Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators

Hoax Investigation => June 25, 2009 => Medical Discussion => Topic started by: 2good2btrue on November 06, 2011, 07:09:47 AM

Title: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 06, 2011, 07:09:47 AM
Just wondering how this can be possible...and why was it done??

The first gurney photo looks more traumatic with its mouth open...

But before a viewing by family members, the body has to be made presentable...and this includes placing something under their chin, to help close their mouths...The intubating tube, MUST be left in for the coroners....and can not be taken out until autopsy...
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 06, 2011, 08:04:25 AM
I know what you are trying to say, but logically it is 2 different gurney one when they pronounced him dead, and the other for autopsy, they moved this body( I will not name Michael because it is not him) to another gurney and they closed his mouth, and tilted his head to the other side. This is what I think.. I may be wrong.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: bec on November 06, 2011, 10:15:50 AM
They can't. The corpse would be in full rigor at this point.

But that's not a pic of a corpse so it's an easy explanation.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: MissG on November 06, 2011, 11:12:37 AM
May be one pic is flipped and that´s why the head direction does not fit?
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on December 30, 2011, 02:57:59 AM
2 different poses, at 2 different times. Might I suggest something that hasn't been suggest yet for the autopsy setup? http://www.casualtysimulation.com/products/Anatomical-Male-Autopsy-Body-with-Complete-Organs.html

There's also...a male autopsy vest! http://www.casualtysimulation.com/products/Male-Autopsy-Vest.html

Sorry, don't know how to do the tags.

I have my own theory on what happened...
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: xxmjxx on December 30, 2011, 04:11:59 AM
Wasnt it said by the paramedics,that when they got to the house,the person they attended had a peach fuzz no hair,were did the black hair come from on those pictures then,think this has been disscused already,but thought i would just say........ :?: :?:
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on December 30, 2011, 11:20:58 AM
See, that's what I keep hearing, that's been driving me crazy throughout the entire ordeal: "We heard." "We are told."
I'll check the dead dog.

Also, IRC, the policeman who went to get the hairs a month later at Forest Lawn was quite descriptive - except for where the cut should've been, to remove the brain.

Sometimes, it's also the lack of information, that's also the devil in the details.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: suspicious mind on December 30, 2011, 11:42:38 AM
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See, that's what I keep hearing, that's been driving me crazy throughout the entire ordeal: "We heard." "We are told."I'll check the dead dog.

Also, IRC, the policeman who went to get the hairs a month later at Forest Lawn was quite descriptive - except for where the cut should've been, to remove the brain.

Sometimes, it's also the lack of information, that's also the devil in the details.

wonder if it is possible for some group of people : fans, justice for michael ect. to file some sort of class action for the full disclosure of details in this case?  ok i am heading back to the comfort of my little corner now, ready the jacket .
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: mrbigshot on December 30, 2011, 11:59:07 AM
guys stop posting pictures of me, it's not nice. I don't like when people sneak up  on me while im sleeping and taking pictures. Sure, its weird and all that I prefer gurney's...but thats just your assertion as to what normality consists of.


fyi, as bec  iterated, he can't move if hes in rigor. body is too stiff. but it's not michael's "dead" body. they probably photoshopped him from a picture him sleeping or something. I donno.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 30, 2011, 12:02:41 PM
aren’t dummies poseable  lolol/
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on December 31, 2011, 03:11:24 PM
 Something else has been bugging me here, if you insist a person. After being on IVs too many times over the past two months, where do you think the punctures are, really on my arms? The person who inserted them put them into the BACK of my hands, because she said thats where it's much EASIER to hit a vein, and more comfortable for the patient. So, I have 3 bruises across 2 hands, hoping they heal up nice.

They normally only puncture the elbow area, for TESTS, not for admission with IVs connected (under normal circumstances).. I asked when I had more blood drawn this week.  /white flag/ Geez, haven't I given enough to these vampires? (joke).

So, you could theoretically snip an intubation tube down, and just insert it into the mouth, and tape it as usual.

I'd have my head moved away, for the "autopsy" photo if it were me, because I'd be giggling every time my friends were taking it, and saying, "Okay, and now play dead."

It's not a gurney, it's the metal table, btw. I just see sheets, totally inappropriate for transporting anyone, but alive.

But then, I don't think he was at UCLA at all, but Cedars, resting peacefully - just like Elizabeth Taylor said (the only one I've never seen lie, until after told about the Hoax).
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: lovemj on December 31, 2011, 08:01:48 PM
i,m wondering what that white stripe is along the chest  wish we could get a clearer picture
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on December 31, 2011, 08:39:20 PM
I don't know about the white stripe - it wasn't on the image I downloaded, and tried to clear up in photoshop with filters, to check for a belly button. But something just hit me, that's obvious, assuming someone is just make believing here:

When you lay down, your upper arms will pool, get wider. If someone died laying down, you would still have that position, even in rigor mortis. They also put the head on a block, just before they do an autopsy.

