TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[bec]

Marumjjj

Martin Blount (THE FIREFIGHTER / PARAMEDIC).
Dr. Conrad Murray Prelim: Day 3 Part I

Quote of the declaration:
"Now at UCLA. The crowd was all over the place. Dr. Murray made a request to put a towel over to cover his face. I thought it was a reasonable request.

When They left the house, a man with a camera started running down the street and put the camera right up against the window and was running with the ambulance, filming. Because of that event, it Seemed a reasonable request by Dr. Murray to cover Michael Jackson's face ".

I think this statement by land strip photo of Ben in the ambulance.

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Though if the dummy looked like MJ, why cover up-- only if it did NOT look like him, as a real body would not.

But again, you have to ask, is this an accurate statement of events? Is there any way to back it up? Is there any supportive evidence to this claim? Or is all we have to go on with this lead is this one statement from the Pre-lim trial?

Because we have no way of collaborating this, in my mind, it is a rumor, much like the temperature of the bedroom at Carrolwood, MJ looking like an old Asian man, MJ collapsing in front of Prince, paramedics and Murray stopped to put MJ's wig on before leaving the house, etc etc etc. The statement has never been collaborated, substantiated, or backed up, it just sits out there, alone, with no support. Stuff like this I think we shouldn't put much stock into, we can't really, considering the amount of rumors flying in all directions, you have to sift out the BS somehow.

[Thriller4ever]

there are more arguments FOR a dummy...than for a corpse...Maybe, it was a dummy after all.

Yes, you're right, I should change the focus now, my thoughts turn to the legal, then the statements in the trial are false, false autopsy, doctors at UCLA too, forensic ...
False judgment too? and if you was real trial but with a cause "false and armed" is a crime of perjury, I do not know, I can define now.

You bring up a good point, but I'd argue that all of those statements would be false anyway if they were talking about a real body that isn't MJ. That's still perjury because it is NOT Michael Jackson and they are professing that it is. Regarding perjury, again, legitimate concern, but do we have a REAL court or do we have a HOAX court? I have been arguing hoax court, therefore no perjury, but TS brought up a good point. If it's 100% a hoax court, why bother with the word "alleged" when referring to the victim (and incident and date) if it's just a movie, those words are not needed. Their inclusion nullifies the verdict, and ensures legality in what APPEARS to the observer to be real court.

I don't think court is real, but I think it looks real enough, or seems real enough to necessitate the use of the words "alleged" to nullify it, as well as to prevent entrapment (someone believing it is real because it looks so very much like a real deal, ie, not enough obvious clues present to attest to it's hoax status), so they threw "alleged" in there at the end to CYA lol.

Personally, I think we need to change our thinking away from the original 3-way theory (only 3 people needed to pull it off) towards many more people being in on it then originally thought, and see the forest for the trees. MJ needed all his ducks in a row to pull this off, and it would necessitate a great deal of cooperation from entities along the way. I think this is a massive project which many hands/minds/and bodies were needed to coordinate launching and pulling off the Greatest Public Live Illusion of our lifetime, perhaps ever done in history. He didn't leave the success of his hoax up to chance and luck (fooling first responders) I firmly believe.

TS said things would start to fall into place. Perhaps It's just wishful thinking taking over at this 11th hour but I think I'm starting to see that now.

This hoax is definitely impossible with only a few working/involved. Though TS said to start off by taking in people 'as few as possible', this hoax is simply vast! it's not limited to any particular person, or an incident to involve 'as few as possible'. And if the hoax needs to be successful, there has to a massive team behind Michael and several people co-operating.

If several people are co-operating with Michael in the hoax, I can't refuse the FBI theory. FBI needs to be there at all times to put things on track and maybe FBI is the one to convince (or even force) individuals in co-operating with the hoax. Otherwise, it is quite impossible. And without FBI, there exists the risk of 'leaking' secrets or information about the hoax to third parties.

The use of alleged was needed. If the FBI is involved, it is mandatory to include "alleged" in the verdict. The court is half hoax and half sting. It is definitely not true, but not that fake. I believe it's a 'sting in the hoax'. If sting operation is really present, it would be necessary to include 'alleged' to again bring the hoax on the path of legality.

But this again brings me back to the question, is there any chance that the individuals [ on whom the sting is being operated] check this forum to know what really is going on in Michael's hoax and know that there's a sting on them?

[paula-c]

But this again brings me back to the question, is there any chance that the individuals [ on whom the sting is being operated] check this forum to know what really is going on in Michael's hoax and know that there's a sting on them?

good question, Yes, just go to the internet  can be read everything says here.

