Official General Prelim Discussion thread

[PureLove]

I am still here because I am hoping to be proved wrong. I am about 99% sure that Mike is gone but even though I still have that 1% hope left it is still hope after all and so I will continue on coming here...There might be something that comes up that we have missed that points to an obvious hoax who knows. I simply cannot understand why IF Michael hoaxed his death that he would choose to go out in such a horrible and controversial way?

Why not a simple heart attack in his sleep?? That would have made sense too given the amount of stress he had been under these past few years. But now we have a big court case and a doctor involved. Surely there are other ways to die that would have caused less fuss? This has always been the one thing that I could never reconcile in my mind. I did think that Michael was helping the authorities bring down shady over prescribing doctors but now I am not even sure of that.


IF this is a hoax then it is the most realistic hoax that I have ever heard of. I will admit that some things are just crazy..It's crazy that a doctor of medicine could be just so darn right stupid for one...Words fail me..But who knows anymore?

If Michael wanted to hoax his death just to hide out, he would have definitely chosen a simple way like a heart attack or an accident etc. Why would he involve an innocent person and show him like he is guilty? This is the proof that he didn't do the hoax to run away and hide out but he did it with very serious purposes and he will come back (BAM) sooner or later to accomplish the mission.

I know that some believers started to lose hope with the upcoming trial of Murray. But actually all they need to remember is the numerology of the hoax. I don't get why some find it so complicated because it definitely is not. And it is the ultimate proof of this hoax. If you still think that we only have  imaginary speculations, I would offer you to check out the numerology one more time. 12:21 is just one of them. What could be the possibility of a coincidence for Murray to call 911 at 12:21 exactly? And again 2 hours and 5 minutes later the "death" time comes. 2+5=7. And how can it be a coincidence to make 77 days from the “death” on June 25 to 9-9-09; and 7 days from the “burial” to 9-9-09? Check out the memorial and funeral dates. 7/7/9  and 9/3/9. And now we have a trial on the same day like Michael’s which is Jan 25th. The dates speak at high volumes about the hoax. All we need to do is to remember the dates and time! REMEMBER THE TIME my friends! That's what we need to do. There is no need to lose hope. Trust the man with the plan. Give him all your LOVE, support, loyalty, endurance, courage, strength and patience...Believe him and put your trust in him.

[Sinderella]

[center:a573n335][/center:a573n335]

[MJonmind]

It's what I call a paradox. Both sides are true at the same time. That calls for thinking outside the box, a step back further to see the big picture. That's why hoaxers and MJ's dead sides are so entrenched. Oh dear, what a dilemna!! How I love MJ!! He is beyond mastermind! Some posters here are so good at providing such researched details and conclusions, which I'm so thankful for and have great respect for, great for people like me to simply read and add to mental files. Which side will win, and end up being proven true? Ah, that is the question. My bets on the hoax because, besides knowing all the dirty facts of what went on with the allegations and drugs, I listen to his music, his videos, his interviews, studied everyone's contributions on the 'strange' goings on with the MJ "death", studied TS's words, and lastly listen to my heart. I don't know how he did it, and a good magician doesn't tell how he performed the trick, but he defied death. As BACK would say, "Keep watching!"

I actually appreciate new people here coming hard with the "facts", because it causes us all to keep our thinking caps on. Otherwise we would be too relaxed just sitting watching the show, eating popcorn!

RunFaYaLife
Know what I mean Vern?

How I love and miss Jim Varney!

[Supervision]

Re: Official General Prelim Discussion thread
 by RunFaYaLife » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:25 am
So MANY good points in these replies...but I will only address this one right now.

Also, I thank the people for having the introspective to see that my comment was not a slam against Michael Jackson.

hell I have been in love with his voice since
the Jackson5 hit Motown... Needless to say that was a long time ago...when we only had AM radios in our cars....so I am not one of these new fan types..
that just discovered him after he died or when my mother used to listen to him.

Know what I mean Vern?

BTW did anyone read the link I provided?
I think it painted an interesting picture of some of the insane goings on his life.

With that said...
by encino_girl » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:37 am

RunFaYaLife wrote:So is this attack the newbie night?

As you can see I did not say he was broke...I said he was heading in that direction.

