Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Latest News => TMZ.com => Michael Jackson News => TMZ Articles => Topic started by: MaryK on July 13, 2012, 03:31:19 PM
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(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjestaede.jpg)
Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune since the singer's death -- so much in fact ... it's nearly paid off $500 million in debt the King of Pop left behind when he died.
Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ -- which show the Estate has generated gross earnings exceeding $475 million as of the end of May.
According to the docs, all of MJ's debts have been paid, with the exception of a BIG debt involving Michael's publishing catalog ... and executors expect that will be fully paid off by the end of the year.
It's not only good news for the Estate ... it's great news for the small army of lawyers who have been handling all the legal and business affairs. Their fees -- from May, 2010 through November, 2011 -- exceeded $13.6 MILLION!
Two other things ... Katherine is asking for an additional $34,700 a month to pay for lawyers and accountants, and another $205,041 to cover lawyer and accountant fees from 2011.
Final thing --There are still some unresolved creditors' claims and several lawsuits to clear up.
All in all ... not a bad turnaround.
Michael Jackson Estate Clears MJ's MASSIVE Debt ... Almost | TMZ.com (http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/13/michael-jackson-estate-debt-almost-cleared-catalog/)
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Well this finally confirms that Michael is worth more dead than alive, well done Michael you are a clever man.
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Like the choice of picture,"almost ready to take of his glasses"
L.L.R
Shy :)
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Do not believe in the supposed ruin of Michael
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:icon_eek: Is that a new picture. I don’t remember seeing it before. This article kinda gives a new meaning to we’ve only got four years. In four years seems all debts will be cleared.
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Do not believe in the supposed ruin of Michael
Me either.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjestaede.jpg)
Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune since the singer's death -- so much in fact ... it's nearly paid off $500 million in debt the King of Pop left behind when he died.
Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ -- which show the Estate has generated gross earnings exceeding $475 million as of the end of May.
According to the docs, all of MJ's debts have been paid, with the exception of a BIG debt involving Michael's publishing catalog ... and executors expect that will be fully paid off by the end of the year.
It's not only good news for the Estate ... it's great news for the small army of lawyers who have been handling all the legal and business affairs. Their fees -- from May, 2010 through November, 2011 -- exceeded $13.6 MILLION!
Two other things ... Katherine is asking for an additional $34,700 a month to pay for lawyers and accountants, and another $205,041 to cover lawyer and accountant fees from 2011.
Final thing --There are still some unresolved creditors' claims and several lawsuits to clear up.
All in all ... not a bad turnaround.
Michael Jackson Estate Clears MJ's MASSIVE Debt ... Almost | TMZ.com (http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/13/michael-jackson-estate-debt-almost-cleared-catalog/)
I can believe that MJ was "in debt" - on paper - but I think in reality his assets (and many we don't know about) far far far outweigh the numbers-on-paper debt. There was definite strategic planning to this, like it provides a loophole or something but there has to be legal reasons for doing it this way.
And now I will pick apart TMZ's article for fun. :icon_geek:
"MICHAEL JACKSON
Estate Clears MJ's Massive
Debt ... Almost"
"Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune ... " :icon_e_ugeek:
"Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ" (natch) :D
" ... by the end of the year. " :icon_bounce:
" ... it's great news for the small army of lawyers" love :beerchug:
" All in all ... not a bad turnaround. " :icon_cool:
:fresse:
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I like very much that interpretation Andrea. :icon_razz:
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I can believe that MJ was "in debt" - on paper - but I think in reality his assets (and many we don't know about) far far far outweigh the numbers-on-paper debt. There was definite strategic planning to this, like it provides a loophole or something but there has to be legal reasons for doing it this way.
And now I will pick apart TMZ's article for fun. :icon_geek:
"MICHAEL JACKSON
Estate Clears MJ's Massive
Debt ... Almost"
"Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune ... " :icon_e_ugeek:
"Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ" (natch) :D
" ... by the end of the year. " :icon_bounce:
" ... it's great news for the small army of lawyers" love :beerchug:
" All in all ... not a bad turnaround. " :icon_cool:
:fresse:
I like your interpretation too Andrea....
Interesting the part I have bolded above, how they link the turnaround to Bad...... BAD25 doco coming out soon and the release of the Wembley concert etc...again going back to the thought that BAD era was when the hoax started being planned.
Also especially like "the small army of lawyers" love :icon_cool:
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"...Almost"...
that would be nice to think.
Ps. This pic is from the set where it looks like MJ is wearing a mask, because his shirt is a pale flesh color and the way his collar lays it makes an optical illusion of a mask's bottom edge peaking out. Maybe someone else knows the pic I'm talking about, from this same day/event.
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Bec, I remember discussion on a similar pic like that.
I found this video of Gerald Posner to be interesting. He worked for the Daily Beast and interviewed Murray in the docu.
He said some horrible things about Michael, but what was interesting concerning MJ's finances was that Posner said MJ had his lawyers before the trial, split MJ's money into various hidden assets, so that it would look like he had less money, in case there were lawsuits after the trial. The video maker said it was actually that MJ was getting ready for the hoax 'bankrupt' scenario!!
MJ, you are one crazy smart guy!! Watch at 5:33.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1lvOcVccfU&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
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Thank you for sharing this with us. I also don't buy that MJ had no money or was deeply in debt. Many around me think I'm delusional because the media has been pushing a broken man who was deeply in debt. I think it's been a "front" all along and MJonmind's post gives strong confirmation to that.
Andrea - like your post too. :)
Michael - great job. Nobody deserves this more than you. You've worked hard for your money and nobody should have the right to steal it from you through lies and petty lawsuits.
Blessings
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it's nearly paid off $500 million in debt the King of Pop left behind when he died.
Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ -- which show the Estate has generated gross earnings exceeding $475 million as of the end of May.
According to the docs, all of MJ's debts have been paid, with the exception of a BIG debt involving Michael's publishing catalog ... and executors expect that will be fully paid off by the end of the year.
- Debt is that which is ; usually referencing assets owed, but the term can also cover moral obligations and other interactions not requiring money. In the case of assets, debt is a means of using future purchasing power in the present before a summation has been earned. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt (http://www.google.com/url?url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt&rct=j&sa=X&ei=hx0BULj6DsWP4gTCk92vCA&ved=0CDcQngkwAQ&q=debt&usg=AFQjCNGD5Bq_6cK74Zqmx72Bq4OuokZDBA)
25 million debt remaining and every other obligation including the catalogue will be paid off by the end of the year.
With a little help from your friends.
Go Michael!
Waiting for the music to finally come home again.
(http://www.ebsqart.com/Art/Animals/acrylic/687250/650/650/A-Little-Help-From-My-Friends.jpg)
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Lifetime earnings
Jackson has twice been named as the "#1 Entertainer of the Year" on the Forbes list based on his earnings.[368] However, Jackson has not appeared on the Forbes 400. When Forbes editor Peter Newcomb was asked in 2003 to explain Jackson’s absence from their lists he replied “MJ owes $250 to $300 million to a consortium of banks”.[369] Forbes never included Jackson in the list as they only calculate income from musical related moneys and companies publicly recognized for employers in the case of artists. Forbes considered Jackson as an artist and not as a businessman, all the income that is published by Forbes on Michael Jackson are about music rather than contracts, businesses (except Sony/ATV Music Publishing preferentially Forbes value is $5 billion, of which $1.3 billion came from Jackson's own sales as an artist). Jackson's assets are worth around $4 to $6 billion relating to his businesses such as Sony/ATV Music Publishing, Jackson International LLC, The Michael Jackson Company LLC, Sycamore Valley Ranch Company LLC, MJJ Music while naming only a few. Jackson has over $200 million related to properties in Los Angeles, Las Vegas, London and other countries. It is yet unknown of the stake Jackson owns of Neverland Valley Ranch after the year 2008, when it became Sycamore Company LLC (a joint venture between Colony Capital LLC and The Michael Jackson Company). His Neverland Valley Ranch has been valued at $100 to $150 million.[370]
In the last 25 years of Jackson's lifetime, it is estimated he made more than $300 million from his own music royalties and another $400 million from concerts. In the 1980s, Jackson became the biggest musical act in the world with Thriller alone making him $125 million. In 2002, Jackson stated he had made Sony several billion dollars throughout his career.[371] Some analysts have speculated that his music catalog holdings could be worth billions of dollars.[99][372] This speculation however is contradicted by financial documents obtained by the Associated Press, which showed that as of March 31, 2007, Jackson's 50 percent stake in the Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalog (his most prized asset) was worth $390.6 million and Michael Jackson's net worth was $236 million.[373] This value for Jackson's Sony/ATV Music Publishing catalog is highly false. The catalog owns and controls many different record companies and has rights to more than 500,000 songs, including songs by The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Eminem, Akon, Shakira, Bjork, Boyz II Men and Lady Gaga, among hundreds of others. The company is one of the largest music publishers in the world and is believed to generate up to $2.5 billion a year; The Beatles' hits alone bring in $30 million to $45 million a year. Jackson's other publishing firm, Mijac, which publishes songs written by Jackson himself and which used to be administered by competitor Warner/Chappell Music, is valued to be worth at least $450 million. Since 2011 Mijac is administered by Sony/ATV Music Publishing. It is reported that if Sony/ATV Music Publishing, acquires EMI Music Publishing its value would increase to $11 billion.[374][375][376] Billboard has estimated that Jackson has generated at least $1 billion in revenue in the year following his death.[377]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson)
I think there's a LOT more we're not told. I think it all boils down to what you believe about Michael, as to which story you buy--weak or powerful. We know which is correct--right!! ;D How can so many of MJ's long time fans believe he is so weak(dead)?
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Well this finally confirms that Michael is worth more dead than alive, well done Michael you are a clever man.
but if a BAM makes sales / the product of MJ sky rocket thru the roof even further, then that might turn this phrase on its head
michael is worth more alive than a legend is when he is dead.... or such....
LOL...
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Michael Jackson's catalogue is worth $250 million alone....I wonder what the unsettled law suits are??? So Katherine still needs regular funding for payment to the lawyers to fight these lawsuits..
At least, that's how I read it..
Call me crazy, but it looks like some writing on his lips again.............
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/gallery/1346_14_07_12_1_51_58.jpeg)
And there seems to be no wig attachment in this pic.....usually, when you zoom in, you can see the wig hairline glued onto his forehead..another thing that is odd, is that his eyebrows are real hair...including even some white hairs...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/gallery/1346_14_07_12_1_53_13.jpeg)
I thought he had them tattooed on...Hmmmm
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I see this as cleaning all the cobwebs so that when Michael returns there will be no obstacles in his way. He is free to create as he pleases without any fear of retribution from any hangers ons. He can do what he pleases, go where he pleases with whom ever he chooses, and there are no barriers to stop him. No one can say you can’t do it this way or you can’t do it that way. No one can say if you do this or that we will come after you. He will be FREE! No handlers. No skeletons rushing out the closet to claim what is his. I see it as a message to the powers that be, the media, the government, the leeches that Michael Jackson is scott free from their vices and when he returns their grips on him will be loosed. He’s coming back a free man, a new man. So get the fuck out the way and let him through. His name has been cleared and the media is seeing him through different eyes. His debts have been dissolved and he owes nobody a damn thing. Many of His haters have become informed and they no longer listen to the tabloid trash. His death has been a test and he passed with flying colors breaking no laws. Love has blossomed and people love him for the human being they have found him to be through time, patience and knowledge, the only composites it took to make that change.
Michael is coming back and there is not one stone left unturned that can crush him. He is the king :beerchug:He did it his way, legally, and I say well done. :th_bravo:
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Call me crazy, but it looks like some writing on his lips again.............
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/gallery/1346_14_07_12_1_51_58.jpeg)
And there seems to be no wig attachment in this pic.....usually, when you zoom in, you can see the wig hairline glued onto his forehead..another thing that is odd, is that his eyebrows are real hair...including even some white hairs...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/gallery/1346_14_07_12_1_53_13.jpeg)
I thought he had them tattooed on...Hmmmm
Absolutely agree.
I was thinking the same.
Anyone trying to figure out what could possibly be written on his lips? I bet somebody will.... :icon_mrgreen:
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Call me crazy, but it looks like some writing on his lips again.............
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/gallery/1346_14_07_12_1_51_58.jpeg)
And there seems to be no wig attachment in this pic.....usually, when you zoom in, you can see the wig hairline glued onto his forehead..another thing that is odd, is that his eyebrows are real hair...including even some white hairs...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/gallery/1346_14_07_12_1_53_13.jpeg)
I thought he had them tattooed on...Hmmmm
Absolutely agree.
I was thinking the same.
Anyone trying to figure out what could possibly be written on his lips? I bet somebody will.... :icon_mrgreen:
@2good2btrue....Michael has a more natural beauty than what the media has made us think, no tattooed eyebrows, no bald, no so many surgery but make up and so on...
@MaryK.... BAM's day maybe?
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[...]
And now I will pick apart TMZ's article for fun. :icon_geek:
"MICHAEL JACKSON
Estate Clears MJ's Massive
Debt ... Almost"
"Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune ... " :icon_e_ugeek:
"Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ" (natch) :D
" ... by the end of the year. " :icon_bounce:
" ... it's great news for the small army of lawyers" love :beerchug:
" All in all ... not a bad turnaround. " :icon_cool: :fresse:
LOVE this !! ^^
:icon_bounce: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/K_JUMP%7E1.GIF) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/U_JUMP%7E1.GIF) Mike is ALMOST reaady to take his "glasses" off ? youpiii (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/content-saute.gif)
Mike a broke man (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/w%E9w%E9-158.gif) and in debts?!?? :thjajaja121: nevaaaaaa !
He's a genius! he could teach at the Finances & Banks Faculty !! (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/lunettes-cool-20060614.gif)
WATCH this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXg3OmU1LvM&list=PL49B5ED24441F6032&index=26&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL6RG1SeliU&list=PL49B5ED24441F6032&index=27&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]
I see this as cleaning all the cobwebs so that when Michael returns there will be no obstacles in his way. He is free to create as he pleases without any fear of retribution from any hangers ons. He can do what he pleases, go where he pleases with whom ever he chooses, and there are no barriers to stop him. No one can say you can’t do it this way or you can’t do it that way. No one can say if you do this or that we will come after you. He will be FREE! No handlers. No skeletons rushing out the closet to claim what is his. I see it as a message to the powers that be, the media, the government, the leeches that Michael Jackson is scott free from their vices and when he returns their grips on him will be loosed. He’s coming back a free man, a new man. So get the fuck out the way and let him through. His name has been cleared and the media is seeing him through different eyes. His debts have been dissolved and he owes nobody a damn thing. Many of His haters have become informed and they no longer listen to the tabloid trash. His death has been a test and he passed with flying colors breaking no laws. Love has blossomed and people love him for the human being they have found him to be through time, patience and knowledge, the only composites it took to make that change.
Michael is coming back and there is not one stone left unturned that can crush him. He is the king :beerchug:He did it his way, legally, and I say well done. :th_bravo:
I agree!! (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/gentleman.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/oui-content.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/yahoo-supercontent.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/yahoo-supercontent.gif)
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And now I will pick apart TMZ's article for fun. :icon_geek:
"MICHAEL JACKSON
Estate Clears MJ's Massive
Debt ... Almost"
"Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune ... " :icon_e_ugeek:
"Executors for the Estate filed legal docs -- obtained by TMZ" (natch) :D
" ... by the end of the year. " :icon_bounce:
" ... it's great news for the small army of lawyers" love :beerchug:
" All in all ... not a bad turnaround. " :icon_cool:
:fresse:
Nicely put, Andrea! :icon_razz:
And I do not believe these stories that Michael was in dept or almost bankrupt either.
Michael Jackson Estate Worth -- Made $310 MILLION Since Michael Died | TMZ.com (http://www.tmz.com/2011/02/17/michael-jackson-debts-cash-money-executors-estate-net-worth-katherine-jackson-children-kids-home-repairs-creditors/)
Michael Jackson Estate -- Huge Financial Gains Revealed | TMZ.com (http://www.tmz.com/2011/08/24/michael-jackson-estate-the-bottom-line-reveals-a-bonanza-huge-financial-gains-debt-beatles-catalog-publishing-trust-borrowed-money-elvis/) :icon_rolleyes:
L.O.V.E.
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Sim - thank you for sharing those videos...for whatever reason I can't view the second one but the first one was great.
There is another video out there that talks about Michael's worth and it's phenomenal. It talks about Michael's ownership of high end resorts in Africa too. I would be willing to bet that Michael owns more property and has vested interests around the world than anybody every thought possible. What has always stumped me is why he would stay in motels, etc., when he had property around the world?
He's far more private about his business and while the media was so intent on exploiting his Beatles catalog and Neverland he was quietly diversifying. JMO. Maybe I'm too hopeful but I have never seen Michael a poor and desperate man.
Regarding his lips - I see letters too but can't make them out. To me it two of them looks like an L and an R.
That article is interesting because of the "7"s. Maybe I'm not counting this correctly because I still don't quite understand it but here goes and someone can correct me kindly.