[bec]

In regards to the subject of a [legal, organized] sting operation [with the intent of procuring charges brought against someone in a court of law directly as a result of], I don't think so. TS's statement backs up this theory I have been leaning towards for some time:

... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)

 :th_bravo:

This answer is close enough, for our purposes.  In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).

I think we are looking more at a "lessons learned"-sting as opposed to a, charges-brought-in-direct-connection-with-evidence-collected-in-the-process-of--sting. A metaphorical sting, if you will consider, a figurative "sting", and operation that masquerades as a "sting" for purposes of teaching a lesson as opposed to bringing criminal charges.

For example, charges are NOT going to be brought against the public for believing the BS. Simply the goal is for lessons to be learned, public service message, and all.

Add to that this post by TS:

Broad perspective is close.
Makes the sting an artistic one ... 

 :icon_exclaim:    :icon_exclaim:    :icon_exclaim:

... and not a criminal one.

 :computer-losy-smiley:   :computer-losy-smiley:   :computer-losy-smiley:

The sting IS artistic...

...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.

If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.

Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.

[bec]

@Thriller4ever:

If several people are co-operating with Michael in the hoax, I can't refuse the FBI theory. FBI needs to be there at all times to put things on track and maybe FBI is the one to convince (or even force) individuals in co-operating with the hoax. Otherwise, it is quite impossible. And without FBI, there exists the risk of 'leaking' secrets or information about the hoax to third parties.

I agree. Getting clearance and assistance from the FBI would explain several things. If MJ has the FBI on board, that explains HOW it has been kept so perfectly secret, as well rectifying the 333 pages of files being released (however-- I still believe confidentiality contracts exist and are standard for any entertainment production currently pending-- but FBI backing would add that certain level of serious legality to everyone's adherence to their contract; an insurance policy/second layer of protection, if you will). But MJ procuring FBI approval and clearance does not in itself equate their direct involvement in the hoax.

[pepper]

Thanks, Paula-c!

I never could figure out the writing on that shirt!

For some reason, I always imagined Dr. Murray would be in a suit, like the security guys.  Similar to the "Dr. Murray" in this re-enactment from VH1 Crime Scenes -
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But I guess this was the "reality" --

"Dr. Murray pacing in UCLA Waiting Room"
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"Dr. Murray leaving UCLA"
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[ellyd]

I tried to put it down into a kind of "script of keys" or basic element map. I had to cut it in pieces or else it wouldn't be legible.
I don't know if everybody is familiar with reading such a map - one starts on top and reads down and round clock-wise.
It is a draft only.

I think that the illusion part (and part of the sting) was the exchange of 4 alternative bodies during all those transports of which 1 was not present (MJ not dead but made believe to be dead and be the "what" that was transported) and the coffin (red transports) was empty. There was a dummy coming to UCLA and a corpse leaving to the Coroner. This is a speculation of my part due to what I read so far.

I think from boiling this down to the key elements, it is clear that if "MJ body" would have been "MJ real dead corpse", each of the elements / persons marked in blue wouldn't have been necessary to be "in" - yet we know from whispers that they were "in". The hoax got existence only due to the fact that MJ's body was not the "what" that was transported to UCLA.

The genius part in this case is that in each and every important part that needed to be covered, there is a blue spot thus a person that directs on behalf of / with the directives of MJ.

All those persons who remain white may be targets of the sting / artistic edutainment.
All elements with a frame may potentially play a role in the case, yet I was unsure if that was true.

Open for all your suggestions.















Add - I gave it a try - hopefully Souza won't kill me for the size:
This is the complete map - read it clock-wise.

[bec]

Wow, now that's some elaborate work, ellyd. Any link to the pdf file we can access? I'm running out the door but will review this in depth later. I'm impressed!

[Dontwalkaway]

Did they show the dummy, mindseye?

They actually showed two dummies while talking about CPR being done on them.

I'm leaning toward a dummy being used at certain points.    I haven't been saying too much but I've been watchin !   Good observations and great chart ellyd.  It shows how mind blowing and complicated this is.   

[Sarahli]

Concerning “who is supposed to be fooled” I think it’s extremely easy to fool the fans/people and the media, so yes anything would easily do the trick. Therefore it seems to me like for the success of the “death hoax” the main difficulty isn’t about working the illusion for the public eyes but for the people who are closer to the situation and in fact closer to the body. It’s imperative they don’t become a burden or high risk of failure and this throughout the duration of the whole hoax and not only during the events of 25 June 2009.

That’s why I still think hospice patient (and dummy for the pictures). With a real body you have less people in the know which means no risk of information leakage at all which cannot be 100% fulfilled just with contract signing or FBI control alone. If people believe it’s all true that’s the best scenario, you don’t have people to monitor all along in order to be sure they don’t speak.