On the other hand there is this...if he did hoax his own death...he certainly had enough reasons to do it....he was on a fast train to broke.



Further more he had been in a mental and financial decline for years.
Those are facts and have nothing to do with Dr Murry's "troot lips"
Although, I suspect there was foul play involved...once again for the all
mighty dollar.
That alone would wear a sensitive artist down.

But hey!
Believe what you want to believe I am not here to try and change your mind OR argue with you...but if you follow his own money trail over the last few years it is pretty obvious....especially after the 2005 trial fiasco.
That was the last straw for him mentally....you can see it on his face after he walked out of the trial being found innocent of ALL accounts....and flew off to Bahrain.
He did not care anymore...and I can sympathize with that.

I really believe he has been in court more than any other celebrity.... ever.
Most was on trumped up money grubber's nonsense.

Then there are those people whom one has to wonder if they had his best interest at heart.
and the fact that he was supporting his whole family...to the extent that as
i am sure you have read he would have some of his siblings and father make an appointment to see him [pretty funny of MJ IMO.]
MJ did have a long standing prescription drug problem...which I found to be be very sad...and costly.

In other news....
Here is a link that is an interesting read about what went on with his catalog...in case you missed it....check out the 'familiar' names involved.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... gain-22420


With all due respect, I take issue with your post.

Do you honestly believe he looked weary and defeated after the trial because of money issues?

He'd just won the exhaustive fight for his life,for his freedom, for God's sake. He'd just gone through weeks of listening to the prosecution paint him as the most vile & depraved of all humans; one who preys on children for sexual gratification, to the world.

Murder. Rape. Theft. You name it, and the public would've been more forgiving had those been the charges against him, but being accused of pedophilia hangs a stigma over your head that cannot be erased, even if you're acquitted. The weight of an accusation alone has caused mentally strong persons to level a revolver at their temple and pull the trigger.



Yes I do.

As I am sure you know...
he had been down this road in 1993. He went on with his career....
Actually it was during this time that he wrote Stranger In Moscow.

However, as you probably already know....he was a mess over the first accusation- MJ KNEW what this meant to his
career.

The 2005 Trail was the nightmare he did not want to ever live through again.

By this time he had been through it once....rehabed...been sued many times for business related things and as well as plagiarizing which yet another stupid lawsuit but it would be considered "theft" none the less.

However, NOTHING NOTHING could get to him like another accusation like this. It was like the death blow to his reputation and career and he knew it.
Considering what happened to his Invincible album thanks in large to SONY.

Not to mention his physical condition due to some serious injuries and wear and Tear on his body. Let's face Our man put everything he HAD into what he did.
After that crash in Bucharest where the bucket fell 60ft you cannot tell me he did not have some serious back problems and probably other injuries that would and did become chronic....with age.
Then there was his delicate mental state.
He may have tried to hide it [alligator skin] but he was an artist and very sensitive one.
Most dedicated artist are...but that coupled with his perfectionist nature... well there it is.
He wore his feelings on his sleeve...God love him.
It was in inevitable with all that had happened to him up to 2003 when the last sexual molestation allegation surfaced that he would kick up his drug intake.
That is what addicts do...just the facts mam.

It is obvious he has some anxiety issues from all of the benesodapines and antidepressants he was prescribed.
When MJ did something...even drug use he went ALL the way.

By the time he went to the trail he had kicked up his drug habit to dull the pain.
..because of FEAR , ANGER and loathing...which are emotions he had every right to feel.
By the time it was over he was gone. If you ever look at him when the verdict was read it is glaringly obvious.

I think he was disgusted and left the country with his kids in tow. I know I would have been.
He probably managed to cut down on his drug usage some what at some point after he could breathe.
During the time he was on his self imposed isolation which he needed.

The thing is no matter where he went or what he did he could not escape the public eye.

Mental decline? Oh, I beg to differ. Surely, he was depressed, and perhaps he was angry and bitter for a time. Who wouldn't be? Look at how society fractured over the verdict, and how it labeled him either completely innocent or guilty but got away with it.

 Michael persevered through the mire and muck, and he focused inward, on being a great father to his children, succeeding as is evidenced by the composure of his children, and eventually to making a complete comeback.