(34, 700) 3+4+7=14 (7+7)
205,041 (2+5+4+1=12) (1+2=3)
2011 (2+1+1=4)
777 :smiley-vault-misc-150:
hesouttamylife - great post - thanks for sharing :)
Blessings
Yay - the smileyes came back and I didn't change any settings on my computer. Strange. I'm not big on smilieys but sometimes they are good for making a statement :bowdown:
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Great! Pay bills, his name is clean, everyone is happy. Come on Michael, we just need a big BAM! I have Chinese eyes looking at your lips :LolLolLolLol:
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People who know me from early hoax days know that I have had my concerns about Team Branca & McClain. So for that reason, I have watched them carefully. Every milestone they have made, they have kept the world informed. If they were not on the up and up there would have been no reason to do that. They didn’t have to. In doing that, I have become somewhat convinced if not entirely that Michael did purposefully re-hire Branca nearing hoax date because of his track record with him. Apparently Branca is no nonsense and he knows his stuff. And he is revealing Michael’s empire being reconstructed piece by piece right in front of our eyes. No barriers. I do have a strong feeling that once Michael’s books are clear and he is totally debt free, Michael himself will start removing the masks and revealing himself to our eyes. What a master he is! He would have to have thought this out start to finish perfectly in order for it to work in the time he allotted. Genuis! He is smarter than the average bear hands down :icon_e_ugeek:
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Do not believe in the supposed ruin of Michael
Me too :icon_razz:
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"Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune since the singer's death -- so much in fact ... it's nearly paid off $500 million in debt the King of Pop left behind when he died.
...that will be fully paid off by the end of the year..."
What if...by the end of the year all is cleared up and...and...BAM?
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for some strange reason, i think that he planned to fake his death to help pay for those debts that he had to boost his record sells because he knew that if he did that, people would buy his music.and he's planning to make a comeback to show that he's alive and well, and that he wants to continue his career and probably start making movies as well. so the dates of the comeback are probably part of the plan that he's going to come back when he believes that all of his debts have been paid off and that he gets better with his "drug addiction problem".
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"Michael Jackson's estate has made a fortune since the singer's death -- so much in fact ... it's nearly paid off $500 million in debt the King of Pop left behind when he died.
...that will be fully paid off by the end of the year..."
What if...by the end of the year all is cleared up and...and...BAM?
It does seem convenient that the time frame on the "debts" being cleared and the wrap up the hoax just so happen to coincide.
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Oh This is awesome I am so happy I love this thread thanks MaryK and thanks to all the members posting on here, you are making me so happy when I read your so positive posts I am feeling so good about this news that I would feel like flying , I love you Michael and I love you all guys thank you for making my day
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nRKCuB5xkK0/THVDXGerxHI/AAAAAAAAAeo/nh4aR1KTKcE/s320/kiss-smiley-flying-flying-kiss-love-female-smiley-emoticon-000518-large.gif)
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the picture is from the 2005 trial guys. 25M more! Bad25 should close it!
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for some strange reason, i think that he planned to fake his death to help pay for those debts that he had to boost his record sells because he knew that if he did that, people would buy his music.and he's planning to make a comeback to show that he's alive and well, and that he wants to continue his career and probably start making movies as well. so the dates of the comeback are probably part of the plan that he's going to come back when he believes that all of his debts have been paid off and that he gets better with his "drug addiction problem".
:icon_e_confused:
i dont think there will ever be a 'come back' and hate that phase because he never really faded away in order for him to need to make a come back. MJ was as strong as ever when he 'died' - this is not a come back, this is a take over.
yes financial benefits have definitely increased the estates wealth, but do not think this is the reason behind death hoax. simply a welcomed and well planned by product of a 'legend dying'. the reason 'why' is more deeper that this and is less about money and more about humanity and justice.
if MJ needed money, he would have toured with TII all around the world and made a huge packet. Look at London. 50 sold out shows.
regarding the movies... if you look closely at several movies mentioned throughout this forum, you might find MJ is already working in movies. perhaps not physically directing, but certainly influencing them with his creativity. too many coincidences and too MJ-ish for him not to already be involved on that scene...
re: the drug addict comment. perhaps i am reading your post wrong. so not going to comment before I understand what you mean properly. are you suggesting he needed this time away to recover from drug issues?
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Welcome FinalCurtain - and thank you for your comment! Yes, BAD25 should clear it up quite nicely :) Michael is brilliant!!
Blessings :)
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Welcome Final Curtain :bearhug:
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the picture is from the 2005 trial guys. 25M more! Bad25 should close it!
Yep - pretty sure BAD25 will make a massive packet of $$$.
Although I don't believe he was ever in "real" debt ever....it's a story made up for hoax purposes.....just like the cr*p about being a pain killer/propofol addict was made up for the hoax.
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Yeah just like all of us are in debt. Man if someone put a dollar sign on it, it could get scary. Mortgage alone.
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Grace,
Once again, I really love your take on debt; and when you look at that definition, both pictures of Michael end of being in "debt" are true-- I find this hoax is teaching me all kinds of things about persevering with seeming dualities until they disappear in one encompassing truth, and your comments about debt did it for me..... :bearhug: :smiley_abuv: :smiley_abuv:
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Sim - thank you for sharing those videos...for whatever reason I can't view the second one but the first one was great.
There is another video out there that talks about Michael's worth and it's phenomenal. It talks about Michael's ownership of high end resorts in Africa too. I would be willing to bet that Michael owns more property and has vested interests around the world than anybody every thought possible. What has always stumped me is why he would stay in motels, etc., when he had property around the world?
He's far more private about his business and while the media was so intent on exploiting his Beatles catalog and Neverland he was quietly diversifying. JMO. Maybe I'm too hopeful but I have never seen Michael a poor and desperate man.
Regarding his lips - I see letters too but can't make them out. To me it two of them looks like an L and an R.
That article is interesting because of the "7"s. Maybe I'm not counting this correctly because I still don't quite understand it but here goes and someone can correct me kindly.
(34, 700) 3+4+7=14 (7+7)
205,041 (2+5+4+1=12) (1+2=3)
2011 (2+1+1=4)
777 :smiley-vault-misc-150:
hesouttamylife - great post - thanks for sharing :)
Blessings
Yay - the smileyes came back and I didn't change any settings on my computer. Strange. I'm not big on smilieys but sometimes they are good for making a statement :bowdown:
I'm sorry the second link doesn't work for you..
try again with this one, it's down the page: Thriller 2 The Nightmare Begins Michael Jackson - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL49B5ED24441F6032&feature=plcp)
unless it's restricted in your country for copy right claims...
Do you have a link for that video you described? pls.
About your numerology calculations... interesting.... another set of 3 Sevens
Can you give me the exact quote ...I don't find those numbers... My eyes are tired...
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for some strange reason, i think that he planned to fake his death to help pay for those debts that he had to boost his record sells because he knew that if he did that, people would buy his music.and he's planning to make a comeback to show that he's alive and well, and that he wants to continue his career and probably start making movies as well. so the dates of the comeback are probably part of the plan that he's going to come back when he believes that all of his debts have been paid off and that he gets better with his "drug addiction problem".
:icon_e_confused:
i dont think there will ever be a 'come back' and hate that phase because he never really faded away in order for him to need to make a come back. MJ was as strong as ever when he 'died' - this is not a come back, this is a take over.
yes financial benefits have definitely increased the estates wealth, but do not think this is the reason behind death hoax. simply a welcomed and well planned by product of a 'legend dying'. the reason 'why' is more deeper that this and is less about money and more about humanity and justice.
if MJ needed money, he would have toured with TII all around the world and made a huge packet. Look at London. 50 sold out shows.
regarding the movies... if you look closely at several movies mentioned throughout this forum, you might find MJ is already working in movies. perhaps not physically directing, but certainly influencing them with his creativity. too many coincidences and too MJ-ish for him not to already be involved on that scene...
re: the drug addict comment. perhaps i am reading your post wrong. so not going to comment before I understand what you mean properly. are you suggesting he needed this time away to recover from drug issues?
.. :icon_arrow: i said comeback because jermaine said that he is the comeback king. and as far as the "financial" thing, i think that it's a part of it. i've looked at videos concerning his debt situation and how deeply in debt he was and how people were "trying to, or "were controlling his life". and the movies thing, yes, i know people have said that he's doing movies behind the scenes in different movies such as Megamind and Frankenweenie, and things in the movies seem really "michael-like" or whatever. what i'm saying, is instead of being behind the scenes, when he makes himself "not dead" anymore, he'll be able to freely direct films with his name as the movie director on the movies.
and as far as the "drug addiction" comment, i'm talking about what i've seen on different videos. people have said that he had a drug addiction problem, how he's used different aliases to get drugs.
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I hope he still has a cool $25 million left over to buy his dream home before BAM....Apparently, it is still for sale!!! And the price has been lowered to $16.5 Million....No-one has bought it yet....Maybe it is on hold for the king!!!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0MV7-pfqT8&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQbKYZWtpNQ[/youtube]
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Thanks guys, I didn't realize it was my first post - I've been reading here for months now. I too don't believe the debt story or the amount of it.
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sorry chicana, i disagree. completely.
a) i dont think he was in the debt that everyone thought he was in.
b) i disagee that 'people controlled his life' as he is incredibly powerful and calls the shots. Michael Jackson knows how to be Michael Jackson!
c) regarding this:
and as far as the "drug addiction" comment, i'm talking about what i've seen on different videos. people have said that he had a drug addiction problem, how he's used different aliases to get drugs.
i personally don't put a lot of weight to what is written about MJ and concerning hypertheical drug use. and if and i say IF it were true, then its really NONE of our business.
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and as far as the "drug addiction" comment, i'm talking about what i've seen on different videos. people have said that he had a drug addiction problem, how he's used different aliases to get drugs.
Assumption and hearsay....
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If Michael wasn’t in debt then what is the estate clearing up for 3 years?
I find it a great possibility that the people he had handling his finances and cutting deals became star struck and were not doing what they were hired to do losing sight of their job responsibilities and even dipping in and taking large slices of the pie for themselves. I believe they became jaded and just damn greedy. When I read about how deals were being made under the table and the fees his own people attached for providing services for these farces I can see how his debt could have become insurmountable without even his knowledge. The fees that his own people were attaching were stupendous :icon_eek: They saw money, probably more than they’d ever seen in their lives and seemingly lost all traces of honesty.
I do believe that Michael had sky high debt, not of his making even, but he wasn’t destitute. He only needed someone, apparently Branca, to go at it from a professional stance and tackle it head on and get rid of it and re-allign his finances to his benefit rather than the benefit of the hangers on. Now that that he has someone who is working out the mess others made by providing organization, structure and planning and really paying bills and making good sound financial decisions, Michael’s empire is growing and I believe it will continue to earn steadily. His children and the generations to follow them will have more than enough for as long as they live. Michael just did good business & TeamBranca has once again proven that to the nay sayers and the idiots who thought he had fallen and could not get up. Go Michael :beerchug:
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If Michael wasn’t in debt then what is the estate clearing up for 3 years?
...
This is what I meant when I said that there must be some sort of strategy involved to doing it this way. Legal reasons. Like Michael's way of continuing to do business after "death" or funding the hoax and those involved or something.
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I agree Andrea. Michael was an artist, first where business is concerned. He hired people to handle the other aspects of the business under the assumption that when people are paid for their services, they deliver the goods. Paying bills and making “sound” decisions were left up to those people. They just weren’t the right fit. Their loyalty didn’t match his. We can be assured that Branca saw through all the bull and knew obviously what Michael’s “business people" had been up to. He had done Michael proud before so I can see Michael going back to one whose reputation, dedication and action had been proven beyond any doubt, to pull things back together, get them back in order. And dammit he has done what many said could not be done. However, we knew better :animal0017: Michael as NEVER failed at anything. What made people think he would do it now? It simply amazes me.
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I'm not convinced about the estate managers. I believe they have been clever; in the past and currently... but I believe they have been necessary for what they are able to do; make money for the estate, which lines their pockets. So both MJ's and their interests are currently being served. But that just be a matter of tIME before uselfulness runs out....
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sorry chicana, i disagree. completely.
a) i dont think he was in the debt that everyone thought he was in.
b) i disagee that 'people controlled his life' as he is incredibly powerful and calls the shots. Michael Jackson knows how to be Michael Jackson!
c) regarding this:
and as far as the "drug addiction" comment, i'm talking about what i've seen on different videos. people have said that he had a drug addiction problem, how he's used different aliases to get drugs.
i personally don't put a lot of weight to what is written about MJ and concerning hypertheical drug use. and if and i say IF it were true, then its really NONE of our business.
you're not disagreeing with me, :icon_arrow: i think you're disagreeing with the people who made these videos. because i'm not the one that posted these videos up. what i've said is strictly based on everything that i've watched. and sure, maybe he wasn't in debt (just maybe), because we don't know what was going on for sure. michael planned his "death" for a reason, you don't just plan a death for no reason at all. there has to be something behind it. there's a video on youtube with a woman who was saying that he was afraid for his life. it was because of some guy that he thinks that was in the italian mafia, mr. tounche or whatever that guy's name is. the tapings might be old, but they seem like they could be a part of the hoax, which is why the audios have been used on those hoax videos. so..why if he was so powerful..why would he say that he was feeling afraid for his life and his children?why think of wanting to get a different bank account? and i'm not the one posting that he was a drug user on videos. others have posted videos of other people that have worked with michael, or have associated with him/ whatever have said that he had a drug addiction problem. so i wouldn't put it past me. doesn't matter if it's none of our business, this are things that people have added into their videos. so i really don't know why you're pointing the finger at me, when i'm just going by what i've observed and heard. they're posting this stuff. if you have a disagreement with anyone, it should be them. i just look at these things and think MAYBE it's true, i never once said that it was true.
maybe you're thinking oh.. well you should research for yourself, but i personally, don't have the time. i watch videos when i have time and i don't have much time to research. i'm working nowadays and most of my time is focused on doing just that now. so if i'm posting something up on here it's usually about something that i've seen on youtube.
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I'm not convinced about the estate managers. I believe they have been clever; in the past and currently... but I believe they have been necessary for what they are able to do; make money for the estate, which lines their pockets. So both MJ's and their interests are currently being served. But that just be a matter of tIME before uselfulness runs out....
I have certainly had my issues with the estate over the years. But now, I’m a bit at peace with them. For what they have done, they deserve to be paid handsomely. It’s the others who used Michael’s trusting nature to get over on him that I have problems with. Some of the need to be sued in court for return of monies received under false pretenses. It has taken me a long time to get here and I hope that I am not seeing things through jaded eyes now. I am still watching, however; and I only hope that their loyalty to the tasks at hand will not prove to be just another fallacy.
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If Michael wasn’t in debt then what is the estate clearing up for 3 years?
...
This is what I meant when I said that there must be some sort of strategy involved to doing it this way. Legal reasons. Like Michael's way of continuing to do business after "death" or funding the hoax and those involved or something.