This is to resemble, just after the helicopter ride.

I do believe this is a live person, even after I adjusted the photo, and made the proportions more normal, with makeup on them, to stand for where the adrenaline shots were given. And yes - the outy belly button is there, when you adjust the lighting in photosho. So, someone perhaps used a filter, or there's more shots of this angle out.

I need to be told how to do that, to upload my modified image, that I also adjusted to a more proportionate weight.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: 2good2btrue on January 01, 2012, 12:25:23 AM
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I don't know about the white stripe - it wasn't on the image I downloaded, and tried to clear up in photoshop with filters, to check for a belly button. But something just hit me, that's obvious, assuming someone is just make believing here:

When you lay down, your upper arms will pool, get wider. If someone died laying down, you would still have that position, even in rigor mortis. They also put the head on a block, just before they do an autopsy.

This is to resemble, just after the helicopter ride.

I do believe this is a live person, even after I adjusted the photo, and made the proportions more normal, with makeup on them, to stand for where the adrenaline shots were given. And yes - the outy belly button is there, when you adjust the lighting in photosho. So, someone perhaps used a filter, or there's more shots of this angle out.

I need to be told how to do that, to upload my modified image, that I also adjusted to a more proportionate weight.

You could have the altered image up on the screen, and then take a screenshot...by pressing "PrintScreen" (PrtScn) key, and opening windows Paint......and paste the screen shot, and then crop it....it then can be saved to your computer as a JPEG or whatever you use to save pictures to your computer.....Cheers...xxxxxxx
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on February 24, 2012, 07:06:49 PM
Ah, it's IN my computer as a JPEG already, in PHOTOSHOP. Why would I take a screenshot, then reverse engineer it all, and loose quality?  :(
I'm asking HOW to get the image onto this site!
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: MaryK on February 24, 2012, 07:31:01 PM
Tink, how about uploading the image to photobucket or imageshack? Did you try that already?
Once you´ve done that you get a direct link which you can insert while posting by using the "insert image" icon.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: MeandMyShadow on February 24, 2012, 08:41:04 PM
I'm going to ask something, probably stupid, but, why do they put an intubation tube and leave it on a dead body?  What is it for?
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: LoveShyMichael on February 24, 2012, 10:38:48 PM
When my father was sick & in hospital & when he was getting sicker, & required the breathing tube full time, & when it was apparent he wasn't going to make it, they took out the large breathing tube, & went to the smaller breathing tube, gave him more morphine enough to feel comfortable, & when he did pass, there was no breathing tube, & actually I stayed in the room at least an hour or more after he died, & they removed all breathing tubes, & IV's, he looked totally at peace with absolutely tubes, machines, nothing..

He had died, so there was no need to keep any tubes, machines, IV's, they even wheeled out the machines out of his room while I was in there spending my last hour with my dad.

The only thing the nurse did was after all tubes, IV'S, machines we're removed, she came in to put a rolled up towel under his chin to keep his mouth closed, which was mostly done because she thought I'd feel more comfortable spending that time with my dad with his mouth closed. Either way it didn't bother me, it was my dad.

So I don't know why "Michael" would've had pictures AFTER he's pronouned dead, to continue to have a tube coming out of his mouth. Doesn't make any sense to me. If he's dead, he DOESN'T need a breathing tube. What for?
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on February 24, 2012, 11:13:49 PM
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When my father was sick & in hospital & when he was getting sicker, & required the breathing tube full time, & when it was apparent he wasn't going to make it, they took out the large breathing tube, & went to the smaller breathing tube, gave him more morphine enough to feel comfortable, & when he did pass, there was no breathing tube, & actually I stayed in the room at least an hour or more after he died, & they removed all breathing tubes, & IV's, he looked totally at peace with absolutely tubes, machines, nothing..

He had died, so there was no need to keep any tubes, machines, IV's, they even wheeled out the machines out of his room while I was in there spending my last hour with my dad.

The only thing the nurse did was after all tubes, IV'S, machines we're removed, she came in to put a rolled up towel under his chin to keep his mouth closed, which was mostly done because she thought I'd feel more comfortable spending that time with my dad with his mouth closed. Either way it didn't bother me, it was my dad.

So I don't know why "Michael" would've had pictures AFTER he's pronouned dead, to continue to have a tube coming out of his mouth. Doesn't make any sense to me. If he's dead, he DOESN'T need a breathing tube. What for?

Purely for Shock Value. People in this day & age in America, see an alleged dead body, and quickly turn away...the ick factor makes them look away.

@LoveShyMichael: I truly believe that's what they would've done, if he were truly deceased. Would you want your kids to see you like THIS!?