He was used and abused by people in whom he put his trust, strangers, and even his family, and not once did he fail to continue to be the epitome of forgiveness. That, my friend, takes a man who's center is peace, and who's mind is strong. A lesser or weaker man would've remained bitter & broken, but Michael didn't.

Mental decline my ass.

Oh, IMO...

by RunFaYaLife
Actually I meant to say physical and mental decline.

I've covered most of my thoughts on this already....and yes I agree he focused inward..used and abused etc.
[did you read my link?]

Oh yes he forgave some people however, he did not others to an extent he was bitter and heart broken [who wouldn't be?] but never the less strong

I beg to differ on him wanting to make a complete comeback...especially in the genre of touring. He HATED it and he by now he was physically not able and he knew it. He wanted to make movies and other things.

He was also suffering from Lupus and vitiligo both autoimmune diseases not to mention painful ones at that.
MJ stated himself he could never do 50 concerts he only signed up for 10..then 30.
He also stated that this would kill him and he meant it.

But by then with the help of some not so savory character's he had signed his life away to the devil's. I suspect the mysterious Thome Thome had a big part in that.
CAUGHT between a rock and a hard place...as I stated earlier.
MJ was definitely in financial trouble.
The above are the facts.

Well,  RunFaYaLife , now here you are, one poster, that is not afraid to  really tell it like it is.

Ditto for you for presenting the “facts” about our beloved MJ and his life's up and downs and ordeals.

We love Michael , not because he was perfect in every thing in life, but because we can feel him with our hearts.

I am also a long time fan of MJ..going to J5 days, and I can understand perfectly what you are talking about here.

There are some fans ,  that have just jumped on the MJ bandwagon after his ‘death” no less, and most of them,it seems to me anyway,  don’t really seem to know what they are talking about in regards to Michael and his whole career.

 Rather, at times, it seems they are absolutely talking about another celebrity of their own fantasy, rather than Mike.
The Mike, his long adoring fans have known ,  with his perfect side and his glaringly weak side too..
Thanks for posting this , I really enjoyed reading your post.
Peace.

[ladytmurphy]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm counting the days.  I know with everything that has been revealed Michael Jackson is alive.  I just hope and pray he does come back.  When he does return, I hope everyone will be as loyal to him then as they are now.....I have always been a believer when it come to Michael.  He is love and goodness.  We have to follow him when he does return.  He is the road to righteousness.  The Army of Love wait for his return.

[PureLove]

Also,it is only illegal to fake your death if money is made from it ie your spouse claims your life insurance.
It is then fraud,theft,and you will go to prison for it.If the new album said 'in loving memory of Michael Jackson RIP' and people bought it,some based on the fact he was dead then it would be fraud-$$ made from his death.
Think about it...for a moment before you jump on me,what OFFICIAL products,events,anything that is MJ related have you seen with RIP on?Or that suggests he is dead?
You will be hard pushed to find anything officially licensed that has in loving memory on or RIP.They don't exist.
Even TII dvd,at the start it says June 25th Michael was only days away from going to London,and weeks from the tour' nowhere on that DVD does it say RIP Michael Jackson,rest in peace king of pop,in loving memory of MJ...it only says dedicated to his children.
I can't tell you how I know or why because..well I just can't(sorry) but there has not been one OFFICIAL/endorsed tribute show for Michael-you know the king of pop,the man who changed music,made MTV,inspired almost every living artist today....why?because they can't hold an event that people would go to based on it being for his 'memory' when he is not gone.There would be uproar and all hell would break loose.Refunds right and left.
Every show that has been 'planned' has been cancelled and not gone ahead.This is why.
First thing that should have happened is a tribute concert featuring global artists who owe him for his inspiration and so on...but nope....and No,Jermaine's Vegas show doesn't count because it was not promoted as a MJ tribute show or say RIP or in memory of.. it was Jermaine singing songs he wrote for J5 and doing a few of Michael's which could not be put onto DVD or be recorded/released.So nothing illegal went on there.People paid to see Jermaine.
Anything out there atm,is promoting his legacy,which he would have anyway dead or alive.It is his,regardless of him breathing or not.
The estate,family,bravado...do not promote his passing because to make money from it would get them in more than trouble.
His life insurance was cashed in by Sony before hand so nothing illegal there either.

(if anyone proves this to be wrong I will quit my job haha)

AMAZING POST Sinderella. Thank you so much for explaining the legal side of the hoax and thank you for this thread also.

[Sinderella]

AMAZING POST Sinderella. Thank you so much for explaining the legal side of the hoax and thank you for this thread also.

You are so very welcome,thank you for taking the time to read it =] xo

[scorpionchik]

Also,it is only illegal to fake your death if money is made from it ie your spouse claims your life insurance.
It is then fraud,theft,and you will go to prison for it.If the new album said 'in loving memory of Michael Jackson RIP' and people bought it,some based on the fact he was dead then it would be fraud-$$ made from his death.
Even TII dvd,at the start it says June 25th Michael was only days away from going to London,and weeks from the tour' nowhere on that DVD does it say RIP Michael Jackson,rest in peace king of pop,in loving memory of MJ...it only says dedicated to his children.
The estate,family,bravado...do not promote his passing because to make money from it would get them in more than trouble.
His life insurance was cashed in by Sony before hand so nothing illegal there either.
(if anyone proves this to be wrong I will quit my job haha)

Wrong sentence to the core, Sinderella.
I have explained several times about life insurance policy. This is huge wrong statement you made.
Sony, AEG, Estate, no one can cash life insurance policy but beneficiary. Unless you  mean different insurance.I will explain again.

see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

[encino_girl]

I want to comment on the legal implications one could face for faking their own death.

Is it a crime? What are the possible legal issues involved?

Unless you're pretending to be dead in order to play a practical joke on someone (in this case, forget legalities; you need a shrink), there can be serious legal consequences.

Sin has made excellent points; however, even if you do NOT benefit financially from faking your death, such an act can STILL lead you into hot legal waters as it can be seen as a civil wrongdoing. IOW, it is an intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress. You could be held liable for pain and suffering damages and medical (ie. counseling) costs.

As for monetary benefits, if you're found to be alive, you'd be held responsible for the costs of any investigations into the 'death', any proceedings resulting from the investigation, etc. (willful misuse of public resources). It is still fraud if your willful actions cost others money. If your heirs or your estate benefits from your faked death (even unknowingly), they are legal jeopardy as well. If your action placed an undue burden on the state or the executor of your estate, you are civilly liable.

If you assume a new identity, you are in essence, supplying false information to various government agencies (ie. SSA, driver's license agency, etc..). Just the filing of the false death certificate constitutes perjury, which is a criminal offense.

You may voluntarily walk away from your employment, family, and friends. People do it everyday. Generally, they are located by employment/tax records, and so forth.

Faking your death can only be done legally if law enforcement is involved.

[PeaceLoveHappiness]

I want to comment on the legal implications one could face for faking their own death.

Is it a crime? What are the possible legal issues involved?

Unless you're pretending to be dead in order to play a practical joke on someone (in this case, forget legalities; you need a shrink), there can be serious legal consequences.

Sin has made excellent points; however, even if you do NOT benefit financially from faking your death, such an act can STILL lead you into hot legal waters as it can be seen as a civil wrongdoing. IOW, it is an intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress. You could be held liable for pain and suffering damages and medical (ie. counseling) costs.

As for monetary benefits, if you're found to be alive, you'd be held responsible for the costs of any investigations into the 'death', any proceedings resulting from the investigation, etc. (willful misuse of public resources). It is still fraud if your willful actions cost others money. If your heirs or your estate benefits from your faked death (even unknowingly), they are legal jeopardy as well. If your action placed an undue burden on the state or the executor of your estate, you are civilly liable.

If you assume a new identity, you are in essence, supplying false information to various government agencies (ie. SSA, driver's license agency, etc..). Just the filing of the false death certificate constitutes perjury, which is a criminal offense.

You may voluntarily walk away from your employment, family, and friends. People do it everyday. Generally, they are located by employment/tax records, and so forth.

Faking your death can only be done legally if law enforcement is involved.

The part in bold is something I have been thinking for a while now.  I honestly believe that A LOT of people would try to sue Michael for the emotional stress his death caused them if he is found to be alive.  People may even come together and form a class action law suit.  Unless the Federal Government is involved, I seriously don't think Michael will ever come back.  Aside from all of the haters, who would hate him even more, there would be a lot of new haters (even some of his fans).  Many of these people would try to sue him.  It would be a complete mess.  Not to mention the death threats that he would receive.  He was already receiving death threats and threats of kidnapping his kids before this.  Now people would have another reason to threaten him.  No, if the Feds aren't involved, I don't expect a comeback.  It would be far too risky for Michael and his family.

[mjssoulmate]

I want to comment on the legal implications one could face for faking their own death.

Is it a crime? What are the possible legal issues involved?

Unless you're pretending to be dead in order to play a practical joke on someone (in this case, forget legalities; you need a shrink), there can be serious legal consequences.

Sin has made excellent points; however, even if you do NOT benefit financially from faking your death, such an act can STILL lead you into hot legal waters as it can be seen as a civil wrongdoing. IOW, it is an intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress. You could be held liable for pain and suffering damages and medical (ie. counseling) costs.

As for monetary benefits, if you're found to be alive, you'd be held responsible for the costs of any investigations into the 'death', any proceedings resulting from the investigation, etc. (willful misuse of public resources). It is still fraud if your willful actions cost others money. If your heirs or your estate benefits from your faked death (even unknowingly), they are legal jeopardy as well. If your action placed an undue burden on the state or the executor of your estate, you are civilly liable.

If you assume a new identity, you are in essence, supplying false information to various government agencies (ie. SSA, driver's license agency, etc..). Just the filing of the false death certificate constitutes perjury, which is a criminal offense.

You may voluntarily walk away from your employment, family, and friends. People do it everyday. Generally, they are located by employment/tax records, and so forth.

Faking your death can only be done legally if law enforcement is involved.

Reminds me of the BEE GEEs song I started a joke that had the whole world crying.

[encino_girl]

Also,it is only illegal to fake your death if money is made from it ie your spouse claims your life insurance.
It is then fraud,theft,and you will go to prison for it.If the new album said 'in loving memory of Michael Jackson RIP' and people bought it,some based on the fact he was dead then it would be fraud-$$ made from his death.
Even TII dvd,at the start it says June 25th Michael was only days away from going to London,and weeks from the tour' nowhere on that DVD does it say RIP Michael Jackson,rest in peace king of pop,in loving memory of MJ...it only says dedicated to his children.
The estate,family,bravado...do not promote his passing because to make money from it would get them in more than trouble.
His life insurance was cashed in by Sony before hand so nothing illegal there either.
(if anyone proves this to be wrong I will quit my job haha)

Wrong sentence to the core, Sinderella.
I have explained several times about life insurance policy. This is huge wrong statement you made.
Sony, AEG, Estate, no one can cash life insurance policy but beneficiary. Unless you  mean different insurance.I will explain again.

see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Actually, one can cash out a life insurance policy prior to death. They would only receive the value of the premiums they've paid, along with any maturity of cash benefits (if any). If Sony or AEG, and/or any of its subsidiaries or assigned were the policy owners they were within their legal rights to cash out the policy prior to his 'death'.

You need to differentiate between the policy owner and the beneficiary and their respective rights and roles as they pertain to life insurance.

Policy owner - one who purchases the policy on himself or another from an insurer.

Beneficiary - one who benefits financially from the occurrence of insured risk.

You cash out a policy prior to death. (Policy owner)

You cash in a policy upon occurrence of death. (Beneficiary)

[encino_girl]

I believe with every fiber of my being Michael had government assistance in faking his death. He wouldn't do this as a joke, as a means of temporarily escaping, nor would he be so reckless business wise.

IMO

[scorpionchik]

Also,it is only illegal to fake your death if money is made from it ie your spouse claims your life insurance.
It is then fraud,theft,and you will go to prison for it.If the new album said 'in loving memory of Michael Jackson RIP' and people bought it,some based on the fact he was dead then it would be fraud-$$ made from his death.
Even TII dvd,at the start it says June 25th Michael was only days away from going to London,and weeks from the tour' nowhere on that DVD does it say RIP Michael Jackson,rest in peace king of pop,in loving memory of MJ...it only says dedicated to his children.
The estate,family,bravado...do not promote his passing because to make money from it would get them in more than trouble.
His life insurance was cashed in by Sony before hand so nothing illegal there either.
(if anyone proves this to be wrong I will quit my job haha)

Wrong sentence to the core, Sinderella.
I have explained several times about life insurance policy. This is huge wrong statement you made.
Sony, AEG, Estate, no one can cash life insurance policy but beneficiary. Unless you  mean different insurance.I will explain again.

see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Actually, one can cash out a life insurance policy prior to death. They would only receive the value of the premiums they've paid, along with any maturity of cash benefits (if any). If Sony or AEG, and/or any of its subsidiaries or assigned were the policy owners they were within their legal rights to cash out the policy prior to his 'death'.

You need to differentiate between the policy owner and the beneficiary.

Policy owner - one who purchases the policy on himself or another from an insurer.

Beneficiary - one who benefits financially from the occurrence of insured risk.

You cash out a policy prior to death.

You cash in a policy upon occurrence of death.

Excuse me, but  I am proficient person in the field we are talking about . The policyholder can cash his policy money, not Michael's policy.
The other  thing you should pay attention on when I say IT DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE OF POLICY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.I see there is a confusion about insurance policy wrongly called "life insurance", whereas initially article was about AEG cashing policy that never happened. Again, before concert there is a type of policy AEG purchased called special event or similar that would cover ACCIDENTAL DEATH OF THE PRINCIPAL, MICHAEL, therefore they called life insurance. But in nature it is NOT a common life insurance policy. The only money AEG could get from that policy if there would have been EVENT CANCELLATION clause. Prior to death policy, if it is Michael as a named insured, no one else can cash but himself before death. I doubt Michael had that kind of policy, AEG can't cash MJ's policy money notbefore nor after his death. Sorry, I am going to stop here, can't explain the whole insurance industry here.

[encino_girl]

Also,it is only illegal to fake your death if money is made from it ie your spouse claims your life insurance.
It is then fraud,theft,and you will go to prison for it.If the new album said 'in loving memory of Michael Jackson RIP' and people bought it,some based on the fact he was dead then it would be fraud-$$ made from his death.
Even TII dvd,at the start it says June 25th Michael was only days away from going to London,and weeks from the tour' nowhere on that DVD does it say RIP Michael Jackson,rest in peace king of pop,in loving memory of MJ...it only says dedicated to his children.
The estate,family,bravado...do not promote his passing because to make money from it would get them in more than trouble.
His life insurance was cashed in by Sony before hand so nothing illegal there either.
(if anyone proves this to be wrong I will quit my job haha)

Wrong sentence to the core, Sinderella.
I have explained several times about life insurance policy. This is huge wrong statement you made.
Sony, AEG, Estate, no one can cash life insurance policy but beneficiary. Unless you  mean different insurance.I will explain again.

see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Actually, one can cash out a life insurance policy prior to death. They would only receive the value of the premiums they've paid, along with any maturity of cash benefits (if any). If Sony or AEG, and/or any of its subsidiaries or assigned were the policy owners they were within their legal rights to cash out the policy prior to his 'death'.

You need to differentiate between the policy owner and the beneficiary.

Policy owner - one who purchases the policy on himself or another from an insurer.

Beneficiary - one who benefits financially from the occurrence of insured risk.

You cash out a policy prior to death.

You cash in a policy upon occurrence of death.

Excuse me, but  I am proficient person in the field we are talking about . The policyholder can cash his policy money, not Michael's policy.
The other  thing you should pay attention on when I say IT DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE OF POLICY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.I see there is a confusion about insurance policy wrongly called "life insurance", whereas initially article was about AEG cashing policy that never happened. Again, before concert there is a type of policy AEG purchased called special event or similar that would cover ACCIDENTAL DEATH OF THE PRINCIPAL, MICHAEL, therefore they called life insurance. But in nature it is NOT a common life insurance policy. The only money AEG could get from that policy if there would have been EVENT CANCELLATION clause. Prior to death policy, if it is Michael as a named insured, no one else can cash but himself before death. I doubt Michael had that kind of policy, AEG can't cash MJ's policy money notbefore nor after his death. Sorry, I am going to stop here, can't explain the whole insurance industry here.

You might need a refresher course.