Another way to keep talking about him.... :ghsdf: .....the film continues.... :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :michael-jackson: :icon_e_wink:
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sorry chicana, i disagree. completely.
a) i dont think he was in the debt that everyone thought he was in.
b) i disagee that 'people controlled his life' as he is incredibly powerful and calls the shots. Michael Jackson knows how to be Michael Jackson!
c) regarding this:
and as far as the "drug addiction" comment, i'm talking about what i've seen on different videos. people have said that he had a drug addiction problem, how he's used different aliases to get drugs.
i personally don't put a lot of weight to what is written about MJ and concerning hypertheical drug use. and if and i say IF it were true, then its really NONE of our business.
you're not disagreeing with me, :icon_arrow: i think you're disagreeing with the people who made these videos. because i'm not the one that posted these videos up.
aware that you didnt 'make' the videos. there are 100's of videos on YT that claim "the truth" when it comes to MJ, even some that are made by believers that are probably incorrect. video makers dont know entire truth. only MJ does.
he said is strictly based on everything that i've watched. and sure, maybe he wasn't in debt (just maybe), because we don't know what was going on for sure. michael planned his "death" for a reason, you don't just plan a death for no reason at all. there has to be something behind it.
money isnt the reason for the hoax.
there's a video on youtube with a woman who was saying that he was afraid for his life. it was because of some guy that he thinks that was in the italian mafia, mr. tounche or whatever that guy's name is. the tapings might be old, but they seem like they could be a part of the hoax, which is why the audios have been used on those hoax videos.
refer to tabloid junkie...
so..why if he was so powerful..why would he say that he was feeling afraid for his life and his children?
possible. it is possible he was afraid for his children. any celebrity of that stature would want to protect their children and ensure their security. but also just remember too, that not everything that comes out of MJs mouth is true. He plays the game too.
also, regarding powerful, have you ever seen some of the people MJ is friends with or has been associated with??
why think of wanting to get a different bank account?
if i had copious amounts of cash i'd be opening up swiss accounts too. many people with loads of $$ do it. also he may have been preparing and organising his fincances pre-death hoax. so that money is accessible after "death"
also as mentioned in the other conversations that are happening on this thread right now, some of his money handlers were dodgy. MJ had to clean it up and get control.
and i'm not the one posting that he was a drug user on videos. others have posted videos of other people that have worked with michael, or have associated with him/ whatever have said that he had a drug addiction problem. so i wouldn't put it past me.
chicana, a lot of people on the net claim to know michael, hell some even claim to BE michael. there are a lot of false claims of truth out there. example, there are videos out there that claim 'proof' that MJ was a pedo! (disgusting i know! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:)
doesn't matter if it's none of our business, this are things that people have added into their videos. so i really don't know why you're pointing the finger at me, when i'm just going by what i've observed and heard. they're posting this stuff. if you have a disagreement with anyone, it should be them. i just look at these things and think MAYBE it's true, i never once said that it was true.
i PROMISE you that i am not pointing the finger at you, i am encouraging you to be open to the idea that people who make the videos might not know completely what they are talking about. i dont have a disagreement with the people who make the videos as they have a right to their freedom of speech and i dont have a disagrement with you personally. i just believe there is more to the debt thing, i believe he is and was in control, and i dont believe he was a drug addict at time of 'death'
michael was always concerned about his health and body and treated it like a temple, especially as one gets older this becomes extremely important. he has had pain killer addictions in the past, but MJ wasnt the drug addict we read about in the tabs! remember this is a man who wants to live forever.
maybe you're thinking oh.. well you should research for yourself, but i personally, don't have the time. i watch videos when i have time and i don't have much time to research. i'm working nowadays and most of my time is focused on doing just that now. so if i'm posting something up on here it's usually about something that i've seen on youtube.
i understand what you mean about time being a precious commodity, i too am incredibly busy these days. so not reasearching is one thing, and i get it. but believing or accepting information based on what is on YT because its quick and easy is a one way ticket to being fed lies about MJ or anyone else for that matter. YT is an incredibly unreliable source. unfortunately for truth research is key and so is openmindedness.
again not attacking you, dont have issue with you, not disprespecting you or anything like that, its simply how i feel about the statements and opinions in your post which i am responding to with my opinion.
lets get this clear straight up, so there is no negitive emotion inferred to this. this back and forth isnt a fight, argument, or anything negative. its a positive exchange of opinions a mere conversation.
i respect your right to opinion, i just happen to disagree with it.
peace
:smiley-vault-misc-150:
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(http://i2.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/250/draft_lens18025666module150686949photo_1307499463debate.jpg)
Healthy Debate :)
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If Michael wasn’t in debt then what is the estate clearing up for 3 years?
...
This is what I meant when I said that there must be some sort of strategy involved to doing it this way. Legal reasons. Like Michael's way of continuing to do business after "death" or funding the hoax and those involved or something.
completely agree with this.
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If Michael wasn’t in debt then what is the estate clearing up for 3 years?
...
This is what I meant when I said that there must be some sort of strategy involved to doing it this way. Legal reasons. Like Michael's way of continuing to do business after "death" or funding the hoax and those involved or something.
completely agree with this.
Oh yes and you know..as they say:
Clever businessmen are always eager to contract debts
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I personally do believe in the debt story. I think being in debt was one of the reasons why Michael planned this hoax. I am a HUGE fan of him and I really look up to him, he is and will always be my inspiration, but I'm not going to fool myself or be biased and say that he was in fantastic shape for the past decade. I honestly don't think he was. Health wise, I think Michael was and still is great, as we can see in This Is It. However, money wise, I think Michael was in a lot of debt and in trouble. We all saw the way Michael spent his money in the horrible "Living With Michael Jackson" documentary with Bashir. BUT, I don't blame the debt on Michael. Michael's financial managers and lawyers should have been looking after him and his money. It's not Michael's fault he got in debt because he has people to tell him whether or not he's in good enough shape to purchase expensive items like the ones in the documentary. And even though Michael likes to hire the best of the best, I don't think the people in Michael's inner circle were there to help him and make sure he's okay. The people around him were money hungry and couldn't have cared less about the state Michael was in financially - as long as they got their salary they were happy. I honestly wish with all of my heart this wasn't the case because Michael cared and still cares about everyone with all of his heart and soul. But what I really wish is that the people in his inner circle were more caring and loving like he is.
I think once the Estate pays the rest of the $25 million, that will open the doors for the big BAM - if there even is a BAM.
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Iwantyouback - i do agree on the point that some in the inner circle were up to no good. MJ has spoken many a time about misplaced trust and greed. there were definitely ppl doing underhanded things and there have been for years.
i just dont think MJ was the weak helpless victim all the time. MJ is a control freak. he knows what he is doing and some of his antics are planned. again, only JMHO. i have no proof either way.
having said that, even the most amazing people can make foolish financial decisions. MJ is not immune to that, i know.
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Debt=wealth when you're in business. I think this is something most of us little people can't really comprehend. I understand the concept, but considering my economic class, the idea still freaks me out even though cognitively I know better.
Consider a mortgage. Buying real estate is generally considered an investment, even though you go into what could be called "massive debt". You figure a person who makes 50K/year being on the hook for 150k seems like quite a bit of debt, especially when after 30 years that 150k will be more like 225K with interest. However, in 30 years, that person can expect to sell that real estate for ~350K netting 125K out of the deal, accumulating wealth.
So you see, debt=wealth.
This is media spin to sell papers. Nothing more.
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Iwantyouback - i do agree on the point that some in the inner circle were up to no good. MJ has spoken many a time about misplaced trust and greed. there were definitely ppl doing underhanded things and there have been for years.
i just dont think MJ was the weak helpless victim all the time. MJ is a control freak. he knows what he is doing and some of his antics are planned. again, only JMHO. i have no proof either way.
having said that, even the most amazing people can make foolish financial decisions. MJ is not immune to that, i know.
Oh, I TOTALLY agree with you here! Don't get me wrong, I don't look at Michael and think that he is a helpless victim all of the time. You're totally right - Michael was a control freak and he called the shots almost all of the time. But I think when it comes to his debt, I think he was a victim in that specific case.
@Bec I do understand what you mean when you say that debt = wealth. But I think that's only in some cases. I was always taught that debt was a bad thing, and if you can't pay it off, you're kind of in trouble. Michael always said that no matter what he didn't want to be performing "Billie Jean" when he was 50 and that he just wanted to have a happy, worry-free life with his children. Why all of a sudden the change of heart? I personally believe that he wanted to do This Is It to pay off his debt, but then his life was threatened and had to do this hoax that was on the back-burner for a while. This is just my opinion though. Not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right.
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sorry chicana, i disagree. completely.
a) i dont think he was in the debt that everyone thought he was in.
b) i disagee that 'people controlled his life' as he is incredibly powerful and calls the shots. Michael Jackson knows how to be Michael Jackson!
c) regarding this:
and as far as the "drug addiction" comment, i'm talking about what i've seen on different videos. people have said that he had a drug addiction problem, how he's used different aliases to get drugs.
i personally don't put a lot of weight to what is written about MJ and concerning hypertheical drug use. and if and i say IF it were true, then its really NONE of our business.
you're not disagreeing with me, :icon_arrow: i think you're disagreeing with the people who made these videos. because i'm not the one that posted these videos up.
aware that you didnt 'make' the videos. there are 100's of videos on YT that claim "the truth" when it comes to MJ, even some that are made by believers that are probably incorrect. video makers dont know entire truth. only MJ does.
he said is strictly based on everything that i've watched. and sure, maybe he wasn't in debt (just maybe), because we don't know what was going on for sure. michael planned his "death" for a reason, you don't just plan a death for no reason at all. there has to be something behind it.
money isnt the reason for the hoax.
there's a video on youtube with a woman who was saying that he was afraid for his life. it was because of some guy that he thinks that was in the italian mafia, mr. tounche or whatever that guy's name is. the tapings might be old, but they seem like they could be a part of the hoax, which is why the audios have been used on those hoax videos.
refer to tabloid junkie...
so..why if he was so powerful..why would he say that he was feeling afraid for his life and his children?
possible. it is possible he was afraid for his children. any celebrity of that stature would want to protect their children and ensure their security. but also just remember too, that not everything that comes out of MJs mouth is true. He plays the game too.
also, regarding powerful, have you ever seen some of the people MJ is friends with or has been associated with??
why think of wanting to get a different bank account?
if i had copious amounts of cash i'd be opening up swiss accounts too. many people with loads of $$ do it. also he may have been preparing and organising his fincances pre-death hoax. so that money is accessible after "death"
also as mentioned in the other conversations that are happening on this thread right now, some of his money handlers were dodgy. MJ had to clean it up and get control.
and i'm not the one posting that he was a drug user on videos. others have posted videos of other people that have worked with michael, or have associated with him/ whatever have said that he had a drug addiction problem. so i wouldn't put it past me.
chicana, a lot of people on the net claim to know michael, hell some even claim to BE michael. there are a lot of false claims of truth out there. example, there are videos out there that claim 'proof' that MJ was a pedo! (disgusting i know! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:)
doesn't matter if it's none of our business, this are things that people have added into their videos. so i really don't know why you're pointing the finger at me, when i'm just going by what i've observed and heard. they're posting this stuff. if you have a disagreement with anyone, it should be them. i just look at these things and think MAYBE it's true, i never once said that it was true.
i PROMISE you that i am not pointing the finger at you, i am encouraging you to be open to the idea that people who make the videos might not know completely what they are talking about. i dont have a disagreement with the people who make the videos as they have a right to their freedom of speech and i dont have a disagrement with you personally. i just believe there is more to the debt thing, i believe he is and was in control, and i dont believe he was a drug addict at time of 'death'
michael was always concerned about his health and body and treated it like a temple, especially as one gets older this becomes extremely important. he has had pain killer addictions in the past, but MJ wasnt the drug addict we read about in the tabs! remember this is a man who wants to live forever.
maybe you're thinking oh.. well you should research for yourself, but i personally, don't have the time. i watch videos when i have time and i don't have much time to research. i'm working nowadays and most of my time is focused on doing just that now. so if i'm posting something up on here it's usually about something that i've seen on youtube.
i understand what you mean about time being a precious commodity, i too am incredibly busy these days. so not reasearching is one thing, and i get it. but believing or accepting information based on what is on YT because its quick and easy is a one way ticket to being fed lies about MJ or anyone else for that matter. YT is an incredibly unreliable source. unfortunately for truth research is key and so is openmindedness.
again not attacking you, dont have issue with you, not disprespecting you or anything like that, its simply how i feel about the statements and opinions in your post which i am responding to with my opinion.
lets get this clear straight up, so there is no negitive emotion inferred to this. this back and forth isnt a fight, argument, or anything negative. its a positive exchange of opinions a mere conversation.
i respect your right to opinion, i just happen to disagree with it.
peace
:smiley-vault-misc-150:
it seems as if every time i post something, you're saying "i disagree with this or that".. each time. the people that i have seen on those videos were his friends/associates/people that he dealt with. yes i've seen them. do i remember all of their names? no. money wasn't a reason for the hoax? why do you think the hoax came about? there's a reason. what do you believe he faked his death for? just to manipulate the media? i don't think it's just that. something else had to bring about the reason for faking his death. everything in tabloids aren't true either. he probably had a secret drug addiction problem. that guy with the last name ortega was saying that he didn't know that michael had a drug addiction problem, but he said that, he did. now. i'm under the impression (sometimes) that michael probably got a double to stand in for him sometimes in shows and his double (probably was taking drugs), which (probably) was his plan, to fake his death and make it seem as if he was on drugs and make it seem like that was the cause for his death. for what reason would he have fear for his children and his own life if there wasn't some reason as to why he'd want to move away to another place, so that he can be away from people, ect. why?
"chicana, a lot of people on the net claim to know michael, hell some even claim to BE michael. there are a lot of false claims of truth out there. example, there are videos out there that claim 'proof' that MJ was a pedo!" i never said that the people from the internet say that they know michael, i was saying the people that were working with him: example: ortega (was in a video claiming that mj was on drugs,may have been that other guy, they look alike to me (i don't remember who's who..) all i know is people were saying these things on those videos that he had a drug addiction problem. ortega or whatever the guy's name is said he was unaware of it, but he had a problem with drugs.
i understand that you think of it as a "healthy debate", but the debate shouldn't be with me. it's just what i'm thinking due to my observations on youtube and what people have said on their videos. i can't even rule out that everything on youtube is false either. (ex. the videos on the hoax forum in the media section- i've watched most of these videos before i joined this forum). the only thing that we all agree on, on this board is that we think or perhaps even know that mj faked his death.
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Iwantyouback - i do agree on the point that some in the inner circle were up to no good. MJ has spoken many a time about misplaced trust and greed. there were definitely ppl doing underhanded things and there have been for years.
i just dont think MJ was the weak helpless victim all the time. MJ is a control freak. he knows what he is doing and some of his antics are planned. again, only JMHO. i have no proof either way.
having said that, even the most amazing people can make foolish financial decisions. MJ is not immune to that, i know.
Oh, I TOTALLY agree with you here! Don't get me wrong, I don't look at Michael and think that he is a helpless victim all of the time. You're totally right - Michael was a control freak and he called the shots almost all of the time. But I think when it comes to his debt, I think he was a victim in that specific case.
@Bec I do understand what you mean when you say that debt = wealth. But I think that's only in some cases. I was always taught that debt was a bad thing, and if you can't pay it off, you're kind of in trouble. Michael always said that no matter what he didn't want to be performing "Billie Jean" when he was 50 and that he just wanted to have a happy, worry-free life with his children. Why all of a sudden the change of heart? I personally believe that he wanted to do This Is It to pay off his debt, but then his life was threatened and had to do this hoax that was on the back-burner for a while. This is just my opinion though. Not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right.
:th_bravo:
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as my post isn't being comprehended and is being misinterpreted i am going to quit while ahead as its clearly going in circles. emotion can obviously prevent objectivity! also it wasn't intended to be a negative experience. i'm done
@ bec completely agree with your last post. there is such a thing as good and bad debt, ie negative gearing etc. asset value exceeding debt amount etc. and yes sometimes difficult for us small fries to comprehend.
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I personally do believe in the debt story. I think being in debt was one of the reasons why Michael planned this hoax. I am a HUGE fan of him and I really look up to him, he is and will always be my inspiration, but I'm not going to fool myself or be biased and say that he was in fantastic shape for the past decade. I honestly don't think he was. Health wise, I think Michael was and still is great, as we can see in This Is It. However, money wise, I think Michael was in a lot of debt and in trouble. We all saw the way Michael spent his money in the horrible "Living With Michael Jackson" documentary with Bashir. BUT, I don't blame the debt on Michael. Michael's financial managers and lawyers should have been looking after him and his money. It's not Michael's fault he got in debt because he has people to tell him whether or not he's in good enough shape to purchase expensive items like the ones in the documentary. And even though Michael likes to hire the best of the best, I don't think the people in Michael's inner circle were there to help him and make sure he's okay. The people around him were money hungry and couldn't have cared less about the state Michael was in financially - as long as they got their salary they were happy. I honestly wish with all of my heart this wasn't the case because Michael cared and still cares about everyone with all of his heart and soul. But what I really wish is that the people in his inner circle were more caring and loving like he is.
I think once the Estate pays the rest of the $25 million, that will open the doors for the big BAM - if there even is a BAM.
:th_bravo:
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as my post isn't being comprehended and is being misinterpreted I'm going to quit while ahead as its going in circles. emotion can prevent objectivity and it wasn't intended to be a negative experience. i'm done :icon_rr:
fine by me...though i've read and "comprehended" what you've said... and posted more of what i've been thinking since the views of those videos...if you want to end the "debate"..cool. :icon_rr: :) :smiley-vault-misc-150:
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@ bec completely agree with your last post. there is such a thing as good and bad debt, ie negative gearing etc. asset value exceeding debt amount etc. and yes sometimes difficult for us small fries to comprehend.
Yep agree. When I said that I don't ever believe MJ was in debt I mean the type of bullsh*t debt those hideous tabloid vultures tried to portray him as having....you know the type where they said he was worried he would have to work at McDonald's to support his children because his debt was so great.... :icon_lol: :WTF:
Believing that and writing about it here is perpetuating the bullsh*t.......add to that the MJ is a druggie BS as well.
As for professional business debt, yes he may well have been in that type of debt in order to provide funds for other purposes or investments etc...I totally get that, it happens all the time in business.
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nobody knows what type of money problems michael had. he might have been in a bigger debt problem than we all think. were we working with him? did we control his bank account? did we know michael personally? bullsh*t? by far is this bullsh*t, it's only based from an opinion from observation from youtube. you can't bash someone for an thought that was originated from the making of a bunch of videos. it's not bull, when someone has an opinion about it. it is SAFE to say, that thoughts can be generated from those videos, some may go against, and others may agree because most of the things on the videos make perfect sense. that's why i believe what i believe, and basically, nobody can change what i'm feeling because we have different thoughts about what happened. there are no right and wrongs in this hoax. we're getting closer to the truth and in due time, it will all come out.
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:icon_eek:
anyways......
@adi and bec, here is an interesting unrelated fact. i just read that Trump was in 3.4 BILLION worth of debt in 94 yet remains one of the most successful business people on the earth. (wiki)
'debt' is such a overused loosely thrown around word especially when talking about big dollars and business. it doesn't factor in negative gearing, investments, revenue, residual income, projected returns, business plan etc. so to the untrained eye (regarding finance) reading about big debt can appear to be bleak when in fact it's positive steps towards excessive return. (providing that the venture pulls off without a hitch, which is where you have your risk analysts, etc)
only people with serious wealth can get into such serious debt. banks always ensure there is enough collateral before lending and financing projects / investments, etc.
i am HAPPY to be a small fry! :penguin:
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@chicana, all I'm going to say is please try and be open-minded - I don't think it wise to say things like "because most of the things on the videos make perfect sense. that's why i believe what i believe, and basically, nobody can change what i'm feeling". If this hoax has taught me one thing, it is to be prepared to change everything about what I believe and feel! And surprisingly that is ultimately very freeing.
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idc if you don't think it's wise to say it, if watching videos and that's all i have time to do and not sit here on the computer all day researching things on mj on news articles and such, then yes, it's perfectly fine to say this as i'm not really ever going to have time to sit here and read things when i have more important things to do. i make time to type on the forum, i make time to watch videos, and i make time to do my work and provide for my husband. we have lives. it's safe. if i have an "open-mind" and agree with everything that you all say and keep my thoughts to myself about what i've seen...it's like i'm being passive when i've sat here with my husband discussing what we've seen on these videos.
what was said on those videos DID make sense to me. i'm not biting my tongue or holding back my thoughts about it either.
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If this hoax has taught me one thing, it is to be prepared to change everything about what I believe and feel! And surprisingly that is ultimately very freeing.
@ curls...
perfection! very well said indeed. i personally learnt this when i came here a year ago, with my opinions and beliefs in tow. i had to *check what i thought i knew at the door* and i'm still learning this everyday, being humbled by learning new things. what i believed a year ago is completely different than what i believe today. and futher still, probably even more corrections and untruths need to be filtered out regarding what i currently believe. i take comfort in
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w467/greatebaybargains/truthwillprevial.jpg)
humility and open mindedness are key to understanding DH. arrogance can inhibit personal growth and understanding, not just with MJDH but also with life in general.
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@ IWantYouBack, i just picked up on this comment, i missed reading it before.
Michael always said that no matter what he didn't want to be performing "Billie Jean" when he was 50 and that he just wanted to have a happy, worry-free life with his children. Why all of a sudden the change of heart? I personally believe that he wanted to do This Is It to pay off his debt, but then his life was threatened and had to do this hoax that was on the back-burner for a while. This is just my opinion though. Not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right.
i am curious about your opinion. so do you believe that MJ intended to do TII concerts? (i personally believe there was no intention of ever doing the concerts, but i could be wrong and am happy to consider the alternative) i believe that the DVD was never concert rehersal recording, even though many people (doubles, singers, dancers, audo technicians etc, were employed to 'work' on such a project. i tend to think these people arent in on the hoax (most of them anyways) and that they thought they were participating in concert rehersal, when in fact they were really just filming TII. i believe that it was all for the DVD, not for a concert. again, JMHO i could be completely wrong. do you also think that the hoax was a fall back plan because of dollars or endangerment? i tend to think that DH is the master plan and has been since bad era, with a pointed start date, (being 25.06.09) with lots of preparation going into it years in advance. i personally doubt that DH was a plan there on the side, should he need to use it. also if he used DH because of being in danger, then why predict a BAM (TII, songs, family whispers, back, front, TS, etc) dunno, i strongly believe this. could be wrong and am happy to consider other alternatives, but right now i just don't see it being a fall back / escape plan.
i know this post is kinda off topic. and there are other threads dedicated to this, which i have read. but while we are at it quickly, does anyone else have an opinion on this? IWantYouBack, keen to hear your thoughts futher on this.
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:WTF: "arrogance" :icon_rolleyes: so, my observations and assumptions are being viewed as being arrogant? lol. every time i say i'm thinking or i believe, it's "i disagree..".. i dislike the word (so and so), and everything just totally bashing what i'm saying. nothing that i've said you've "agreed" with. ever since i've been on this board..you've put what i said before down as far as 2pac, dave dave or whomever i was talking about.. as far as what's been going on over the years with you, that's you. i just started on this hoax thing almost 2 months ago maybe 3 (not on this website, but as far as being more interested in the hoax and watching videos). who knows, maybe over time i might have different views, but seriously, right now, i'm not because i have no time for researching.i've said this from the start. i don't have alot of time to be on here researching. if everything that i say is being viewed as being arrogant, i should make the same observation and say that your views are being arrogant as well. i'm not here to cause problems, i'm only here to talk about mj and what i've observed..and alot of people on here are doing the same..i don't see where you're telling them you disagree and this and that. when it comes to me, it's the same old same old. :icon_arrow: :argue: :argue: :argue: :argue:
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:WTF: "arrogance" :icon_rolleyes: so, my observations and assumptions are being viewed as being arrogant? lol. every time i say i'm thinking or i believe, it's "i disagree..".. i dislike the word (so and so), and everything just totally bashing what i'm saying. nothing that i've said you've "agreed" with. ever since i've been on this board..you've put what i said before down as far as 2pac, dave dave or whomever i was talking about.. as far as what's been going on over the years with you, that's you. i just started on this hoax thing almost 2 months ago maybe 3 (not on this website, but as far as being more interested in the hoax and watching videos). who knows, maybe over time i might have different views, but seriously, right now, i'm not because i have no time for researching.i've said this from the start. i don't have alot of time to be on here researching. if everything that i say is being viewed as being arrogant, i should make the same observation and say that your views are being arrogant as well. i'm not here to cause problems, i'm only here to talk about mj and what i've observed..and alot of people on here are doing the same..i don't see where you're telling them you disagree and this and that. when it comes to me, it's the same old same old. :icon_arrow: :argue: :argue: :argue: :argue:
Chicana, you really need to change your attitude here. You have no time to research and only watch YouTubes? Then get off your high horse and respect people who HAVE been researching. I already crinched when I saw your introduction post, and I think that if you just want to wait for a bam instead of researching and interacting with members who do, you keep a lower profile. I have serious issues with your behaviour on here.
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:WTF: "arrogance" :icon_rolleyes: so, my observations and assumptions are being viewed as being arrogant? lol. every time i say i'm thinking or i believe, it's "i disagree..".. i dislike the word (so and so), and everything just totally bashing what i'm saying. nothing that i've said you've "agreed" with. ever since i've been on this board..you've put what i said before down as far as 2pac, dave dave or whomever i was talking about.. as far as what's been going on over the years with you, that's you. i just started on this hoax thing almost 2 months ago maybe 3 (not on this website, but as far as being more interested in the hoax and watching videos). who knows, maybe over time i might have different views, but seriously, right now, i'm not because i have no time for researching.i've said this from the start. i don't have alot of time to be on here researching. if everything that i say is being viewed as being arrogant, i should make the same observation and say that your views are being arrogant as well. i'm not here to cause problems, i'm only here to talk about mj and what i've observed..and alot of people on here are doing the same..i don't see where you're telling them you disagree and this and that. when it comes to me, it's the same old same old. :icon_arrow: :argue: :argue: :argue: :argue:
Chicana, you really need to change your attitude here. You have no time to research and only watch YouTubes? Then get off your high horse and respect people who HAVE been researching. I already crinched when I saw your introduction post, and I think that if you just want to wait for a bam instead of researching and interacting with members who do, you keep a lower profile. I have serious issues with your behaviour on here.
"Chicana, you really need to change your attitude on here.. why?" Why do I need to change my attitude on here when this is how I am. You cringed at my introduction, why? just because I said that I'm opinionated? Because I said I'm really busy and don't really have time to research?I'm not going to lie, i am. and people who don't accept that should get use to my ways, or ignore me (is that so hard?). if none you don't like what i have to say, ignore it. wow. as far as getting off of my high horses, honey, i'm not on one. i only gave my opinion about why mj was in *clears throat* debt, and the reason why he possibly faked his death. i'm not saying something is even wrong with the people who have been "researching", but to just keep going back and forth about my opinions about what has been said on youtube videos that other people have made, is ridiculous. i never asked anyone to debate with me about anything. i can't say anything freely without someone saying "i disagree" so on and so forth..seriously..a wait for a bam? i'm not just waiting on a bam.. i was wanting answers as well, and most of my answers have come in the form of youtube. people have different sources that they use, they use television, radio, newspapers, ect, why is it so wrong that i'm using my source as Youtube when this is all i have time to do when i have free time available? my profile is perfectly fine, but people seem to like to debate with me on here just because i said that i'm opinionated. let alone, you don't know how i am in real life. if you think that i'm "arrogant" or whatever on a forum, image how much worse it is outside of the internet. when people want to "debate" with me, that's what they'll get. you don't want a response back? don't say anything to me at all. >>
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i think that we've already cracked the code of mj being alive, i think all we've got to do now is wait until bam's day.
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i think that we've already cracked the code of mj being alive, i think all we've got to do now is wait until bam's day.
and?
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like i've said already, we've already cracked the code of him being alive. going back and forth about what i've seen on youtube is ridiculous. since the code HAS been cracked, it's time for people to leave it alone and stop with this "i don't think it was this" and " i don't think it was that" "i disagree", what's the point in arguing/debating with me when this stuff has already been publish for everyone to see on the interviews, news reports, ect. wait for the bam. the bam will come. if you all have been watching espirits videos and all of the other hoax related videos, they clearly say/point out that he's alive. all of this second guessing is just making it harder to focus on the fact that there will be something happening in the future. and people may even go back and say "he's not coming back..so on and so forth"..maybe not..but all we need to do is wait. making debates? c'mon...you watch youtube also, i just happen to watch it more than others because i'm a time saver. while on youtube i'm taking care of other things that i need to do. so if your quote is trying to idk contradict me in anyway, you can do better than that.
i'm not researching anymore.I came on here to share and/or discuss what I've observed mainly on youtube. my search is over. the supposed bam day is not far from now.
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Chicana there´s one thing that I do not understand about your attitude:
We´re on "Michael Jackson Death Hoax INVESTIGATORS" here....so why would you be on the forum if you don´t care about investigating/research?
To gullibly accept the opinion/idea that Michael wasn´t in control of his finances and his life means to do wrong by him and to totally underestimate his intelligence, sense of reality and business acumen (in my opinion at least...but I believe that there are quite a few members on here who think the same).
Forgive me for being so passionate about that but I am really, really fed up with all the biased assumptions, bashing and character assassination that has been happening throughout his life.
I feel that Michael deserves an unbiased and diversified approach.
As for the subject of this thread: this is million/billion dollar business. I highly doubt that any of us can truly comprehend what is going on behind the scenes.
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am sad as i can forsee this thread being locked and i am really keen to hear a reply from IWantYouBack.
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@Iwanyouback - I totally agree with you re; something going wrong (threatened) forcing the hoax to begin sooner than planned. I've voiced that same sentiment many times during this hoax and for the most part I still have that fear in the back of my mind. Though it might be totally wrong, it's what started me on this journey and it continues to haunt my every thought about it.
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Chicana there´s one thing that I do not understand about your attitude:
We´re on "Michael Jackson Death Hoax INVESTIGATORS" here....so why would you be on the forum if you don´t care about investigating/research?
To gullibly accept the opinion/idea that Michael wasn´t in control of his finances and his life means to do wrong by him and to totally underestimate his intelligence, sense of reality and business acumen (in my opinion at least...but I believe that there are quite a few members on here who think the same). :icon_rolleyes:
Forgive me for being so passionate about that but I am really, really fed up with all the biased assumptions, bashing and character assassination that has been happening throughout his life.
character assassination? take that up with the people who made those videos and the people that were in them. his associates/ people that he's worked with.
I feel that Michael deserves an unbiased and diversified approach. <- again, talk to the people who made the videos..
As for the subject of this thread: this is million/billion dollar business. I highly doubt that any of us can truly comprehend what is going on behind the scenes.
>of course not. nobody, NOT ANYONE ON HERE has any idea about what went on with his money. only michael and God knows. we all have a right to be entitle to our own opinion about things, i had an opinion about michael's "debt"<<problem being part of him planning for the death hoax and someone took it and just made a long drawn out thing saying "i disagree" this and that..and they're not thinking that i'm going to respond to any of it. why keep putting me down? am i really suppose to bite my tongue? :icon_rolleyes:
did i say that i don't care about researching/investigating? i said i don't have the time to do it because i'm busy with other things. i have a job, a husband, a home, a life to deal with. you think that i have time to sit on here wasting to dedicate all of my time to researching mj? the most i've ever did on research of mj is when i had a term paper when i was still studying in college about his behavior, why he was the way that he was, and what i think he would be diagnosed with.
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am sad as i can forsee this thread being locked and i am really keen to hear a reply from IWantYouBack.
lock it then. as i've stated before, if you don't want a reply.. don't say anything to me.
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not speaking to you chichana, i am speaking to the mods. i dont have power to lock, i'm not a mod.
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not speaking to you chichana, i am speaking to the mods. i dont have power to lock, i'm not a mod.
mods do what you got to do. i don't care if it does get locked. no debate should have been started with me, whatsoever.
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Please guys, let's get back on topic.
To those of you that think MJ faked his death in a hurry because of he was in debt, or being threatened, or whatever - how do you explain the fact that we are here, believing he is alive, after following-up and investigating 'clues'? I've said many times, but will repeat again, I think if he was in any danger he'd have picked a 'normal' death and we'd never have suspected a thing. After all, it's not just us, who wish him well, that are capable of picking up these clues, or reading here, or drawing their own conclusions. Haters surely know he's still alive as well. If safety was an issue, he wouldn't be basically telling the world he's still alive. JMO.
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@ curls, exaclty what i said too. why leave bam clues in lyrics, TII, front, back, TS. no this wasnt abt $ nor endangerment.
and thank you for bringing it back on track :bearhug:
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I don't see why the feeling that Michael's life might have been threatened before the hoax is considered "off topic". I still feel it a possibility. It's as valid a theory as anything else IMO.
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I don't see why the feeling that Michael's life might have been threatened before the hoax is considered "off topic". I still feel it a possibility. It's as valid a theory as anything else IMO.
no, it is on topic and up for discussion. some of us don't agree, but still up for discussion. i was more thanking curls for making a post about the subject at hand which steered away from the aggressive circles we have been in.
of course each to their own opinion re $ and endangerment. thats cool :icon_e_wink:
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Thanks @Aussie (-;
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No need for a lock, Chicana is on vacation for at least a week and maybe even indefinitely if she can't respect what we are doing here.
Ok, back on topic!
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Thanks Souza!
I don't see why the feeling that Michael's life might have been threatened before the hoax is considered "off topic". I still feel it a possibility. It's as valid a theory as anything else IMO.
@hesouttamylife, I obviously didn't make myself clear - your posts are most definitely on topic. :bearhug: Like Aussie said, I was just trying to get us away from the pointless arguing that was infecting the thread.
So tell me, because I AM interested in your opinion, (and in no way do I suppose I'm right about any number of things MJ related!) tell me why do you think, if MJ was threatened, would he leave clues to tell everyone he's still alive?
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meanwhile, the last 2 lines on reply #77 absolutely turn my stomach!
Hey IWantYouBack, we want you back, lol and look forward to your reply.
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asynchronous development
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Hello Curls - As I'm at work I can only make a quick reply w/o quotes. But in answer to your question, I think that the clues Michael left were not meant for everyone and I believe he knew that not everyone would follow them or pay any attention to them or us for pointing them out, dismissing everything happening right in front of their eyes. And judging from the millions who think we are insane, he was obviously right.
There were things that happened prior to the hoax but after the 0-2 announcement that made me very suspicious and afraid for him. When June 25, 2009 came I immediately thought someone had made good on their threats to kill him. However, the clues, that only few could see showed me otherwise. Thatis when I felt that he had outsmarted them and gotten away.
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Hey hes, how do you suppose that he planned this hoax for over 20 years and then just so happened to be threatened with his life so badly at exactly the right time for him to "disappear" just as he planned anyway? Convenient timing?
Also, I don't think Liberian Girl pics and references all over the memorial/burial are very subtle clues. That's pretty in-your-face if you know anything at all about MJ. I wouldn't drop that kind of blatant hint if my life were truly in danger, especially not repeatedly. There are no fun n games in the scenario you suggest and this hoax and it's clues are FULL of fun n games.
Also, if your life is in danger, who do you call... your Rabbi? Or the FBI? Come on.
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@bec, I respect yours and other opinions because no one is 100%. However, in my eyes, there were mitigating circumstances that could (and I stess could as I always have) have caused him to have to bring the full hoax into active mode a bit sooner than originally anticipated. Some of the things that we see as blatant and in the face clues are not thought to be by people who don't believe in the hoax. And as I stressed, those signs I believe were deliberate for people who knew in advance because Michael had disclosed and to people with an open mind and an understanding about Michael Jackson beyond the entertainer who would see the signs for what they were/are. To my knowledge, no one who believes that Michael died sees the things that we see, or if they see them they dismiss them as being irrelevant. So for those reasons, I don't see a big threat from people discovering anything.
I believe that Michael planned to escape so to speak for many years. I just think that near June 25 some things happened unforeseen that made his exiting become more serious. Monsters come out of nowhere sometimes.
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@ IWantYouBack, i just picked up on this comment, i missed reading it before.
Michael always said that no matter what he didn't want to be performing "Billie Jean" when he was 50 and that he just wanted to have a happy, worry-free life with his children. Why all of a sudden the change of heart? I personally believe that he wanted to do This Is It to pay off his debt, but then his life was threatened and had to do this hoax that was on the back-burner for a while. This is just my opinion though. Not saying you're wrong, and I'm not saying I'm right.
i am curious about your opinion. so do you believe that MJ intended to do TII concerts? (i personally believe there was no intention of ever doing the concerts, but i could be wrong and am happy to consider the alternative) i believe that the DVD was never concert rehersal recording, even though many people (doubles, singers, dancers, audo technicians etc, were employed to 'work' on such a project. i tend to think these people arent in on the hoax (most of them anyways) and that they thought they were participating in concert rehersal, when in fact they were really just filming TII. i believe that it was all for the DVD, not for a concert. again, JMHO i could be completely wrong. do you also think that the hoax was a fall back plan because of dollars or endangerment? i tend to think that DH is the master plan and has been since bad era, with a pointed start date, (being 25.06.09) with lots of preparation going into it years in advance. i personally doubt that DH was a plan there on the side, should he need to use it. also if he used DH because of being in danger, then why predict a BAM (TII, songs, family whispers, back, front, TS, etc) dunno, i strongly believe this. could be wrong and am happy to consider other alternatives, but right now i just don't see it being a fall back / escape plan.
i know this post is kinda off topic. and there are other threads dedicated to this, which i have read. but while we are at it quickly, does anyone else have an opinion on this? IWantYouBack, keen to hear your thoughts futher on this.
Hello! Thank you very much for your reply and your interest in my opinion, I really appreciate it. My answer to your question regarding This Is It is yes and no. I think in the very early stages, probably before Michael even chose the name for tour, he was definitely intending to do a series of concerts. I think Michael had a number of reasons to do these concerts, some reasons being more important than others. Michael said in so many interviews that he did NOT want to perform "Billie Jean" when he was 50 years old and that he just wanted to have a worry-free life with this children. This why I believe Michael's sudden change of heart was so odd. I think the main reason why Michael was intending to do a series of concerts was because he was in massive debt and somehow had to come up with the money and fast. But, I think the more Michael thought about doing the concerts, he thought of many other positive reasons to do the concert series. For example, while paying off his massive debt, he could show his children what kind of artist he was, and also reclaim the title of being the world's number one artist. Because even though Michael was and will always be the King of Pop, he wasn't on top of the current music industry in 2009, so I think that's another reason, while a very small reason, he wanted to do the series. I truly think the main reason was paying off his debt. So, I think in the early stages, Michael was definitely going to do the concerts. However, near the rehearsal period of This Is It, I think something happened. I truly believe Michael Jackson was threatened by someone and had to find another way to get the money he needed to pay off his debt, while still showing his children what he could do, and still reclaiming the title as the world's number one artist. And, I think the safest way for him to do this was a movie. So, I think once the dancers were chosen and Michael started "rehearsing", it was definitely a movie. But I do think the dancers and the rest of the This Is It crew are in on the hoax. In fact, Michael even admitted to Dieter that he was being threatened in those voice mails he left, remember? He said something along the lines of "I'm afraid for my life and for my children, we're being stalked, I want to be in a different environment". Even though those voice mails were left before This Is It, I still think Michael was being threatened by the time the world knew about Michael's This Is It tour.
So, in a nutshell: In the early stages of This Is It, Michael was intending to do the series. In the later stages, it was definitely intended to be a movie because Michael was threatened and could not chance doing a live performance because he could have been assassinated.
Also, I remember reading someone's post asking why we are here looking for clues if Michael was threatened and did this quickly. I will give my opinion on that as well in case anyone is interested:
I think Michael's life has been threatened many times since the BAD era when he began releasing more political songs (For example, Man In The Mirror, Heal The World, Earth Song, etc). So, since Michael's life was threatened already in the earlier years of his solo career, I think he has had this hoax planned and prepared for a long time just in case the death threats ever got very serious. I think the death threats got even more serious during and after his trial, so I think he was prepared to launch this hoax any day after his trial. Then, during This Is It rehearsals, I think the death threats got SO bad, he decided to put the hoax into action. Now, knowing Michael, no matter what the situation may be, he would want his fans knowing he's okay whether he was threatened or manipulating the media. And so, I think when he planned this hoax and put it on the back-burner in the BAD era, he made sure he had potential "clues" lined up for us.
As for the BAM, I personally have never really believed in the BAM. Since I believe he was still being threatened during This Is It rehearsals, I'm not quite sure if he will BAM because then he is back to square 1 being threatened again. I think he will only BAM if the coast is clear and all of his enemies are either locked up or out of contact with him so then they can't reach him or his family.
But again, just my personal opinion and view on the hoax. Not saying I'm right. :)
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If Michael wasn’t in debt then what is the estate clearing up for 3 years?
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This is what I meant when I said that there must be some sort of strategy involved to doing it this way. Legal reasons. Like Michael's way of continuing to do business after "death" or funding the hoax and those involved or something.
Another way to keep talking about him.... :ghsdf: .....the film continues.... :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :michael-jackson: :icon_e_wink:
exactly Blankie! lots of Michael related news in late time, it is good, it keeps people focused on him.
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So, then the estate is just rambling and telling lies about clearing up debt? Is this the theory? If so then I am thoroughly confused about all the kudos here for the estate at every milestone they report.
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@ IWantYouBack and HesOuttaMyLife.
thanks for your replies. i am at work right now and being sneaky on the computer forum (addicted much?) so cant read your replies thoroughly, but wanted to acknowledge your lengthy replies. when i get home tonight will read and reply. i am interested in reading your reasoning.
:smiley_abuv:
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Hey hes, how do you suppose that he planned this hoax for over 20 years and then just so happened to be threatened with his life so badly at exactly the right time for him to "disappear" just as he planned anyway? Convenient timing?
Also, I don't think Liberian Girl pics and references all over the memorial/burial are very subtle clues. That's pretty in-your-face if you know anything at all about MJ. I wouldn't drop that kind of blatant hint if my life were truly in danger, especially not repeatedly. There are no fun n games in the scenario you suggest and this hoax and it's clues are FULL of fun n games.
Also, if your life is in danger, who do you call... your Rabbi? Or the FBI? Come on.
Hi Bec, now that I’m home I can go into a little more detail and i can QUOTE :woohoo2: In answer directly to this question that I highlighted in red above, it’s Michael. He doesn’t do the conventional and he apparently is more spiritually than politically correct. I can honestly see him calling his advisor over law enforcement at least initially to get his or her input. Bsides, I don’t really think that Michael trusts the establishment after all he’s been through and I can understand that.
Let me clarify better what I mean when I say his life was in danger. When Michael was approached to do the 0-2 Arena concerts, I do believe that he intended to do the 10 shows. I really do. But I also think that he had a change of heart when they kept upping his commitment until it reached 50. Somewhere I read that he agreed finally to 31. If he did, I don’t think he did so cheerfully. However, in view of him having spoken on more than one occasion of someone or a few someones out to harm him, something occurred to me during this time that made me feel uneasy. During the time of all this planning for him to take up residence in London and do all these shows with millions of people in attendance, there was a pandemic outbreak of influenza being reported in London. They were in the middle of taking precautions to keep people away from crowded places where the germs could easily be carried and Michael whose immune system was already compromised, fit right smack in the middle of those more susceptible to acquiring this virus. Then the matter of the insurance policies with the clause specific to “if he dies during the contract” blah, blah, blah. Well hell, if it were me my first thought would be then why are you insisting that I go to live right in the heart of an outbreak of a pandemic that is relevant as we speak, when every one else is preparing to stay away' and not only are you adding shows but insuring me to the max should I “die” in the process? :icon_e_confused: I would wonder now, is this how you plan to get rid of me? Why are we not talking cancellation until further notice like after this thing or the threat of it has subsided?
The first case of the Avian flu in London was reported on April 30 2009. By June 5, there were over 100 confirmed cases and on June 11 WHO signaled that the first pandemic of the 21st century was underway. People were being advised to keep children home from school and for others who were most vulnerable to stay away from large gatherings. large gatherings :WTF: How much larger a gathering could there be than a Michael Jackson concert times 50?
One of the key mechanisms of communication used in London was the NHS London Noon Brief. This was first issued at 12.00 noon on 25 April 2009 as a simple, black and white Word document, to local NHS flu leads. Over the following weeks and months it evolved into a structured daily command and control document where new information and actions were clearly identified and the audience swelled to over 700 people across the NHS in London, partner organisations and wider stakeholders. Yet there was no slowing down or altering of any plans for Michael to go there with his children and live and breathe for months :icon_evil:
No one can convince me that the event planners didn’t know the danger associated with having Michael go to London during this crisis. And from what we’ve been told, some were mean to him and strong arming him which further exacerbates someone’s fear. Well mine anyway. There was mention that the footage used in This Is It was footage from rehearsals over the 3 days prior to June 25th. I have always believed that the practice held at the Staples Center on June 22nd was the big one; the one attended by security and other unidentified onlookers. This was reported by one of the This Is It dancers. AEG apparently was not willing to lose their money and would not release Michael from his commitment regardless of the threat that loomed in London. So he was packed I’ve heard and ready to roll. Well he rolled all right, :smiley-vault-misc-150: and the rest is History - past, present, and future.
I don’t have any proof of what or how Michael thought or felt. I’m basing all of this on what seems to me the natural thought process if it were me and I had felt threatened. Would I try to get out of it by any means necessary. Damn right I would. Don’t know if I’d have enough clout or money to fake my death but I know I could fake crazy :icon_lol: and they would be taking me out in a strait jacket.
I believe that not only was Michael concerned about his own health and well being, but also all those people, his beloved fans who would put themselves and their lives at risk just to see him. I don’t see him allowing that to happen. I believe that once this became a known pandemic, he decided to make his This Is It 0-2 Arena practice into This Is It the world renowned critically acclaimed masterpiece that it turned out to be. No one had to risk life or well being to see it. He gave it to us as a gift. So the hoax began a little early. I think... :icon_geek:
Now you can call me crazy, delusional, or what ever fits :LolLolLolLol: it’s okay. I’ve been called worse since I became a hoax investigator for this Michael Jackson Death Hoax. I’ve put on my rhinoceros skin and I can take it. So bring it on :michael_jackson-1135:
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Hey hes, how do you suppose that he planned this hoax for over 20 years and then just so happened to be threatened with his life so badly at exactly the right time for him to "disappear" just as he planned anyway? Convenient timing?
Also, I don't think Liberian Girl pics and references all over the memorial/burial are very subtle clues. That's pretty in-your-face if you know anything at all about MJ. I wouldn't drop that kind of blatant hint if my life were truly in danger, especially not repeatedly. There are no fun n games in the scenario you suggest and this hoax and it's clues are FULL of fun n games.
Also, if your life is in danger, who do you call... your Rabbi? Or the FBI? Come on.
Hi Bec, now that I’m home I can go into a little more detail and i can QUOTE :woohoo2: In answer directly to this question that I highlighted in red above, it’s Michael. He doesn’t do the conventional and he apparently is more spiritually than politically correct. I can honestly see him calling his advisor over law enforcement at least initially to get his or her input. Bsides, I don’t really think that Michael trusts the establishment after all he’s been through and I can understand that.
Let me clarify better what I mean when I say his life was in danger. When Michael was approached to do the 0-2 Arena concerts, I do believe that he intended to do the 10 shows. I really do. But I also think that he had a change of heart when they kept upping his commitment until it reached 50. Somewhere I read that he agreed finally to 31. If he did, I don’t think he did so cheerfully. However, in view of him having spoken on more than one occasion of someone or a few someones out to harm him, something occurred to me during this time that made me feel uneasy. During the time of all this planning for him to take up residence in London and do all these shows with millions of people in attendance, there was a pandemic outbreak of influenza being reported in London. They were in the middle of taking precautions to keep people away from crowded places where the germs could easily be carried and Michael whose immune system was already compromised, fit right smack in the middle of those more susceptible to acquiring this virus. Then the matter of the insurance policies with the clause specific to “if he dies during the contract” blah, blah, blah. Well hell, if it were me my first thought would be then why are you insisting that I go to live right in the heart of an outbreak of a pandemic that is relevant as we speak, when every one else is preparing to stay away' and not only are you adding shows but insuring me to the max should I “die” in the process? :icon_e_confused: I would wonder now, is this how you plan to get rid of me? Why are we not talking cancellation until further notice like after this thing or the threat of it has subsided?
The first case of the Avian flu in London was reported on April 30 2009. By June 5, there were over 100 confirmed cases and on June 11 WHO signaled that the first pandemic of the 21st century was underway. People were being advised to keep children home from school and for others who were most vulnerable to stay away from large gatherings. large gatherings :WTF: How much larger a gathering could there be than a Michael Jackson concert times 50?
One of the key mechanisms of communication used in London was the NHS London Noon Brief. This was first issued at 12.00 noon on 25 April 2009 as a simple, black and white Word document, to local NHS flu leads. Over the following weeks and months it evolved into a structured daily command and control document where new information and actions were clearly identified and the audience swelled to over 700 people across the NHS in London, partner organisations and wider stakeholders. Yet there was no slowing down or altering of any plans for Michael to go there with his children and live and breathe for months :icon_evil:
No one can convince me that the event planners didn’t know the danger associated with having Michael go to London during this crisis. And from what we’ve been told, some were mean to him and strong arming him which further exacerbates someone’s fear. Well mine anyway. There was mention that the footage used in This Is It was footage from rehearsals over the 3 days prior to June 25th. I have always believed that the practice held at the Staples Center on June 22nd was the big one; the one attended by security and other unidentified onlookers. This was reported by one of the This Is It dancers. AEG apparently was not willing to lose their money and would not release Michael from his commitment regardless of the threat that loomed in London. So he was packed I’ve heard and ready to roll. Well he rolled all right, :smiley-vault-misc-150: and the rest is History - past, present, and future.
I don’t have any proof of what or how Michael thought or felt. I’m basing all of this on what seems to me the natural thought process if it were me and I had felt threatened. Would I try to get out of it by any means necessary. Damn right I would. Don’t know if I’d have enough clout or money to fake my death but I know I could fake crazy :icon_lol: and they would be taking me out in a strait jacket.
I believe that not only was Michael concerned about his own health and well being, but also all those people, his beloved fans who would put themselves and their lives at risk just to see him. I don’t see him allowing that to happen. I believe that once this became a known pandemic, he decided to make his This Is It 0-2 Arena practice into This Is It the world renowned critically acclaimed masterpiece that it turned out to be. No one had to risk life or well being to see it. He gave it to us as a gift. So the hoax began a little early. I think... :icon_geek:
Now you can call me crazy, delusional, or what ever fits :LolLolLolLol: it’s okay. I’ve been called worse since I became a hoax investigator for this Michael Jackson Death Hoax. I’ve put on my rhinoceros skin and I can take it. So bring it on :michael_jackson-1135:
Thank you very much for elaborating on this!
I was wondering what you were aiming at, what your point was.
Now I get it. Sounds coherent in a way but:
May I ask how numerology fits into that concept in your opinion?
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Now Mary K…. you know that don’t do numbers with any precision. Remember, I was waiting for the numerology for dummies class someone was suppose to start on here :LolLolLolLol: I’m still waiting :smiley-vault-misc-150: :smiley-vault-misc-150:
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Initially Mary K, I thought that Michael had arranged to warn the Londoners not to take the vaccines. But the more I read up on what was going on in London during that time and how they were preparing, that theory changed. I just don’t think Michael was willing to risk his life, his family, his friends, or his fans to satisfy his concert promoters and/or their greed.
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Hi TMZ. Are you still watching us? 'Cause I see the 7-s in this article - they are for us, right?
If Mike was really in debt - I think it is hardly possible to generate so much income in 4 years to clear 500 millions. I don't see how....I think there are many lies when it comes to this supposed debts clearing.
JMO.
Oh...and hi TMZ.
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Hello Curls - As I'm at work I can only make a quick reply w/o quotes. But in answer to your question, I think that the clues Michael left were not meant for everyone and I believe he knew that not everyone would follow them or pay any attention to them or us for pointing them out, dismissing everything happening right in front of their eyes. And judging from the millions who think we are insane, he was obviously right.
There were things that happened prior to the hoax but after the 0-2 announcement that made me very suspicious and afraid for him. When June 25, 2009 came I immediately thought someone had made good on their threats to kill him. However, the clues, that only few could see showed me otherwise. Thatis when I felt that he had outsmarted them and gotten away.