Also it maintains the needed realism for events recollection which leaves less room for errors at a later date for a crucial event broadcasted live on TV i.e. the testimonies in court. Also as stated by TS someone could have showed up in an unexpected manner, this is a risk to be taken into account, so again only a real body could cover this possibility. The ambulance did the travel from Carolwood to UCLA and something could have happened along the way, again a real body is safer than a dummy…

I really think that the reports that were in the news about Michael’s health and looks (had 6 months to live, lost a lot of weight, surgery, wigs, etc.) served an express purpose which is to confuse people on Michael’s real appearance. Even some fans didn’t recognize Michael. So it would be easy to fool people with someone looking a tiny bit like him. It paved the way for that.

Only a few key people would be needed to make sure things go in the required direction.

[wishingstar]

@ellyd......great post, love how you lay everything out......it reminds me of a post I did, that lead to others.  Here it is, maybe it will help in some way.....
great thoughts, thank you!

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Blessings Always

[Thriller4ever]

In regards to the subject of a [legal, organized] sting operation [with the intent of procuring charges brought against someone in a court of law directly as a result of], I don't think so. TS's statement backs up this theory I have been leaning towards for some time:

... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)

 :th_bravo:

This answer is close enough, for our purposes.  In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).

I think we are looking more at a "lessons learned"-sting as opposed to a, charges-brought-in-direct-connection-with-evidence-collected-in-the-process-of--sting. A metaphorical sting, if you will consider, a figurative "sting", and operation that masquerades as a "sting" for purposes of teaching a lesson as opposed to bringing criminal charges.

For example, charges are NOT going to be brought against the public for believing the BS. Simply the goal is for lessons to be learned, public service message, and all.

The sting IS artistic...

...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.

If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.

Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.

As long as the general public believes the media, is blinded by it and is completely ignorant,the criminals are free to commit their crimes. But if the public is completely aware of situations, those criminals are forced to be just. This hoax, if it involves sting, is for sure to make the public aware. That awareness might lead to a better world as the established institutions will, at any cost, have to be good in their conduct and dealings. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they have learned their lesson.

Criminals must be given an opportunity to change. But these criminals are not petty thieves who started stealing out of poverty, hunger or lack of education and literacy. These criminals are 'the people in power'. They, in the conscious minds have resolved mislead the public, benefit out of them, and carry out any agenda through the means of media, entertainment and others. So a sting is necessary to make the public aware. And I'm also sure that it targets all departments that, at this present moment, rule and influence the world. But I'm not sure how this is all going to unfold. Many people are going to be revealed who are deliberately guilty of their crimes. I don't know what's going to happen to them...

But there definitely will be a revolt by the public.
----------------------
@ellyd ...u did a great job on this !!!

[Dontwalkaway]

If he "really put his soul into it", that would be if MJ himself actually died, and was brought back to life somehow later at UCLA, but we were not told about that.  Miracle resurrection...

I have similar types of thoughts MJonMind !  It also led me to think about things like resurrection and reincarnation.  I think there is a spiritual side to this that we have to put together with all the facts and events.   Both of these things have been going on at the same time.  That's just what it seems like or feels like to me.

[TS_comments]

... P.S. Wishing TS and everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving  :icon_razz:

With L.O.V.E. always.

Thank you!   :icon_razz:

And I hope that everyone had a very nice Thanksgiving, with family and/or friends.

[mindseye]

In reality though, have we any reason to think Spike Lee is in on the hoax (and therefore sending clues in this docu)?  I was thinking this was just a genuine tribute to MJ.

I'd like to see the context in which those dummies/CPR were shown.

Again about the BAD25 film, imo it was as if it were a reintroduction to MJ the person versus the tabloid media BS. Reminding the public what a genius the man is, showing different sides of Michael. There were a few things I thought might be hoaxy. OR maybe it was to get fans and ppl thinking about it again or questioning things?

The two things mentioned before the cpr dummy was:

- The movie Third Man was the inspiration for the look of smooth criminal.
- The photo of MJ/mirrors is shown while his voice trainer talks about different tones of his voice, received a phone call from MJ where he spoke in low tone, which said he preferred not to use.

Followed by the cpr image...
Leave me alone, saying it was ahead of its time, collage of images meticulously cut and arranged, about tabloid media… he says ppl don’t know me and believe the media.



@ellyd That's an awesome map you have! Taking a look at it now.

The sting IS artistic...

...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.

If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.

Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.

I agree! ... but I also think there is more to the story, perhaps someone planned to harm him and he was a step ahead. Double sting. Maybe TS can say more about it?   :icon_geek:

thanks TS, same to you  :icon_e_biggrin: