the People vs. Conrad Murray trial...around that time there were pictures saying the white man is the real Murray.
Yes, i do remember that , i remember i searched him at google he came up right away, strange ,...i can't find him anymore.
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Because it was just a misquoted pic.
Murray is MJ, he represents MJ. That's it. I don't think there's anything else there.
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OK,...but still isn't it strange that , several years ago he came up at google and now he don't? It's quite hard to erase pictures from the internet?
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'White' Murray turned out to be a member of the defense team named Matt Alford. He was seated behind them at the trial.
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Because it was just a misquoted pic.
Murray is MJ, he represents MJ. That's it. I don't think there's anything else there.
:th_bravo: ;D
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I like so many others think that Murray is the key figure in all of this and that he does represent Michael to a degree.
Do I think Murray is a real doctor? Yes I do. I base that on an article on his fathers death.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=2001_3320172
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/obits_3501993/rawle-andrews-m-d.html
I'm sure everyone remembers that Murray's father lost his license for subscribing medication that he shouldn't have, why that was important information for us to find I don't know.
So if Murray is a real doctor, why did he agree to take the fall in a hoax? Maybe he truly is a really good friend of Michael's.
Is it possible the Murray that we see is not the real Murray? Yep.
Was he involved in this hoax or being used? I think he has been a part of this since day one. The reason I believe this is because of the telephone call that was placed from Murray's Las Vegas residence on June 25th, 2009 - one of the phone numbers that Michael Amir made sure we saw during the trial. That phone number belonged to a land line, not a cell like everyone wanted us to believe. Why would someone be calling from Murray's home on June 25th, 2009?
Lots of questions still remain unanswered, but I believe Murray does hold the key to all of this.
Love you Michael!
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... I think he has been a part of this since day one. The reason I believe this is because of the telephone call that was placed from Murray's Las Vegas residence on June 25th, 2009 - one of the phone numbers that Michael Amir made sure we saw during the trial. That phone number belonged to a land line, not a cell like everyone wanted us to believe. Why would someone be calling from Murray's home on June 25th, 2009?
I don't think I've ever heard of this before - could you tell me more about this phone call?
Also, without meaning to pry, I'm interested in what's made you start posting again after nearly 4 years away!
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but it is unthinkable that a cardiologist doctor do not know CPR.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,24602.0.html
and i have always wondered the same about the body guards. these weren't "the memphis mafia" they were supposed to be pro
http://www.security-guard-training.net/bodyguard-training.htm
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@curls LOL! No mystery, the reason for not posting for so long is that I was actually a member someplace else.
As for the phone number, yes a call had been placed from Murray's home phone number on June 25th. Michael Amir showed it to the world when he was on the stand. Do you remember him holding up his cell phone and it displayed 3 numbers; cell, home and office. He said he wasn't sure if he had the right number listed for what place but the numbers belonged to Murray and both the defense and prosecution actually had to make a stipulation about all of the phone numbers involved (exhibit 52) which got me searching which ended up finding a site online that dealt with phone numbers and it was clear that the number listed for Murray's home was indeed a home phone number, not a cell.
Haven't been able to figure out who called though!
Love you Michael!
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Thanks iamhere, so someone called Murray's mobile from his home landline? Girlfriend probably, wouldn't you think? Do you think there's something fishy here?
EDIT: Sorry, just reread your original post, you're saying the call from Murray's home was to Amir's mobile, not Murray's? LOL maybe I need to unearth that part of the trial!
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MJ is smart , and everyone knows as soon as someone dies they instantly transcend their earthly misdeeds.. or perceived misdeeds. He knew death was the only sure way he could revive his brand so his kids could have some sort of cushy life, because lord knows they were all going no where in 2009 pre-D day. With two strikes against them and having to forever bear that name, something had to be done and desperate times call for desperate measures and I think MJ was pretty desperate. His brand was in the gutter with seeming no hope of resurrection. Except for death, and he knew that, because everyone knows that. It's unspoken truth. As soon as some celebrity dies they get honored and their brand value increases, just automatically. So it's what he had to do, for his kids, for his mother, for himself.
So sure, he could have died normally, but when does MJ do anything normal? He didn't have a normal life, and it was all orchestrated and choreographed by himself post-1980 or so... so it stands to reason, just common sense here, that his death should follow suit.
Forget Murray, he's just a distraction. An actor, a player, a character. He probably did actually go to jail. What's 2 years for a couple mil? Who wouldn't do that? In my opinion, none of it matters, it's all just a show. Enjoy the gifts MJ left us, he's done. Well, done with his public "life" anyway. That's why everything has his stink all over it, because he IS in control, like he always was, but I no longer think this has any big meaning or will culminate in any big Bamsday event. It just is. Entertainment. I was entertained so I'm happy. I hope he is too, and I hope it all worked out the way he expected, but I doubt he cares because his "estate" has made a killing and that's all that mattered in the end. That was the goal, I believe, so mission accomplished.
Agreed. Mission accomplished. God Bless Michael.
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Mission accomplished? Hardly. No one would go to all this trouble to create such an absurd story just to escape. I say he comes back. And of course, no one believes that. What kind of surprise would it be if everyone knew it was going to happen other than a few intrepid and crazy souls like us.
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Gwynned, I don't think bec ever said MJ did it 'just to escape'. She's saying he did it to make money, as his 'brand' and reputation were pretty much destroyed. Correct me if I've misunderstood you bec.
Trouble I have with this theory is that his brand and reputation were flying high in the 80s when many of us think he first started planning his hoax.
I've always thought entertainment, or maybe showmanship is a better word, is the main driving force behind his hoax, doing it just because he can. Making money as a 'dead icon' is a happy, but much needed, as things turned out in later years, by-product IMO.
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Mission accomplished? Hardly. No one would go to all this trouble to create such an absurd story just to escape. I say he comes back. And of course, no one believes that. What kind of surprise would it be if everyone knew it was going to happen other than a few intrepid and crazy souls like us.
It would be quite a surprise if MJ resurfaced, however I could not stomach the colossal chaos, pressure, scrutiny and cruelty that MJ would have to sustain from the public. I admittedly would love to see MJ come back - primarily for fundamentally selfish reasons. But it is not all about me being entertained. In this instance I cannot be selfish. MJ's joy is and always will be paramount... :icon_e_wink:
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Echo, do you really think that would be the reaction of the public? I don't! I think most would let out a few choice words in amazement and then they'd be thrilled! Haters will always hate, the tabloids will do what tabloids do, but in something as mega as MJ returning I reckon the general public would go with their hearts, not with the tabloids.
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Echo, do you really think that would be the reaction of the public? I don't! I think most would let out a few choice words in amazement and then they'd be thrilled! Haters will always hate, the tabloids will do what tabloids do, but in something as mega as MJ returning I reckon the general public would go with their hearts, not with the tabloids.
Hello Curls, I have clarified my thoughts for your review. And thank you so much for asking, it was a prompting to compose my thoughts and feelings in a way that I have not in the past.
To me Michael was a precious gift to humanity. As Mother Nature would have it, my gratefulness and love for Michael has grown more in his absence beyond analytical comprehension. In my denial to accept Michaels’s death, principally under the reported state of affairs that he died, one flicker of hope is a substantiated death hoax. I think that there are four driving factors that would warrant a death hoax.
1. A spiritual calling
2. To assure the financial security and safety for his children
3. An escape from the wearisome pressures of public life
4. An escape from press & media inaccuracies; including gross exaggeration
I would be blissfully elated if Michael reemerged. I would embrace his return with open arms in love. However, his return would be poignant. There would be an international mass media circus; a media feeding fury beyond any fraction imaginable. I have no interest in witnessing the media dissect and mutilate Michael’s judgment and character. I would loathe the cold-bloodedness and powerfully unforgiving commentary. In addition, his resurfacing would cause subsequent confrontational fallout, innocent casualties and irreparable collateral damage. This would make me sad for Michael and his children.
If this is a death hoax, I pray that Michael is living at peace in seclusion with a joyful heart. Whatever is best for him…
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Well said echo.
I know for myself there have been highs and lows during the past 5 years but the one thing that I never wondered was if this really was a hoax. With all of the slip ups and inconsistencies it just made sense to me that the world was being played by Michael.
However, I do believe that this was and still is not a game. Something happened for Michael to have to leave.
But if Michael did die why after 5 years are there still things being said and done that just doesn't make any sense?
Granted, you can expect some discrepancies and fall out from family members when a person passes away but for all of that to happen the moment he died at 2:26 PM was just the start of what we have been given over the past 5 years. And think about the autopsy report - no mention of the burn.
I don't want to find Michael but I do want to know what happened and why it happened. Even Katherine said she just wants to know what happened to her son. And that in itself I think was a shout out to the believers.
I will continue on this great adventure with Michael leading the way.
Love you Michael!
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I maintain that we over complicate this maybe because we look at a death hoax through our own eyes, thinking about what would drive us, personally to fake our own death. That naturally leads to 'something serious'. We forget we are dealing with an eccentric showman here, for whom a death hoax must've seemed a great personal adventure as well as 'the greatest show on earth'.
BUT ... it's only 'the greatest show on earth' if he comes back. A handful of crazy believers doesn't make for 'the greatest'!
AND ... the great personal adventure might, away from his previous reality, not be that great after all.
SO ... the hoax might be one big fail. He may find himself now in a place far worse than any the media/haters/leeches/traitors may have put him in.
And that's what would make me sad.
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Well said echo.
I know for myself there have been highs and lows during the past 5 years but the one thing that I never wondered was if this really was a hoax. With all of the slip ups and inconsistencies it just made sense to me that the world was being played by Michael.
However, I do believe that this was and still is not a game. Something happened for Michael to have to leave.
Thank you.
I have a been a silent observer of this board for several years. One observation that I have made, is that everyone is not on one accord relative to the definition of "hoax". A "hoax" is a malicious or humorous deception. I do not think that Michael orchestrated a hoax. I suspect that Michael is alive and agree that something happened for Michael to have to leave.
My curiosity too is peaked. :icon_e_wink:
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I maintain that we over complicate this maybe because we look at a death hoax through our own eyes, thinking about what would drive us, personally to fake our own death. That naturally leads to 'something serious'. We forget we are dealing with an eccentric showman here, for whom a death hoax must've seemed a great personal adventure as well as 'the greatest show on earth'.
BUT ... it's only 'the greatest show on earth' if he comes back. A handful of crazy believers doesn't make for 'the greatest'!
AND ... the great personal adventure might, away from his previous reality, not be that great after all.
SO ... the hoax might be one big fail. He may find himself now in a place far worse than any the media/haters/leeches/traitors may have put him in.
And that's what would make me sad.
Curls, I love this thread. To clarify my position, my understanding of a hoax is malicious or humorous deception. I suspect that Michael is alive, but do not think his intent is to entertain his public. As I stated in my earlier post, I believe that Michael's departure was based on reasons for self-preservation and the safety and security of his children. I believe what we have witnessed is a masquerade.
You are right, what is complicated is the paradox of mental conception.
My feelings, thoughts and theories after 5 years?
Well...I am going to take tons of heat for this one :compute: :over-react-smiley:
I think that we, who think that Michael Jackson is alive for whatever reason, have lost our way. Too much time and attention is focused on mindless speculation. There needs to be more critical thinking.
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Ok Echo, lets not use the word 'hoax' then! Does 'faked death' suit you better?
So tell me, in the spirit of critical thinking, how does needing to leave for the sake of 'self-preservation and the safety and security of his children' tie in with a 'death', so elaborate, so complicated and so meticulously planned, involving so many people, that 5 years of investigation by those who question it leads them nowhere but awash with mindless speculation? Self-preservation surely requires no trace, no suspicions, nothing. Would he or could he even have put all this together if he had to leave?
Love this thread too, echo!
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Hi Curls,
We certainly are on one accord that MJ lives.
My referral to critical thinking is to determine how we can better control the structure of the investigation. I think it has been a bit inefficient. However, we first must concede where we are going with the research.
What is the purpose?
Tell me something, what is your objective?
My objective is to secure conclusive evidence that MJ lives.
When do we begin to apply our energy to resolution?
I think that there are too many topics and questions that cause confusion. An important part of critical thinking is calculating both short-term and long-term outcomes for each alternative. We must figure out a way to skillfully organize our thinking and impressions. Organizational charts are in order.
Below is an overview to Problem Solving 101.
I think that we consistently miss the mark on numbers 3, 4 and 5.
What do you think we can we do better?
5 Step Problem Solving Strategy
1. Specify the problem - a first step to
solving a problem is to identify it as specifically as possible. It involves evaluating the present state and determining how it differs from the goal state.
2. Analyze the problem - analyzing the problem involves learning as much as you can about it. It may be necessary to look beyond the obvious, surface situation, to stretch your imagination and reach for more creative options.
o seek other perspectives
o be flexible in your analysis
o consider various strands of impact
o brainstorm about all possibilities and implications
o research problems for which you lack complete information. Get help.
3. Formulate possible solutions - identify a wide range of possible solutions.
o try to think of all possible solutions
o be creative
o consider similar problems and how you have solved them
4. Evaluate possible solutions - weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each solution. Think through each solution and consider how, when, and where you could accomplish each. Consider both immediate and long-term results. Mapping your solutions can be helpful at this stage.
5. Choose a solution - consider 3 factors:
o compatibility with your priorities
o amount of risk
o practicality
:icon_e_smile:
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LOL Echo, it sounds like you've been on a management training course!
I'll have to get back to you on this as I don't have time right now to properly formulate my thoughts, but my initial response is to ask why you think we have not covered all of these bullet points as our investigation has evolved and progressed over the past five years. We may not have had a flip chart or a formal 'tick list', but that doesn't mean we haven't been thorough!
Please, now that you're no longer a silent observer, tell us exactly where we've gone wrong and if you genuinely believe it's possible from 5 Steps to get all the answers, proof and solutions you need to 'solve' MJ's death.
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wow I feel like im enrolled in a university class. maybe we should be private investigators lol. Anyway, some days all the endless thoughts running thru my head on this make me wanna :screaming-7365:.
This cannot be explained easily. Its just tooooo much to say that he simply did it for the kids. He could've done the 50 concerts and that would've provided financial security for the kids. Although I never bought the rumors of him being broke, I think the music catalogs that he owns that contain 755,000 songs will provide financially for his great great grandchildren. So I do not think he needed the money for his kids. Theres more than enough of that to go around.
Everything is too crazy in all of this. Here are my thoughts and questions in no particular order but just random:
What really happened at that house on 6/25/2009? Was it even MJ at that house? Did he ever live in that house? Did he ever even go to Bahrain as reported? If so, was it him that came back from Bahrain? Why did Murray say that Mike left the room, so he went to make a call and when he came back MJ was dead? Why no grief from the family? Why all the slipups, inconsistencies, lies? Why did Katherine tell 2 different stories regarding Murray? First she said he told her at the hospital that MJ had died. Then in an interview on tv a few months later, she specifically said that she never has seen or spoken with Murray. :smiley-vault-misc-150:
Why was Joe Jackson promoting his record label on tv the day after the "death" and smiling saying that the family was fine? Why did the kids look oh so bored at the funeral? Why were none of MJ good close friends like Diana Ross at his memorial? Why did Janet lie and give 2 different locations as to her whereabouts when she got the news of MJ being in the hospital? Why did Kathy Hilton tell a story about MJ living at a motel during the time he was supposedly living at the house? Why is there no doctor, nurse, patient or other eyewitness account of MJ being at the hospital? Absolute silence. Why are all of MJ personal doctors all on tv revealing his confidential medical information? That is illegal here in the US. Why is his family not complaining about the docs telling his medical history out in public? :icon_mad:
Why did Elizabeth Taylor tweet that her friend was doing well and breathing on his own on 6/25/2009? Why is the death certificate not signed? Why did the chief of police that was over this case resign what like 2 weeks after this happened? He had been on the force for what like 30 years? But he suddenly resigns in the midst of this high profile case. Why did the video of MJ stepping out of a coroners van surface? Which to me looked very real. :WTF:
Why do many of his friends and family still speak of him in the present tense? Where in the world is Janet and her "new" hubby? For her and MJ to be so close, you never see her. Why no name on his tomb at Forest Lawn? Why did Latoya say in her book that her and her fiancé took MJ out of his coffin and sat him up so that the police could get another hair sample? :omg: She says but she kept a sheet over his face the whole time. Then why did she say that his gloves were duct taped to his hands? hmmm. Who duct tapes gloves to a dead person? I never knew you could put a dead body in a seated position. Why the longgggg wait until the burial?
Why did Latoya say that she went back to look in his coffin more than 10 times BEFORE the burial? Why did Katherine say on tv that the kids went to view his body in the morgue at least 10 times? What child does that? What coroner allows that? Why did Latoya end her book by saying that everyday, she sits and wonders if her brothers body is really in that casket? None of the family was there when he was actually buried!!!! Why not? Are they in on it? Or is the joke on them? Why did Joe say that he didn't know where Mikes body was? :affraid:
Is Murray even a real doctor? Why did Lisa Marie up and move to London and said she will never return to the US? Really? And her dads huge estate is here that she is heir to? Ever pay attention to her weird husband Michael, who seemed to meet and marry her out of nowhere? :WTF: Was it really MJ at the 02 announcement in London? Why did Latoya tell us to watch the Illusionist movie?
So many unanswered questions. NOTHING adds up. All the numerology, the family being weird and evasive. Why all the toys and silliness in the courtroom during the Murray trial? Why is MJ an "alleged" victim on an "alleged" date? Why the weird missing bellybutton autopsy photo? Why the weird MJ on the gurney pic? Why Murray only serves 2 years and walks down the street with no conscious? MJ has millions of fans globally and yet this man murders MJ and walks down the street and goes to the beach like nothing happened? Maybe because it didn't.
Is there a reason MJ left us? Was it a Biblical reason? Is his message Biblical? I can elaborate more on this if necessary. Was it a "powers that be/illuminati" reason? Was he kidnapped and held against his will, but still have a means to communicate? Is he in a coma? Did the family concoct the "MJ is dead" story themselves because they were tired of the way he was being treated? Is he in a mental institution because he lost his touch with reality after all the lies and accusations? Can the Jacksons be trusted? Are they on his side? Was Dick Gregorys story true about MJ being near death and dehydrated and him taking him to the hospital before that fateful day?
I'm sure I have much more to add to this. I will have to clear my brain a bit and come back later. :Pulling_hair:
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LOL Echo, it sounds like you've been on a management training course!
I'll have to get back to you on this as I don't have time right now to properly formulate my thoughts, but my initial response is to ask why you think we have not covered all of these bullet points as our investigation has evolved and progressed over the past five years. We may not have had a flip chart or a formal 'tick list', but that doesn't mean we haven't been thorough!
Please, now that you're no longer a silent observer, tell us exactly where we've gone wrong and if you genuinely believe it's possible from 5 Steps to get all the answers, proof and solutions you need to 'solve' MJ's death.
LOL...my thoughts have been formulating for quite a while. Take your time...
This site is fantastic :th_bravo:
Please understand that as a silent observer I have made no judgement that anything is wrong. There is nothing wrong. My observation is that it is time to raise the bar on the process and begin to show productivity.
The five steps is a theoretical example, a guide of sorts, not to be taken literally line by line.
Michaelslady ( :screaming-7365: :Pulling_hair: ...lol ) has given us a short list of the mounds of questions and phenomenal information compiled. These same questions (and more) spin round and round and round in my head too.
So I ask again, where are we going with this information and how are we going to get there?
It's time to defrag and format...
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Maybe we could start with a list of what we would search on and what would give us the best results in figuring out what happened and why. It would be nice to know if it was Michael or not at the 02 but that isn’t going to tell us what happened or why.
And go in a different direction with searching, dig deep and think outside the box.
Since I am new to this site, I’m not sure if what I know (or think) has already been discussed here. There is a ton of information to go through and I don’t want to repeat what is already here.
Here are a few things that might be new:
1. In the Carolwood raid report there is a number that is associated with the investigation and I got the guts to contact the coroners office and I was given a name and date of death that corresponds to that number (it looks very much like an autopsy report number). The sad part is that it was of a 3 month old baby. To go along with that in Murray’s arraignment report from 2010 there is a SCARS report – it has to do with abuse. Maybe we can dig a little deeper into this.
2. The above kind of ties in with who is buried at Forest Lawn. I believe children are buried there – the tomb actually consists of 8 chambers and if I am remembering correctly there were 15 plots purchased by the family. I did research after receiving the info from the coroners report and in the year 2008 there were like 14 deaths of children where Childrens Services were involved. Elyssa Fleaks (the coroners assistant or something like that) is actually an advocate for children.
3. I was lucky enough to talk to a guard at Neverland and he said things, without saying anything - if you know what I mean. He also signed a confidentiality agreement after being hired in 2009 and he was at Neverland in 2005. Maybe what he said can shed some light on some things.
I’m not sure if this is what you are talking about Echo but I’m all for trying a different approach.
Love you Michael!
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I really don't want to put a dampener on your ideas, and it'd be great to see some serious investigating again here - it's been lacking for some time, probably due to tiredness and feeling jaded and needing to get on with life away from a screen!
I honestly don't know how many here still have the stomach for yet more investigating, though I know Souza has wanted it for some time! I'm not sure that many feel the need, as they have either satisfied themselves that MJ is alive and have left it at that to pay attention to their own lives, leaving here completely, or going to where they think the action is, or just popping in to read, not wanting to miss anything, just in case, or, they still doubt it and have moved on or are still watching here - just in case, or they decided he's dead!
I'll tell you where I stand, I came here to find out if MJ could still be alive, bothered by all the strange things that didn't add up, starting with the 02 announcement that just felt 'weird'. I reached the conclusion he's alive not by any one thing, but a culmination of many, that on their own prove nothing! That conclusion was reinforced many times as the months/years went by, but the enthusiasm and hope of a return evaporated at the end of 2012. Enter the jaded, tired feeling!
I'm still here though as I don't think Murray's story is over yet, and so I keep watching. I'm not convinced of a come back any more, I think MJ's goals and ambitions may have changed with his 'time out', but I'm still hoping for some sort of an ending, a conclusion, before I go, so I'm not prepared yet to throw in the towel. I'll be honest and say I'll be disappointed if this all just fizzles out. I am very apprehensive of getting into obsessive computer time (again), especially when I don't see how it could make MJ any more alive for me! I don't need any more proof.
That being said, I know we've missed a lot ( I don't think I've heard of the points you just raised iamhere, for example), so it'd be pretty neat to fill in some of the gaps ... and it probably wouldn't take much to spark my enthusiasm again!
michaelslady, yours was a brilliant post, you listed so many of the strange oddities we've witnessed and it was great to actually read them all listed again, rather than (what I generally do) a blanket. cover-all 'weird stuff' statement.
Well done guys - now I must do some life stuff!
P.S. It's great to have you here michaelslady, echo and iamhere4mj - you've injected some much needed life into the forum and brought up some interesting ideas on a number of threads! Sorry if I'm fighting the enthusiasm!
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I know the feeling. its exhausting. but this is like a train wreck; I just cant look away. Something is keeping me interested. I let go for 4 years, still thinking he was alive, but didn't know what to make of my thoughts. I lurked here off and on for the first few months. but then I didn't know what to make of the weird things that simply didn't add up. but im in too deep and just cant let go. there has to be an end to all of this. I hope we can make some sense of it all. but its like we don't know where to even begin. too bad we are not rich, because we could pay people to tell us what really happen lol
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I really don't want to put a dampener on your ideas, and it'd be great to see some serious investigating again here - it's been lacking for some time, probably due to tiredness and feeling jaded and needing to get on with life away from a screen!
I honestly don't know how many here still have the stomach for yet more investigating, though I know Souza has wanted it for some time! I'm not sure that many feel the need, as they have either satisfied themselves that MJ is alive and have left it at that to pay attention to their own lives, leaving here completely, or going to where they think the action is, or just popping in to read, not wanting to miss anything, just in case, or, they still doubt it and have moved on or are still watching here - just in case, or they decided he's dead!
I'll tell you where I stand, I came here to find out if MJ could still be alive, bothered by all the strange things that didn't add up, starting with the 02 announcement that just felt 'weird'. I reached the conclusion he's alive not by any one thing, but a culmination of many, that on their own prove nothing! That conclusion was reinforced many times as the months/years went by, but the enthusiasm and hope of a return evaporated at the end of 2012. Enter the jaded, tired feeling!
I'm still here though as I don't think Murray's story is over yet, and so I keep watching. I'm not convinced of a come back any more, I think MJ's goals and ambitions may have changed with his 'time out', but I'm still hoping for some sort of an ending, a conclusion, before I go, so I'm not prepared yet to throw in the towel. I'll be honest and say I'll be disappointed if this all just fizzles out. I am very apprehensive of getting into obsessive computer time (again), especially when I don't see how it could make MJ any more alive for me! I don't need any more proof.
That being said, I know we've missed a lot ( I don't think I've heard of the points you just raised iamhere, for example), so it'd be pretty neat to fill in some of the gaps ... and it probably wouldn't take much to spark my enthusiasm again!
michaelslady, yours was a brilliant post, you listed so many of the strange oddities we've witnessed and it was great to actually read them all listed again, rather than (what I generally do) a blanket. cover-all 'weird stuff' statement.
Well done guys - now I must do some life stuff!
P.S. It's great to have you here michaelslady, echo and iamhere4mj - you've injected some much needed life into the forum and brought up some interesting ideas on a number of threads! Sorry if I'm fighting the enthusiasm!
No apology needed. You all have been going at it for quite some time. Our thought process is that MJ did not die. I have to tell you, proving that something did not happen is very difficult. A few of the greatest minds have said that it is virtually impossible.
I joined the forum because I noticed that the members were a failing breed. Diminishing slowly...
Hopefully people will respond to my DO NOT REPLY threads and we will be able to decipher and put a few things in perspective.
Happy for our exchanges!
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Hello @Echo. I need more clarification on the 'Do Not Reply Zone' threads. So, we would only respond with information on the topic and not include our personal thoughts and feelings about it? Is that correct?
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Hi NJS,
Your commentary can include anything that you want. Personal opinions, evidence, impressions etc.
The only restriction is that we do not reply on these threads. Our goal is to create a series of threads that are "easier" to navigate for ideas and information.
Any thoughts on this concept?
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Ah. I get it now. I think this is a great idea.
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Everytime it seems as if we get close to knowing what could've truly happened, its like starting all over again. Somedays I get discouraged and wanna give up.
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Everytime it seems as if we get close to knowing what could've truly happened, its like starting all over again. Somedays I get discouraged and wanna give up.
I understand. It can be discouraging. But do not give up. Maintain hope. Waive expectation. And continue to Believe. We may never know what truly happened - but we certainly can Believe.