@ hesouttamylife, thanks for getting back to me. @ IWantYouBack as well: I'm not convinced that MJ, or we, could know that only well-intentioned people, like us, would see his clues? Also, the meticulous planning over many, many years that is evident in all we have discovered shows me June 25th wasn't a rushed, or hastily changed or cobbled together excuse for a plan. This was, and continues to be, precise. That's why I don't share your belief, but you know I have no problem with you guys having it! Just different viewpoints. :bearhug:
Hesouttamylife, you also said: "So, then the estate is just rambling and telling lies about clearing up debt? Is this the theory? If so then I am thoroughly confused about all the kudos here for the estate at every milestone they report."
As has already been mentioned, there are many types of debt. It simply means owing someone money. It doesn't have to mean you don't have two pennies to rub together (which is the impression the media have tried to give about MJ). I don't pretend to understand the workings of MJ's 'estate', but can certainly see a scenario whereby all these millions that have apparently been generated since his 'death', are simply paying off legitimate debts, so that when he comes back he will owe nothing to no-one.
EDIT: Good to see you back Gina, hope you're feeling refreshed and batteries recharged!
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I thought it was reported a while ago that the estate made close to a billion???
Welcome back Gina.
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Hes, thanks for the reminder about the flue fears going on in 2009. I just feel it was just one of many synchronizing details going on at the same time as MJ's 'death'.
Iwantyouback
What about the fact that the Pepsi accident (start of so-called drug addiction) was to the day, half-way between MJ’s birth and ‘death’, 2982 days on each side of it, which equals 21 = 777.
You said you don't believe in a come-back or BAM.
Every great magic trick consists of three parts or acts. The first part is called “The Pledge”. The magician shows you something ordinary: a deck of cards, a bird or a man. He shows you this object. Perhaps he asks you to inspect it to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. But of course… it probably isn’t. The second act is called “The Turn”. The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you’re looking for the secret… but you won’t find it, because of course you’re not really looking. You don’t really want to know. You want to be fooled. But you wouldn’t clap yet. Because making something disappear isn’t enough; you have to bring it back. That’s why every magic trick has a third act, the hardest part, the part called “The Prestige.” What are the three parts of a magician's act? The Prestige, Return and what? - Yahoo! Answers (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080108051056AAq24tO)
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work, done. dinner, done, chores done. child in bed. been wanting to read this thread properly all day. now i have wine in hand and a quiet house :icon_razz:
i will prelude by saying, i completely respect others views and right to an opinion :smiley_abuv:
@ IWantYouBack. interesting perspective. thank you for explaining thoroughly your ideas on MJ potentially being threatened and prematurely bringing on the hoax to protect himself. yeah, i do disagree, but at the same time 'get' why you and others may think along these lines. i agree that he has made a packet since death, from TII as well as music sales and any other ways that the estate makes money. but i tend to think that this is just clever planning of the DH and that DH not only fulfils his beautiful agenda but also stands to gain financially from it. we know that michael is never motivated by money, yet is motivated by his utopian vision. so i believe his reason for TII and DH is not money. i personally believe he actually never intended to do the concerts. (again JMO, and i could also be wrong) rather, just act like it was going to go ahead. after death, not only has his DH meant that his 'takeover' goals are start to be achieved, but it is two fold and it is also bringing in some serious revenue, so it serves mutli purpose. which only highlights how carefully crafted and planned this thing was / is. i tend to think that while he was in "debt", remembering that that this word "debt" is very "convoluted" as discussed two pages ago, some of this is definitely 'good debt'
re bam: just curious as it is kinda hard to keep track of what everyone believes. re: Front and TS - are you follower / believer? again, not judging, just curious. because there is obviously many occasions where both (or perhaps they are one and the same) promise a bam. even putting those two aside if you are not a follower / believer, what are your thoughts on family members illuding to a bam, Jermaine, Latoya, Paris, etc.
regarding endangerment: i believe it was always prudent of MJ to be concerned about his safety. anyone of that stature / profile, would be wise to protect their safety with body guards, high security, doubles, security teams at school around house, etc. (and sadly, mostly from fans!) look at what happened to Diana, John Lennon, MLK, etc. i get what you are saying about this, trust me. but i just dont believe that this was the case around time of 'death' because he was doing other things that were not conservative if his life was really threatened at this point, such as, being photographed leaving a 'public' hospital, on 'chase' with TMZ, 'public' press conference, going too and from staples in car trips, etc, fans 'knew his routine' from carolwood to staples every night. these don't appear to be actions of someone threatened at that point in time.
i get though that some may have had a death wish on him. he goes against the grain and is loud and proud about his message of love and names and shames the greedy.
re: the voicemails, i think that his kids have been a threat since the day they were born, just as MJ is a threat since he hit fame. it comes with the territory of being a jackson. sometimes the threat of danger is from fans. i think that anyone that famous, constantly has a security risk attached to them. i dont think it was heightened at around time of death / TII, i just happened to think it was recorded and its the first time we are hearing such. famous people recieve death threats all the time. presleys, yoko, jacksons, etc. the list goes on. i sometimes also wonder if MJ here on voice mail was also giving out red herrings. but i honestly am not conclusive on what i believe abt the voicemails per say.
To my knowledge, no one who believes that Michael died sees the things that we see, or if they see them they dismiss them as being irrelevant. So for those reasons, I don't see a big threat from people discovering anything.
I believe that Michael planned to escape so to speak for many years. I just think that near June 25 some things happened unforeseen that made his exiting become more serious. Monsters come out of nowhere sometimes.
@ hesouttamylife, looking at this from your angle, that the people who believe MJ died dismiss clues as irrelevant or don't see them at all, so therefore if he was in danger these subtle clues at him being alive are not detremental. put all of these so called non detrimental clues he is alive to the side for a minute. say he was in danger and brought the hoax forward to protect himself from unforseen things. why then would the family have been acting the way they have, latoya and jermaine talking about seeking justice within days of his death. why the crazy death bed. corpse sitting up. MJ jupming out of a van (for those that believe MJ had a hand in this) why release TII? why unveil your children if endangerment was an issue? even aside the "clues" there are lots of things that happened that would be inappropriate if MJ was trying to protect himself from danger, yet he allowed them in fact initiated some of the "crazy" after he died. family doing crazy and emotive interviews about revenge / justice, children being unveiled and allowed to go out into sociotey, public places, etc etc could have been controlled and ceased by him if he so wished, instead these things drew attention to the jackson family, in a way like there hasnt been attention before. i don't know if he would be doing / allowing these things if there was a serious threat at hand.
So, then the estate is just rambling and telling lies about clearing up debt? Is this the theory? If so then I am thoroughly confused about all the kudos here for the estate at every milestone they report.
again us 'small fries' are taking the word "debt" too literally. like, MJ had X debt but then not factoring in the positive that was associated with that debt. so really its only a half statement, because he may have X debt, but then XX in retractable income that is generated from that debt. think about it. he planned DH so it would appear that he died suddenly. literally rehearsing one day, dead the next. he had to leave things open ended as though death was sudden, real, unplanned and unforseen. he probably also cyphened much liquid cash before DH so to leave these massive ebbs of debt. a) something to fill with the expected revenue he would make as a 'dead legend' and b) also to ensure he had funds at his disposal post death. if all of his investments, debts, loans, whatevers were all neat before he died this would look odd. i also believe that the boasting of the estate about how much his debts have cleared, is also a but about MJ saying "look how much i can sell / make and i am not even alive, not even currently working for it" it shows, he may not be number one in the charts currently, but actually still on top.
re: the flu outbreak. i have to say that i dont know enough about this to comment, so i take on the information you provided. thank you.
to anyone: did i read somewhere on forum, that the heights that MJ took TII to, if it were a concert, it would have been running at a loss because it was so grandiose. not sure if that is fact or fiction. wasnt there also suggestions that they wouldnt have got the stage and equip to london on time? and the obvious, why practice in staples, if doing it in london. i know rehashing oldies here. but combined with other things i have menioned throughout this post, make me believe it was all for DVD / movie purposes. in addition, ultimately i don't believe that DH was designed because he needed the money and i dont agree that MJs debt issues that the press talk about, were as dire as they were suggesting.
i do believe though, that MJ would have caclulated and estimated what kind of return he would recieve post "death"
Luke 14:28, 29 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him - King James Version.
just want to say :th_bravo: to the majority on this thread. the last few pages (less a few negative comments) are proof that we can disagree yet still respect each others opinion.
:bearhug:
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actually MJonmind. the 777 point you threw in there is valid to my argument too. had to be planned to the date to satisfy the numbers game
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Excellent synopsis, Aussie.
wasnt there also suggestions that they wouldnt have got the stage and equip to london on time? and the obvious, why practice in staples, if doing it in london.
Yes, I don't recall the exact dates but if they had the Staples booked through 7/7, which conveniently allowed the memorial to be held there, and the first show was scheduled for the 14th in London, when exactly did they plan to knock everything down, ship to London, set up, and still have enough time to rehearse on location prior to opening night? No time, not feasible, too tight a window. What if some part of the stage or props were damaged in transit? What would they do then? I don't think any professional in the entertainment field would set themselves up for such potential disaster with so much on the line.
The secondary line of questions begged from this direction of thought is this; why set up such an elaborate set in LA in the first place if you're preparing to do a concert series in London? Why wait til the very last minute before moving to location? And further down this road of logic, why did MJ come back to LA anyway? It's not like he had such good memories of the area, it's not like he had his own home there. It's not as though he had been treated SO WELL in the US all those years. Why in the world did MJ even return to the States much less LA county at ALL? He had been living (presumably) happily and peacefully in Ireland post-2005, then ends up with an alleged deal for a concert series in London... I fail to see the reasoning to return to the US much less LA for any reason just to jettison off across the pond again, on some break neck, down-to-the-wire schedule no less.
And to go even further, if MJ really WAS in debt, all he had to do was release a new album, release a concert DVD, sell some memorabilia, make a paid appearance or two, sell an interview or several, do the J5 reunion concert his brothers and assorted producers were allegedly clamoring for, etc. He had no reason to set off on some crazy concert series performance schedule to make money. That doesn't make sense. Sounds to me like the most work for the least return of all his options.
BUT
It also sounds like the project that would generate the most media attention as well... AND have everyone WAITING for what was COMING NEXT.
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You know bec, when you look at it from this perspective re: LA versus London for rehearsals with all the props, etc. , this was puzzling to me. It made no sense at all to me; however, I thought that perhaps I just didn't know how it works. In thinking back to other big concerts that have been held in my city, none of them were set up for practice prior to the artist's appearance. But that's a bit different because those shows were for 1 or 2 days. I'm sure they practiced somewhere, possibly in a studio. However, it makes sense that when you are going to be in residence, you'd set up there. It just seemed odd and made no sense for the elaborate set-up in LA... unless of course it was for a movie... or something (-:
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Excellent synopsis, Aussie.
wasnt there also suggestions that they wouldnt have got the stage and equip to london on time? and the obvious, why practice in staples, if doing it in london.
Yes, I don't recall the exact dates but if they had the Staples booked through 7/7, which conveniently allowed the memorial to be held there, and the first show was scheduled for the 14th in London, when exactly did they plan to knock everything down, ship to London, set up, and still have enough time to rehearse on location prior to opening night? No time, not feasible, too tight a window. What if some part of the stage or props were damaged in transit? What would they do then? I don't think any professional in the entertainment field would set themselves up for such potential disaster with so much on the line.
Neither the costumes nor the dancers nor the stage were ready for London in June 2009.
The proposed tour plan did not fit the real events at O2.
Madonna's 'STICKY & SWEET TOUR' concerts were scheduled on July 4 and 5 and Michael's tour was scheduled to start on July 8 (later postponed to July 13: http://http://www.michaeljacksonlive.com/refunds.php (http://http://www.michaeljacksonlive.com/refunds.php)).
It took 3 days to get Madonna's stage up (http://http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1490246.php/Madonna_s_Marseille_show_fatality_show_canceled (http://http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1490246.php/Madonna_s_Marseille_show_fatality_show_canceled)) and 2 days to get the stage down.
Nine Inch Nails were scheduled at O2 on July 15.
Michael was scheduled on July 16.
Can we assume that Michael would have had a stage smaller than Madonna's or that he would have authorized to have Nine Inch Nails use his MJ stage for not to have to take it down and put it up again over night?
[...]
London concerts were never meant to be.
The secondary line of questions begged from this direction of thought is this; why set up such an elaborate set in LA in the first place if you're preparing to do a concert series in London? Why wait til the very last minute before moving to location? And further down this road of logic, why did MJ come back to LA anyway? It's not like he had such good memories of the area, it's not like he had his own home there. It's not as though he had been treated SO WELL in the US all those years. Why in the world did MJ even return to the States much less LA county at ALL? He had been living (presumably) happily and peacefully in Ireland post-2005, then ends up with an alleged deal for a concert series in London... I fail to see the reasoning to return to the US much less LA for any reason just to jettison off across the pond again, on some break neck, down-to-the-wire schedule no less.
Only in the U.S. and only in CA the preconditions and environment would be found to support the hoax initialization. The ground for a house must be rock you need to know inside out to use it fruitfully in your construction.
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Agreed, Grace. The logic points only to hoax.
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[...]
We all saw the way Michael spent his money in the horrible "Living With Michael Jackson" documentary with Bashir. BUT, I don't blame the debt on Michael.
[...]
JMO that documentary is a hoax in itself. I think Michael was acting BIIG time in that doco and leaving clues behind...
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@ bec completely agree with your last post. there is such a thing as good and bad debt, ie negative gearing etc. asset value exceeding debt amount etc. and yes sometimes difficult for us small fries to comprehend.
Yep agree. When I said that I don't ever believe MJ was in debt I mean the type of bullsh*t debt those hideous tabloid vultures tried to portray him as having....you know the type where they said he was worried he would have to work at McDonald's to support his children because his debt was so great.... :icon_lol: :WTF:
Believing that and writing about it here is perpetuating the bullsh*t.......add to that the MJ is a druggie BS as well.
As for professional business debt, yes he may well have been in that type of debt in order to provide funds for other purposes or investments etc...I totally get that, it happens all the time in business.
+ 1 here! :icon_e_wink:
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@Iwanyouback - I totally agree with you re; something going wrong (threatened) forcing the hoax to begin sooner than planned. I've voiced that same sentiment many times during this hoax and for the most part I still have that fear in the back of my mind. Though it might be totally wrong, it's what started me on this journey and it continues to haunt my every thought about it.
@hesouttamylife: you know I've been thinking about how many MIRRORed/Reversed/BACKwards - clues we've seen in this hoax...and just very recently, noticing all these 25 - references we've had with BAD and everything... this idea came to me... if the hoax had started one year later on June 25th, 2010...that would've meant Michael "died" at 52 --> reverse of 25.
But then I immediately rejected the idea of a hoax started too quickly, when I remembered all TS-posts and numerology.... nothing would have fit into the Numbers theory then!
Sorry for the OFF-topic, just random thoughts... seeing your comments ^^
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[...]
I believe that Michael planned to escape so to speak for many years. I just think that near June 25 some things happened unforeseen that made his exiting become more serious. Monsters come out of nowhere sometimes.
I am answering now regarding all the previous comments about the death threats.
- I believe Michael and his family have received all kinds of threats ever since the boys were young and singing in the Jackson5.
- I also believe that the bigger Michael became (age & fame) , the more threats he received.
Probably this was one of the many reasons why he started so early (20 years ago) to plan a HOAX.
- In my opinion, THREATS (of all sorts) have always been, sadly, unfortunately, a part of Michael's life!!
- After the Pepsi burn and then starting with BAD, when he began sending subtle messages to TPTB through ingenious symbolism hidden in his lyrics, album covers, clothing, etc... that's when the threats got more and more serious.
- I also think that after "they" failed to put him in jail for the "alleged child abuse" back in 2005, their final option to destroy him was to arrange a "little accident" for him. So probably the death threats multiplied after 2005 and Michael was always 2-3 steps ahead of them, just like a in a chess game, because he had prepared his escape for years in advance and "they" didn't have a clue about that!! "they" never knew he always had a "plan B".
- Regarding DEBT: he might have had certain debts (like any business man! and as maryK said, when we're talking about millions/billions of dollars, you just never know what goes behind the curtains!) ; I think Michael purposely made those debts he might have had look worse than they really were in fact ... and he did that to BAIT them! Thus, he purposely made himself look weak, in debt, ill and everything... When your enemy underestimates you, this gives you an advantage in Front of him! this helps you "surprise" in Force your enemy when "they" least expect it! this gives you those 2 steps ahead of them! I think that's the whole idea around the spreading of this rumors about Michael's debts! I think it's all part of HIS plan.
Regarding examples of the death threats that Michael had received (at least those that I could find during my research), I posted some stuff on this thread too, for those interested: read starting with reply # 13 ---> MJ & Elvis - Death Threats - FBI files (Witness Protection Program?) (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=21589.0)
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[...]
We all saw the way Michael spent his money in the horrible "Living With Michael Jackson" documentary with Bashir. BUT, I don't blame the debt on Michael.
[...]
JMO that documentary is a hoax in itself. I think Michael was acting BIIG time in that doco and leaving clues behind...