Oh...wow.
I sure wouldn't.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: missudi on February 24, 2012, 11:34:46 PM
I was with my best friend when she died,god bless her.she had no tubes in,and nothing under her chin to keep her mouth closed,but her mouth was closed.oh dear cant believe I,m saying this,sorry,cant believe shes gone.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on February 25, 2012, 02:48:04 AM
 strange to see the body has a pillow under his head , or at least it looks like it , when doctors working on a patient they need a flat surboard tho?

Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on February 25, 2012, 02:57:48 AM
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strange to see the body has a pillow under his head , or at least it looks like it , when doctors working on a patient they need a flat surboard tho?

Only paramedics use one of those, for transport as far as I know. Once in the hospital, they have machines to take over breathing, and they can even do heart massage from the inside - like that doctor said. As long as artificial respiration is going on, oxygen getting to the BRAIN, you have a chance to be brought back to your heart taking back over, even an hour plus later. OH. WOW.

Does anyone also realize, that a doctor can't release information, without the family's permission, especially if a patient's alive!? Just thought I'd toss that in.


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I was with my best friend when she died,god bless her.she had no tubes in,and nothing under her chin to keep her mouth closed,but her mouth was closed.oh dear cant believe I,m saying this,sorry,cant believe shes gone.

@missudi - I'm so very sorry for your loss...it's different, when your loved one dies with you there. But her spirit was glad, you know. Best friends to the end, it really means something important!

Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on February 25, 2012, 03:05:50 AM
still the position of the bed, or maybe a pillow under his head, it is to let the patient feel comfortable tho.
So to me it is odd.

 :)
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: libranaster on February 25, 2012, 03:35:36 AM
I only know this because I am really morbid ok. It takes up to 12 hours for full rigor to set in his body may have still been pliable at this stage. I believe this is a real dead body because in the later photo you can see how his skin is darkening where due to gravity blood is pooling in his body. Whether it is who its meant to be well I wouldn't be here if I believed that.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: libranaster on February 25, 2012, 03:41:28 AM
Just a thought too how do you know how long this person has been dead all we have to go on is what we are told. This is a VERY recently dead person. In the first photo it looks like they took their last breath and snap! Seriously you start to change colour quite quickly wierd if you ask me. Having been around a dead body for quite some time after death something is certainly dodgy with the body.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: MeandMyShadow on February 25, 2012, 06:00:55 PM
Okay, so the one picture on the gurny is from the hospital...right?  Well, I can maaaybe see the tube being in there.  I have my doubts, but it is possible...I guess.  But WHY would the tube still be in the picture at autopsy?  They didn't do the autopsy that day or evening, did they?  They would have had plenty of time to take it out.  And does that mean that the tube was still in the body when they put him in the helecopter?  This does not make sense.  Also, what is the red sore in the chest?  Is this where they tried to do resusitation?
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: missudi on February 25, 2012, 07:39:58 PM
Thank you Tink.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: Tink on February 27, 2012, 02:58:22 AM
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Okay, so the one picture on the gurny is from the hospital...right?  Well, I can maaaybe see the tube being in there.  I have my doubts, but it is possible...I guess.  But WHY would the tube still be in the picture at autopsy?  They didn't do the autopsy that day or evening, did they?  They would have had plenty of time to take it out.  And does that mean that the tube was still in the body when they put him in the helecopter?  This does not make sense.  Also, what is the red sore in the chest?  Is this where they tried to do resusitation?

I do wish to point out something very important here: THAT GURNEY IS NOT USED AT UCLA, especially not at the time Period when Michael was brought in, okay? People have verified it, cross verified it. Those are sent to like, oh, old county hospitals. They're not at the new hospitals. Where I had emergency surgery at last year, I was a smart ass, and pointed out to my bf, "Look, see? UCLA had THESE gurneys, not the straight bars!" He just looked at the doc, and said, "She's hallucinating from the pain again!" And they upped my morphine - again.  Little did he realize, I was still wide-awake, heh.

The red sore, was allegedly from them using the epinephrine needle into the heart.

Here's info from a Paramedic:

"Epinephrine (adrenalin) is a catecholemine produced by the adrenal glands, and its secretion is controlled by the sympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system. It acts mainly to increase the rate and strength of cardiac contraction, and to constrict peripheral blood vessels, in order to maintan adequate supply of blood to vital organs when the body is stressed. It also acts to dilate the small airways, stimulate the start of slower (but longer lasting) measures of maintaining adequate blood supply, and mobilise energy stores for instant use. There are other effects but these are the main ones.

As a paramedic, I am authorised to use adrenalin in managing:
- cardiac arrest (intravenous)
- severe asthma that has deteriorated beyond effective inhalational remedies (intramuscular)
- severe allergic reactions (intramuscular)

Almost all adrenalin is given intravenously or by intramuscular injection. Putting it down an airway is not very effective because you need to use twice as much to get the same result as an IV dose, because it has to cross the respiratory membrane to get into the blood. And as for the direct injection into the heart....this is very much an emergency procedure limited to very specific circumstances."

In other words, direct heart injection is only used for immediate heart restart.

Here's another Paramedic's POV:
"Early defibrilliation takes precendence over everything else when starting CPR, so one paramedic will prepare the LifePak (or similar defib machine) while the other(s) commence CPR.

Once connected, the machine is allowed to run its protocol (usually 3 shocks, one minute of CPR, 3 more shocks), before any more elborate care is attempted.

At this point, airway management wil be upgraded from a simple oral airway to either a laryngeal mask airway or an endotracheal tube. Another minute of high quality CPR will follow.

If there is still no recovery, an IV access will be established in a large bore vein (usually the antecubital fossa in the elbow). A freely flowing normal saline drip is started, followed by 1 ml doses of adrenalin 1:1000. Each dose is separated by a couple of minutes of CPR.

The action of adrenalin in this scenario is not just to create some cardiac stimulation. It also acts on the veins to cause peripheral vasoconstriction, thus forcing blood back into the torso to boost venous return to the heart to boost output. This action helps to move the drug towards the heart, in concert with circulation provided by CPR.

Increased cardiac ouput, albeit by CPR, helps to improve coronary circulation to the heart muscle. The aim of the whole procedure is to get enough oxygen into the cells of the heart muscle to get it back into normal function."

I've been both a passenger in an ambulance, and rode shotgun upfront, with a friend in the back. In both situations, we were critical but stabilized. They chose NOT to run the sirens, as driving fast could potentially destabilize broken bones. Not fun, but as far as I know? You don't run sirens if patient is ALIVE and stable! You run sirens if they're NOT STABLE, and you're running hot, rushing with everyone on code BLUE, ready with crash carts and everything.

If someone's dead at their home, the coroner picks them up, not the paramedics; the police immediately collect evidence, in conjunction with the Coroner's Office. Ergo, I must summarize whomever it was, was STABLE, BREATHING, heart was beating, on the way to the hospital. Siren's are for those in dire danger.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: 2good2btrue on February 27, 2012, 06:12:10 AM
Check out these two comparisons.I believe this is the original photo taken from the real life crimes shows.its a double, but OMG..he is almost identical to the picture..other than his face head and the blacked areas.

You can also notice the same reflections from the  autopsy table..........
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: MeandMyShadow on February 27, 2012, 06:18:42 PM
In the picture where it suppose to be MJ at autospy, the right leg shows a big red scar or mark.  Is that where he had that spider bite?  And would there still be a big scar from that?  Not sure when it happened.   Or is this probably from something else?  I know back when he supposedly *died*, 20/20 did a show and showed pictures of the spider bite, but then the media and their doctors who already form opinions speculated that it was from an IV that leaked and not a spider bite.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: LoveShyMichael on February 27, 2012, 07:47:06 PM
I didn't notice that spider bite mark before. It does appear to be in the same area of the pictures that Michael showed. But not to say it can't be duplicated on another "person"...
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on May 11, 2013, 05:50:19 PM
Today I was attending a tiny chat where a 10 years professional paramedic who has been following Michael's case was talking about it and somebody asked her some questions, please correct me if some of you were attending the tiny chat and I am wrong but she said that it's totally impossible not to recognise (by paramedics) Michael's body although his body were very deteriorated and that the man described at the court room and the man brought to UCLA by the paramedics were two different persons, that's to say the descriptions didn't match, I felt quite relieved BTW.
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: blankie on May 11, 2013, 09:07:41 PM
 :woohoo2:  Thanks sweet for sharing!!!!  :bearhug: :moonwalk_:
Title: Re: How can MJ's corpse move its head position after being deceased for 6 hrs??
Post by: mindseye on May 12, 2013, 01:59:05 PM
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Today I was attending a tiny chat where a 10 years professional paramedic who has been following Michael's case was talking about it and somebody asked her some questions, please correct me if some of you were attending the tiny chat and I am wrong but she said that it's totally impossible not to recognise (by paramedics) Michael's body although his body were very deteriorated and that the man described at the court room and the man brought to UCLA by the paramedics were two different persons, that's to say the descriptions didn't match, I felt quite relieved BTW.

Thanks Sweet for mentioning this. I had a chance to listen in on this chat as well - the information she gave is very interesting. She also said that the Resuscitator was not placed properly on his mouth, the lip and teeth showing above it - which is the reason this paramedic began to question MJ's death. He shouldn't have been really cold even if he had already been dead over an hour, depends on room temp. Not unusual to back out slowly when leaving and in the State she lives in there are usually two ambulances and one firetruck at this type of emergency. The caller was too vague compared to calls she's heard. He never said it was Michael and more specific. In her opinion, the paramedics were in on it.

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