Off topic, (sorry), but what do you make of the part where MJ was feeding baby Blanket? Acting then also? To what end? He looked like a nervous, clumsy, first-timer. That part always did, and still does, make me feel really uncomfortable.
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[. . . ]
Let me clarify better what I mean when I say his life was in danger. When Michael was approached to do the 0-2 Arena concerts, I do believe that he intended to do the 10 shows. I really do. But I also think that he had a change of heart when they kept upping his commitment until it reached 50. Somewhere I read that he agreed finally to 31. If he did, I don’t think he did so cheerfully. However, in view of him having spoken on more than one occasion of someone or a few someones out to harm him, something occurred to me during this time that made me feel uneasy. During the time of all this planning for him to take up residence in London and do all these shows with millions of people in attendance, there was a pandemic outbreak of influenza being reported in London. They were in the middle of taking precautions to keep people away from crowded places where the germs could easily be carried and Michael whose immune system was already compromised, fit right smack in the middle of those more susceptible to acquiring this virus. Then the matter of the insurance policies with the clause specific to “if he dies during the contract” blah, blah, blah. Well hell, if it were me my first thought would be then why are you insisting that I go to live right in the heart of an outbreak of a pandemic that is relevant as we speak, when every one else is preparing to stay away' and not only are you adding shows but insuring me to the max should I “die” in the process? :icon_e_confused: I would wonder now, is this how you plan to get rid of me? Why are we not talking cancellation until further notice like after this thing or the threat of it has subsided?
The first case of the Avian flu in London was reported on April 30 2009. By June 5, there were over 100 confirmed cases and on June 11 WHO signaled that the first pandemic of the 21st century was underway. People were being advised to keep children home from school and for others who were most vulnerable to stay away from large gatherings. large gatherings :WTF: How much larger a gathering could there be than a Michael Jackson concert times 50?
One of the key mechanisms of communication used in London was the NHS London Noon Brief. This was first issued at 12.00 noon on 25 April 2009 as a simple, black and white Word document, to local NHS flu leads. Over the following weeks and months it evolved into a structured daily command and control document where new information and actions were clearly identified and the audience swelled to over 700 people across the NHS in London, partner organisations and wider stakeholders. Yet there was no slowing down or altering of any plans for Michael to go there with his children and live and breathe for months :icon_evil:
No one can convince me that the event planners didn’t know the danger associated with having Michael go to London during this crisis. And from what we’ve been told, some were mean to him and strong arming him which further exacerbates someone’s fear. Well mine anyway. There was mention that the footage used in This Is It was footage from rehearsals over the 3 days prior to June 25th. I have always believed that the practice held at the Staples Center on June 22nd was the big one; the one attended by security and other unidentified onlookers. This was reported by one of the This Is It dancers. AEG apparently was not willing to lose their money and would not release Michael from his commitment regardless of the threat that loomed in London. So he was packed I’ve heard and ready to roll. Well he rolled all right, :smiley-vault-misc-150: and the rest is History - past, present, and future.
I don’t have any proof of what or how Michael thought or felt. I’m basing all of this on what seems to me the natural thought process if it were me and I had felt threatened. Would I try to get out of it by any means necessary. Damn right I would. Don’t know if I’d have enough clout or money to fake my death but I know I could fake crazy :icon_lol: and they would be taking me out in a strait jacket.
I believe that not only was Michael concerned about his own health and well being, but also all those people, his beloved fans who would put themselves and their lives at risk just to see him. I don’t see him allowing that to happen. I believe that once this became a known pandemic, he decided to make his This Is It 0-2 Arena practice into This Is It the world renowned critically acclaimed masterpiece that it turned out to be. No one had to risk life or well being to see it. He gave it to us as a gift. So the hoax began a little early. I think... :icon_geek: [....]
Excellent post! :th_bravo:
Now you can call me crazy, delusional, or what ever fits :LolLolLolLol: it’s okay. I’ve been called worse since I became a hoax investigator for this Michael Jackson Death Hoax. I’ve put on my rhinoceros skin and I can take it. So bring it on :michael_jackson-1135:
lolll :icon_lol:
You're definitely NOT crazy!!
You have a brilliant mind!
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[...]
We all saw the way Michael spent his money in the horrible "Living With Michael Jackson" documentary with Bashir. BUT, I don't blame the debt on Michael.
[...]
JMO that documentary is a hoax in itself. I think Michael was acting BIIG time in that doco and leaving clues behind...
Off topic, (sorry), but what do you make of the part where MJ was feeding baby Blanket? Acting then also? To what end? He looked like a nervous, clumsy, first-timer. That part always did, and still does, make me feel really uncomfortable.
I don't know... When I first saw that it made me feel the same way!
But then I thought of all the times Michael took a baby in his arms! Michael KNEW how to hold a baby! He knew how to feed and change them.
Blanket wasn't his first child anyway! He had Prince and Paris and we all see the videos where he holds them or feeds them... etc...
So I definitely reject the idea of that scene being explained as "Michael the first-timer/inexperienced father".
There's something OFF with that scene, I agree with you! And I can't really put my finger on what exactly. But my guess would be that it has to be related to the tabloids spreading those ridiculous mockeries about Michael holding Blanket in that Berlin balcony! it was that period of time!
1. Either he was extremely irritated, lost his temper or something....
OR
2. He purposely "echoed" the tabloid speculations of him not being able to hold his child properly,he gave them what they wanted... "a caricature of himself" something of the sort... I don't know!
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...... Michael KNEW how to hold a baby! He knew how to feed and change them.
Blanket wasn't his first child anyway! He had Prince and Paris and we all see the videos where he holds them or feeds them... etc...
Exactly, of course he was experienced with babies, so he must've deliberately made that scene troubling for the viewer. (I still don't like it though.)
Sorry mods, for taking this briefly off topic - I'm done now!
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i personally believe he actually never intended to do the concerts. (again JMO, and i could also be wrong) rather, just act like it was going to go ahead.
I definitely see what you're getting at and I respect your opinion. But, the only thing that bothers me with this point of view is the dancers. Let's say for a minute that you're correct and that this is what Michael planned. You see at the beginning of This Is It that the dancers are in tears because they have almost realized their dream which was to perform live alongside Michael. Knowing how loving Michael is, and knowing how much he cares about the people of our world, why would Michael not allow for their dream to come true? Why would Michael tell them that he is looking for dancers to perform in front of live audiences with knowing that it wasn't going to happen? I think that would be a little cruel, unless the dancers were in on it and were doing some pretty incredible acting in the first scenes of This Is It. And although the issue with the dancers is my main complaint about this point of view that you have, the same goes for Kenny Ortega, the background singers, and especially the costume designers. In the This Is It credits, you see that Zaldi is creating a spectacular outfit for Michael by HAND. Michael put him to work on this knowing it was never going to happen - that just doesn't sound like something Michael would do. But, as I said before, every person involved in This Is It could be in on it, but it's unlikely in my opinion.
re bam: just curious as it is kinda hard to keep track of what everyone believes. re: Front and TS - are you follower / believer? again, not judging, just curious. because there is obviously many occasions where both (or perhaps they are one and the same) promise a bam. even putting those two aside if you are not a follower / believer, what are your thoughts on family members illuding to a bam, Jermaine, Latoya, Paris, etc.
Regarding Front and TS, I truly believe that no matter what, you can't trust everybody to the fullest. I WANT to believe that Front is Michael and/or that TS and Front know for sure that Michael is going to BAM, but I just don't know for sure and therefore I can't trust them fully. I'm not saying they're wrong, I'm just saying that they haven't given me enough to make me fully believe in what they're saying. If Front posted up a picture of Michael unedited - a picture we have never, ever seen before with a sentence like "See guys? I'm Michael! You have to believe me! And to make you believe me, I will tell you something about Jermaine no one else knows! *Insert shocking Jermaine secret here*" then I would gain more belief, but that hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.
Regarding Jermaine, Latoya, Paris and the rest of the clues given by people in Michael's inner circle, while they are interesting, I don't think they all point to a BAM - I think they more or less point to Michael being alive, but not a for sure comeback. For example, when Latoya told all of us to watch "The Illusionist", I watched it, but at the end, we see Eisenheim living a happy life with his lover without coming back to being the world's greatest illusionist. That clue, in my opinion, points to Michael being alive, but does not point to a BAM.
And I apologize, but I think I used the wrong choice of words when I said "I don't really believe in the BAM". If I may, I'd like to rephrase that to "I'm not quite sure if I believe in the BAM". The reason why I'm not sure if I believe in the BAM is because no one will ever know for sure what Michael has in mind. We aren't psychics or mentalists. In my opinion, we're fans who have found a bunch of interesting clues that we can only hope point to a BAM. The only one who knows if there will be a BAM or not is Michael.
regarding endangerment: i believe it was always prudent of MJ to be concerned about his safety. anyone of that stature / profile, would be wise to protect their safety with body guards, high security, doubles, security teams at school around house, etc. (and sadly, mostly from fans!) look at what happened to Diana, John Lennon, MLK, etc. i get what you are saying about this, trust me. but i just dont believe that this was the case around time of 'death' because he was doing other things that were not conservative if his life was really threatened at this point, such as, being photographed leaving a 'public' hospital, on 'chase' with TMZ, 'public' press conference, going too and from staples in car trips, etc, fans 'knew his routine' from carolwood to staples every night. these don't appear to be actions of someone threatened at that point in time.
I do agree that Michael has probably always been receiving death threats ever since he became famous with the Jackson 5. But just because Michael has received many in his life time doesn't mean that any of them should be taken lightly. Also, the level of severity for a death threat changes depending on whom it's from. When Michael was in the Jackson 5, the death threat could have been from a friend at his old school who is simply jealous of Michael's fame. But, when Michael was older, let's say for example his late 30's, it could have been from the Illuminati, the Mafia, or even AEG who is strictly against Michael's message and what he stands for. I think when someone receives threats that are this severe, then heavy action MUST be taken, no matter how many he has received in his life time. Also, as I stated in my earlier post, I think the threats got even more severe when Michael went on trial. For example, if you go to prison for being a child molester, you are then the most hated prisoner in the eyes of your fellow inmates. And even though Michael was proven not guilty, there are still some terrible, sick people who believe that he did in fact do those terrible things to those kids.
Also, you'd think that if Michael has had SO many death threats throughout his life that he would never call Dieter and leave a voice mail about it. Don't you think that for Michael to literally pick up the phone and call a close friend of his at 2 AM he must have been pretty worried about it?
Also, didn't Kenny Ortega state in an interview that Michael was afraid he was going to be assassinated at the concerts? I know that I recall him saying that, I just can't remember where or when. He actually could have stated it when he took the stand during the Conrad Murray trial.
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Agreed, Grace. The logic points only to hoax.
+1 !
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Sorry to "barge" into your discussion with Aussie, but I really feel like answering to some of your comments.
[...]You see at the beginning of This Is It that the dancers are in tears because they have almost realized their dream which was to perform live alongside Michael. Knowing how loving Michael is, and knowing how much he cares about the people of our world, why would Michael not allow for their dream to come true? [...]
this is the way I see this: The dancers are actors and part of the hoax. They got paid for their job. And the tears were fake.
[...]and especially the costume designers. In the This Is It credits, you see that Zaldi is creating a spectacular outfit for Michael by HAND. Michael put him to work on this knowing it was never going to happen - that just doesn't sound like something Michael would do.[....]
They didn't even have to be IN on it. The costume designers made the costumes and they were paid. It's none of their business what happens to the costumes after that. I rather doubt they were depressed because Michael didn't do the TII concerts with their costumes on. I think they were rather happy spending or investing the thousands of dollars (I'm just guessing) that they got for making them!
[...]Regarding Front and TS [...] I'm just saying that they haven't given me enough to make me fully believe in what they're saying. [...]
Maybe the point is not for them to make you believe in them , but for you to try harder to understand who they really are and what they're trying to tell us --> the MESSAGE
JMO!
[...]If Front posted up a picture of Michael unedited - a picture we have never, ever seen before with a sentence like "See guys? I'm Michael! You have to believe me! And to make you believe me, I will tell you something about Jermaine no one else knows! *Insert shocking Jermaine secret here*" then I would gain more belief, but that hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.[...]
So what you're asking is in fact a BAM. A BAM is not a clue. A BAM would mean the end of the hoax. That moment is still YET to come. Until then, we've received a LOT of BLUNT "in-yo-face" CLUES and confirmations from the family regarding both TS and Front.
But as I said, I think it's up to us to find them and understand them. It's not up to them to "make us believe in them".
[...]And I apologize, but I think I used the wrong choice of words when I said "I don't really believe in the BAM". If I may, I'd like to rephrase that to "I'm not quite sure if I believe in the BAM". The reason why I'm not sure if I believe in the BAM is because no one will ever know for sure what Michael has in mind. We aren't psychics or mentalists. In my opinion, we're fans who have found a bunch of interesting clues that we can only hope point to a BAM. The only one who knows if there will be a BAM or not is Michael.[...]
You're right we cannot know for sure how Michael thinks and/or what he plans.
But we DO know the causes, reasons WHY he faked his death, amongst which: EOW, the Planet being endangered, real Justice clearing his name and image, etc.... These are just a few of the reasons which indicate us that there's got to be a BAM for them to be FINALIZED.
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[. . . ]
Let me clarify better what I mean when I say his life was in danger. When Michael was approached to do the 0-2 Arena concerts, I do believe that he intended to do the 10 shows. I really do. But I also think that he had a change of heart when they kept upping his commitment until it reached 50. Somewhere I read that he agreed finally to 31. If he did, I don’t think he did so cheerfully. However, in view of him having spoken on more than one occasion of someone or a few someones out to harm him, something occurred to me during this time that made me feel uneasy. During the time of all this planning for him to take up residence in London and do all these shows with millions of people in attendance, there was a pandemic outbreak of influenza being reported in London. They were in the middle of taking precautions to keep people away from crowded places where the germs could easily be carried and Michael whose immune system was already compromised, fit right smack in the middle of those more susceptible to acquiring this virus. Then the matter of the insurance policies with the clause specific to “if he dies during the contract” blah, blah, blah. Well hell, if it were me my first thought would be then why are you insisting that I go to live right in the heart of an outbreak of a pandemic that is relevant as we speak, when every one else is preparing to stay away' and not only are you adding shows but insuring me to the max should I “die” in the process? :icon_e_confused: I would wonder now, is this how you plan to get rid of me? Why are we not talking cancellation until further notice like after this thing or the threat of it has subsided?
The first case of the Avian flu in London was reported on April 30 2009. By June 5, there were over 100 confirmed cases and on June 11 WHO signaled that the first pandemic of the 21st century was underway. People were being advised to keep children home from school and for others who were most vulnerable to stay away from large gatherings. large gatherings :WTF: How much larger a gathering could there be than a Michael Jackson concert times 50?
One of the key mechanisms of communication used in London was the NHS London Noon Brief. This was first issued at 12.00 noon on 25 April 2009 as a simple, black and white Word document, to local NHS flu leads. Over the following weeks and months it evolved into a structured daily command and control document where new information and actions were clearly identified and the audience swelled to over 700 people across the NHS in London, partner organisations and wider stakeholders. Yet there was no slowing down or altering of any plans for Michael to go there with his children and live and breathe for months :icon_evil:
No one can convince me that the event planners didn’t know the danger associated with having Michael go to London during this crisis. And from what we’ve been told, some were mean to him and strong arming him which further exacerbates someone’s fear. Well mine anyway. There was mention that the footage used in This Is It was footage from rehearsals over the 3 days prior to June 25th. I have always believed that the practice held at the Staples Center on June 22nd was the big one; the one attended by security and other unidentified onlookers. This was reported by one of the This Is It dancers. AEG apparently was not willing to lose their money and would not release Michael from his commitment regardless of the threat that loomed in London. So he was packed I’ve heard and ready to roll. Well he rolled all right, :smiley-vault-misc-150: and the rest is History - past, present, and future.
I don’t have any proof of what or how Michael thought or felt. I’m basing all of this on what seems to me the natural thought process if it were me and I had felt threatened. Would I try to get out of it by any means necessary. Damn right I would. Don’t know if I’d have enough clout or money to fake my death but I know I could fake crazy :icon_lol: and they would be taking me out in a strait jacket.
I believe that not only was Michael concerned about his own health and well being, but also all those people, his beloved fans who would put themselves and their lives at risk just to see him. I don’t see him allowing that to happen. I believe that once this became a known pandemic, he decided to make his This Is It 0-2 Arena practice into This Is It the world renowned critically acclaimed masterpiece that it turned out to be. No one had to risk life or well being to see it. He gave it to us as a gift. So the hoax began a little early. I think... :icon_geek: [....]
Excellent post! :th_bravo:
Now you can call me crazy, delusional, or what ever fits :LolLolLolLol: it’s okay. I’ve been called worse since I became a hoax investigator for this Michael Jackson Death Hoax. I’ve put on my rhinoceros skin and I can take it. So bring it on :michael_jackson-1135:
lolll :icon_lol:
You're definitely NOT crazy!!
You have a brilliant mind!
Agree.....great !!!!! :th_bravo:
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Quote from: IWantYouBack
[...]You see at the beginning of This Is It that the dancers are in tears because they have almost realized their dream which was to perform live alongside Michael. Knowing how loving Michael is, and knowing how much he cares about the people of our world, why would Michael not allow for their dream to come true? [...]
this is the way I see this: The dancers are actors and part of the hoax. They got paid for their job. And the tears were fake.
I recall to have read that the chosen dancers for TII were actors too.
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Yeah and not very good ones either. Those opening scene "interviews" with the dancers were so fake you don't have to be a hoaxer to see it. Sorry MJ :( they sucked. But people just accepted it as part of the Hollywood magic of it all.
Re: the Blanket scene in the Bashir interview, I don't like it either, but mostly because MJ is genuinely PISSED OFF and trying really super hard to keep it together. It bothers me, I want to tell him, you know what? It's alright, we will finish this later. Man, geezus, let the poor guy off the hook. He's obviously having a moment.
But on the other hand, that MIGHT NOT BE MJ. I still hold out the possibility that there were more then one MJ staring in that interview. The differences ARE stark. I don't see how that could have all been him and I don't see how it couldN'T have been all him. It freaks me out and I don't know which way to go with the whole thing.
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@ IWantYouBack - i'm doing sneaky stuff on computer at work again. i will read your reply and respond when i get home. definitely have an idea about your thoughts on the dancers. speak soon :icon_e_wink:
meanwhile....
@ bec
But on the other hand, that MIGHT NOT BE MJ. I still hold out the possibility that there were more then one MJ staring in that interview. The differences ARE stark. I don't see how that could have all been him and I don't see how it couldN'T have been all him. It freaks me out and I don't know which way to go with the whole thing.
:icon_eek: :affraid: :icon_eek:
wow! now there adds another thing on my DH to do list. re-watch bashit interview! don't know who said it the other day, but it was on this thread, be prepared to leave everything you think you know at the door, this hoax will change the way you see things. so excited, will make time on weekend to re-watch this. do you know if this was discussed in any of the archived forums? if yes, i'll run a search so i can dig up and benefit from the conversations that were had.
Re: the Blanket scene in the Bashir interview, I don't like it either, but mostly because MJ is genuinely PISSED OFF and trying really super hard to keep it together. It bothers me, I want to tell him, you know what? It's alright, we will finish this later. Man, geezus, let the poor guy off the hook. He's obviously having a moment.
i completely agree 100% - even before i knew abt the hoax, in fact even before MJ 'died' i always read this scene as 'anger' not as he was 'nervous' about nursing blankie. he was actually "seething" and probably wanted to lose it but maybe was trying with all of his might to maintain a cool and calm disposition and composure. i say this only because i know how i react physically when i am really really angry or peed off whilst i am in the company of others, i actually become very nervous and flustered (which is quite out of character for me) simply because i struggle to hold it in and prefer to get it out verbally. (what can i say... i am european - we're hot blooded! lol) MJ here was in front of a camera and had to keep it cool.
Excellent synopsis, Aussie.
thanks
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Sorry to "barge" into your discussion with Aussie, but I really feel like answering to some of your comments.
Absolutely no need to apologize! I love discussing the hoax with anyone and everyone - feel free! Your opinion means just as much to me as Aussie's - and that goes for everyone. :)
this is the way I see this: The dancers are actors and part of the hoax. They got paid for their job. And the tears were fake.
You can definitely take it that way, but that's not how I take it. I had the opportunity to meet one of the dancers (Daniel Celebre) a couple times because he is from Toronto, which is right near my hometown. Daniel genuinely looks up to Michael - he LOVES the guy, he's a true fan, a true soldier of love. I guarantee you that his actions were not fake, and I can also guarantee you that he was devastated when he found out that he wasn't going to be able to perform live with Michael. But don't get me wrong, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect your opinion. I could be wrong.
They didn't even have to be IN on it. The costume designers made the costumes and they were paid. It's none of their business what happens to the costumes after that. I rather doubt they were depressed because Michael didn't do the TII concerts with their costumes on. I think they were rather happy spending or investing the thousands of dollars (I'm just guessing) that they got for making them!
I would agree with this comment if it was some stranger on the street hosting a Michael Jackson Tribute Concert. All the costume designers would create the costumes, give it to the stranger, take their money, and spend it on a lovely new television set, and they'd be thrilled with their life. But, unfortunately, that wasn't the case. This was Michael Jackson they were creating the costumes for. They probably worked 10 times harder than they would creating a costume for a stranger. They needed these costumes to be absolutely perfect for Michael and they worked SUPER hard. Money doesn't always buy happiness. If Michael Jackson came to me and said, "Jenn, I want you be a background singer for my This Is It tour. The only catch is that you wouldn't get any money for it whatsoever". I couldn't care less! It's MICHAEL JACKSON! The salary for me is being able to perform on stage with my idol! That's better than any amount of money. That's a memory that would never go away. I wouldn't doubt that this is the same case for a costume designer, a dancer, or even the waterboy who hands Michael Jackson his water after every song. Just my opinion, though.
Maybe the point is not for them to make you believe in them , but for you to try harder to understand who they really are and what they're trying to tell us --> the MESSAGE
JMO!
Yes, but if you don't find them trustworthy I doubt you're going to *fully* believe in their message. And so far, they haven't really given me any key information that would really make them trustworthy. We have had so many trolls come onto this website and claim to be someone they aren't it's crazy! We've been given tonnes of false information - so it's going to take a lot for me to fully believe in someone's message when I don't really know who they are, it's just human nature. But don't get me wrong, I WANT to believe in their message. I'm DYING to believe it. But I don't want my hopes to be built up and then shoved back down.
So what you're asking is in fact a BAM. A BAM is not a clue. A BAM would mean the end of the hoax. That moment is still YET to come. Until then, we've received a LOT of BLUNT "in-yo-face" CLUES and confirmations from the family regarding both TS and Front.
But as I said, I think it's up to us to find them and understand them. It's not up to them to "make us believe in them".
I'm actually not necessarily asking for a BAM. I'm asking for a never before seen, unedited picture of a recent Michael Jackson, similar to all of the 'Michael sightings' people have claimed to see, but without the editing. In my opinion, a BAM is Michael holding a press conference and showing himself to the WORLD, not posting up a picture just for BeLIEvers to see under the username of "Front" or "TS". Because even if Front or TS did post up that picture, I bet the world would still doubt it's the real Michael because they think he's dead. Again, just my opinion, I could easily be wrong.
But we DO know the causes, reasons WHY he faked his death, amongst which: EOW, the Planet being endangered, real Justice clearing his name and image, etc.... These are just a few of the reasons which indicate us that there's got to be a BAM for them to be FINALIZED.
We know SOME of the causes and reasons. There is no way we can know all of them because we aren't Michael Jackson. There could be an extremely personal reason for doing this hoax as well that only Michael knows about. And we can't say that there HAS to be a BAM for them to be finalized. We can say that it would make sense for there to be a BAM, but we just can't be sure. What if Michael is happy where he is and doesn't want to come back to his celebrity lifestyle? For the reasons we have, yes, a BAM would make sense. But, since I'm not Michael Jackson, I'm not going to walk around saying "Michael Jackson is going to be coming back soon!" I'm going to walk around saying, "I hope Michael comes back."
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Oh Aussie the forum is teeming with threads about the Bashir doubles. They're old though. We couldn't make any rhyme or reason out of the whole situation so it got dropped, more or less. It doesn't fit in anywhere, seemingly, but it IS... well... that's what I see anyway, clearly. I can't understand. It's a DH mystery to me. Can't make heads or tails out of it.
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maybe his been wearing a mask for a long time :affraid:
alright that was one of my madness thoughts, I got this silly thought what if he revealed himself and he looked more like the bad years or before then and that bit by bit he started applying a mask to make people talk..
But that's a little out there and not really reality at all but what i love about this hoax is that the possibilities are endless the imagination can take off and you enter different realms of possibilities which makes it fun.
I think in bashir he just applied the make ups differently to give different illusions.. wasn't he bashir interview done over a certain amount of months?
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@ leilani
No that isn’t a way out thing to say. He doesn’t look that different from Bad days.
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actually if you do a forum search, there have been some really good montages and comparison photos posted up on the subject.
i remember reading them a while ago. i think if you are interested, check the "MJ features" board. (not exact title but something like that) the threads are quite old.
EDIT: his skin may be lighter due to more severe / advanced vitiligo, but if you look, its the same face.
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i personally believe he actually never intended to do the concerts. (again JMO, and i could also be wrong) rather, just act like it was going to go ahead.
I definitely see what you're getting at and I respect your opinion. But, the only thing that bothers me with this point of view is the dancers. Let's say for a minute that you're correct and that this is what Michael planned. You see at the beginning of This Is It that the dancers are in tears because they have almost realized their dream which was to perform live alongside Michael. Knowing how loving Michael is, and knowing how much he cares about the people of our world, why would Michael not allow for their dream to come true? Why would Michael tell them that he is looking for dancers to perform in front of live audiences with knowing that it wasn't going to happen? I think that would be a little cruel, unless the dancers were in on it and were doing some pretty incredible acting in the first scenes of This Is It. And although the issue with the dancers is my main complaint about this point of view that you have, the same goes for Kenny Ortega, the background singers, and especially the costume designers. In the This Is It credits, you see that Zaldi is creating a spectacular outfit for Michael by HAND. Michael put him to work on this knowing it was never going to happen - that just doesn't sound like something Michael would do. But, as I said before, every person involved in This Is It could be in on it, but it's unlikely in my opinion.
I get what you are saying, that it would be cruel an un-Michael. But then again IWUB, the same similar argument could be said about the millions upon millions upon millions of devestated fans when MJ "died" on 25.06.09 - which we know he didnt. My point being that to get what needed to be done, done, there had to be some collateral. MJ can't protect and ensure everyones feelings and emotions aren't hurt, otherwise DH would simply not be possible. Same with TII - They were playing a role. They may want to dance with MJ, but then again so does every other good dancer on the planet. And the reality is, its just not going to happen. However to be commissioned / paid for your role as a dancer along side MJ in the filming of TII is just as good if not better, because its not merely a concert, they are privledged to be involved in a historical never done before (to this scale) event for their dancing / music idol.
and as bec said - (not verbatim) cheesy cheesy interviews. staged for sure.
Regarding Front and TS, I truly believe that no matter what, you can't trust everybody to the fullest. I WANT to believe that Front is Michael and/or that TS and Front know for sure that Michael is going to BAM, but I just don't know for sure and therefore I can't trust them fully. I'm not saying they're wrong, I'm just saying that they haven't given me enough to make me fully believe in what they're saying. If Front posted up a picture of Michael unedited - a picture we have never, ever seen before with a sentence like "See guys? I'm Michael! You have to believe me! And to make you believe me, I will tell you something about Jermaine no one else knows! *Insert shocking Jermaine secret here*" then I would gain more belief, but that hasn't happened yet to my knowledge.
a level of caution is always wise. but too many instances (for me personally) add up. not trying to convince you of front / TS, but these two (or one) combined with the families clues / lyrical hints / etc make for a strong "bam" case.
however agree, that i cant be certain either. i feel it in my heart, but could be wrong. if TS is anythng to go by, it will happen. considering other areas that he has shed light, i tend to believe the bam promise too. but that's just me. lets see what happens end of december hey?
Regarding Jermaine, Latoya, Paris and the rest of the clues given by people in Michael's inner circle, while they are interesting, I don't think they all point to a BAM - I think they more or less point to Michael being alive, but not a for sure comeback. For example, when Latoya told all of us to watch "The Illusionist", I watched it, but at the end, we see Eisenheim living a happy life with his lover without coming back to being the world's greatest illusionist. That clue, in my opinion, points to Michael being alive, but does not point to a BAM.
true. Eisenheim didn't come back to be worlds greatest magician. but the subject who was presumed to have died (Biels character) was not head at all, and went on to live her life happy ever after. so it could be looked at from that angle too. but each to their own, and i respect what you have taken from the movie.
Also, you'd think that if Michael has had SO many death threats throughout his life that he would never call Dieter and leave a voice mail about it. Don't you think that for Michael to literally pick up the phone and call a close friend of his at 2 AM he must have been pretty worried about it?
don't know, i tend to think that if this were me i'd be calling the authorities if there were an imminent threat. but again, matter of opnion. could be either way.
agree to disagee. but this has been good though. thank you for sharing you ideas and opinions.
:bearhug:
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...... and as bec said - (not verbatim) cheesy cheesy interviews. staged for sure.
It reminded me, this talk of the dancers' interviews, of a conversation I had with someone after watching TII at the cinema. (We hadn't gone together) They asked if I'd cried, as they had, at the beginning when the dancers were talking. I said no I hadn't and they were surprised. I was surprised and puzzled - I felt as though I should have cried - hell, it was a sad situation after all. I should add that I still thought MJ was dead at this point. But it didn't feel real, it felt like a movie and with the glaringly obvious 'no RIP', it definitely got filed away in my brain's 'all is not as it seems' dept!
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so i am interested to hear from those who believe that MJ was in great danger around time of death, now that we have seen that Katherine was apparently in possible danger and missing (this instance, a claim produced from the jackson camp - thats where is started) do you still believe that he was in the great danger that the family spoke of in interviews just after his death, again in that instance these claims came from the jackson camp. we have learned the biggest lesson about "what the jacksons say" in the past week.
also, IWantYouBack, interested on your thoughts about my comment above re: MJ fans as collateral, when he died in 09, and also if you agree that the dancers could have been part of this collateral also. (thats IF they arent in on it, and its a big if)
i think the main reason we were discussing this was the theory that TII was never going to go ahead, and the argument against that theory, that it in fact was supposed to be a concert, not just a recording.
i have re posted my reply to you below.
i personally believe he actually never intended to do the concerts. (again JMO, and i could also be wrong) rather, just act like it was going to go ahead.
I definitely see what you're getting at and I respect your opinion. But, the only thing that bothers me with this point of view is the dancers. Let's say for a minute that you're correct and that this is what Michael planned. You see at the beginning of This Is It that the dancers are in tears because they have almost realized their dream which was to perform live alongside Michael. Knowing how loving Michael is, and knowing how much he cares about the people of our world, why would Michael not allow for their dream to come true? Why would Michael tell them that he is looking for dancers to perform in front of live audiences with knowing that it wasn't going to happen? I think that would be a little cruel, unless the dancers were in on it and were doing some pretty incredible acting in the first scenes of This Is It. And although the issue with the dancers is my main complaint about this point of view that you have, the same goes for Kenny Ortega, the background singers, and especially the costume designers. In the This Is It credits, you see that Zaldi is creating a spectacular outfit for Michael by HAND. Michael put him to work on this knowing it was never going to happen - that just doesn't sound like something Michael would do. But, as I said before, every person involved in This Is It could be in on it, but it's unlikely in my opinion.
I get what you are saying, that it would be cruel and un-Michael. But then again IWUB, the same similar argument could be said about the millions upon millions upon millions of devestated fans when MJ "died" on 25.06.09 - which we know he didnt. My point being that to get what needed to be done, done, there had to be some collateral. MJ can't protect and ensure everyones feelings and emotions aren't hurt, otherwise DH would simply not be possible. Same with TII - They were playing a role. They may want to dance with MJ, but then again so does every other good dancer on the planet. And the reality is, its just not going to happen. However to be commissioned / paid for your role as a dancer along side MJ in the filming of TII is just as good if not better, because its not merely a concert, they are privledged to be involved in a historical never done before (to this scale) event for their dancing / music idol.
and as bec said - (not verbatim) cheesy cheesy interviews. staged for sure.
but in the end, i get that we will probably just end up agreeing to disagree on this one :icon_lol:
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Shall we get back on topic and discuss this all in the appropriate threads so that newbies can actually find the info they are looking for?
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it kinda evolved from MJ being in debt, to MJ being in debt and danger and that HD was brought in place for damage control (whch i dont believe) we were just theorising and we've drifted from the article, and it bought about interesting conversations. however i'm sorry we digressed, it wasnt deliberate.
if anyone cares to continue discussion, i suppose we can in 'off topic' but if momentum is lost and the moment is past, thats cool.
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it kinda evolved from MJ being in debt, to MJ being in debt and danger and that HD was brought in place for damage control (whch i dont believe) we were just theorising and we've drifted from the article, and it bought about interesting conversations. however i'm sorry we digressed, it wasnt deliberate.
if anyone cares to continue discussion, i suppose we can in 'off topic' but if momentum is lost and the moment is past, thats cool.
No, not in off topic, just a new thread. It IS an important discussion, now buried in a TMZ article which makes it hard to find again later, or for new people searching for information.
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Well this finally confirms that Michael is worth more dead than alive, well done Michael you are a clever man.
but if a BAM makes sales / the product of MJ sky rocket thru the roof even further, then that might turn this phrase on its head
michael is worth more alive than a legend is when he is dead.... or such....
LOL...
oooh, I like that. May I quote you in the future? "Michael Jackson is worth more alive than dead" :michael-jackson: