Selective Belief... or my big rant

[PinkTopaz]

Mo, GirlSaturday, I don't really think that's what MyKidsMum meant. MKM, if you're still here, I don't think that's what you meant, because I know that you barely believe in a hoax. I have a lot of respect for you because I know that you have mourned and mourned like the people who don't believe in a hoax at all, and yet I think you were trying to say kind of what Mo and GS are saying, that we don't know Michael personally and that he has flaws, not the perfect PR image. In fact pretty much all fans, (though I don't think we should use that word for us) know this, they wonder what he's like in private without the PR, and they know that he shows what he wants to show. I myself have said this a lot on here (just look at my apology thread in the Messages to Michael section!), and I've also said many times that his whole life can't revolve around us, because I know that we all care about him and don't want him to overwork himself for us. The only reason I melted down so badly last week was because I saw theories I hadn't seen before that suggested that Michael has used only doubles and not appeared at all since the Bad era, and that he used them for concerts, and reading those kind of triggered a hidden anger I didn't even know I had, and I feel quite sorry now for exploding the way I did. Those are the only aspects of using fakes that really bother me, though.

I know that celebrities do what they must or whatever, but I was always taught to make the most of money, to always only get what's really worth it. I always see everything the way it's going to affect the people, like you and me and especially the poorer folk, first. In this case, if he used a double on the stage, it's not showing the people whom they paid to see, as simple as that. I cannot tell how much I hate fans bothering Michael in his normal life, harassing him for nothing, and the stage is supposed to be the place where they're SUPPOSED to see him, and to give them a "random  guy in makeup" is robbing of them of what is most likely their only chance to see him. Just take everything else out for a moment, go back to Dangerous or History and say you're a single mother that finally saved up enough to go. You think you've had the experience of a lifetime, you've seen the King of Pop, even if you didn't "feel his vibes" or even sing live. Then years later you believe he hoaxed his death and you read what happened.. All in all, you don't have to get furious with Michael (I am not anymore), but with all other aspects of the situation removed, it's still wrong, it's still a poor choice on his behalf, because you know what's better? If the situations were such that he even needed to use doubles, than he shouldn't have done shows at the time at all, simple as that. I think that the most honest route is always the best, and I've seen PLENTY of complaints about all of his lip-syncing from lots of dissatisfied fans- if you were to ask them "would you rather see a half-butted show now or wait a few years or so and see an authentic, real Michael Jackson concert?" Even if you don't ask about doubles, I'll bet all of my money that most would say the latter. I'm just saying that if he did this, it was a very poor choice if you look at it from the view of the people, especially the poorer fans, and even for him, because he wouldn't have had to hassle unnesscarily, without deceiving the hard-working people who dream of seeing him..

MKM, please don't leave the board! You are a loved and respected, intelligent member!

[Kuki]

Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert?  :lol:

I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!

I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)

I have never believed in the doubles theory. Never will.
I have never believed in the twins theory. Never will.
I have never believed in anything related to the Illuminati, NWO, etc. (not saying they don't exist---because I don't know if they do or not and I don't care. But IF they do, I don't think they have any involvement in whatever happened on June 25.) Never will.
I have never believed that Dave Dave is MJ on LKL. Never will.
I have never believed in a green screened funeral at FL. Never will.
I have never believed in the MJ-Jumping-Out-of-the-Coroner's Van video. Never will.
I have never believed that MJ's "body" moved in the helicopter (because if he is dead, he can't move...and if he's alive...he would NOT need to be in that helicopter!). Never will.
I have never believed in many other things that a lot of beLIEvers seem to cling to, simply because I don't need to, and I never will.

Know what I DO believe in?
Michael Jackson

I also believe that none of the other items listed above need to be true in order for this hoax to be real. I also believe that if you DO believe in those things, hey, more power to ya. I will not disrespect you. And that which irritates me will make me stronger if I just avoid those threads.    And believe me when I say, that's something I do often.

What I see as the biggest challenge for most of us, and I've said this before, is that there are simply limits to what kind of "investigation" can actually be done solely via the Internet. There is only so much information that can be found online. So as someone else has said, we've turned over pretty much all the stones. And in a lot of ways, we've hit a brick wall, in my opinion. And the result of that is re-hashing of posts we've dissected all too many times, and the exploration of topics which are shaky, at best. And it has made me want to leave the community too a time or two.

Problem for me is that even though I'm pretty sure Michael is alive, I'm not 100% convinced. I keep hoping that by staying in touch here and with my own digging online, that eventually I'll find that one bit of information that tips the scales for me...that convinces me...one way or the other. Because then, and only then, will I find any peace. The truth is that if I knew for sure, with no doubts, that Michael is alive, I wouldn't need to come here anymore. I'd be content because I know the truth. And if I knew he was dead, with no doubts, I'd feel the same, because I've really already accepted that he could be gone and made my peace with that possibility.

My best advice for everyone is what I continue to say...don't search for evidence of the hoax....SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH. It will make you more objective. Use logic. Use reason. Use discretion. Be rational. Be thoughtful. And hey, being hopeful doesn't hurt either. And remember this: if Michael is alive, we can hurt him just as much as help him by what we say in this community, and in what we do. And if he is dead, there are a lot of "theories" and "evidence" that could be considered disrespectful to Michael, his memory, and his legacy. And since his children are part of his legacy, it's important to remember that one day they WILL read this stuff (if they don't already), so IF he is dead, they should be a very important consideration in what we say here.

This could have been my post.... It kinda scares me, it's exactly how I feel and think about it! You're not my double, are you? ;-)  :mrgreen:

[GirlSaturday]

I am so happy to hear that those ladies took your advice and stayed away from danger.  It's just horrible that the trolls would prey upon vulnerable fans who believed that they could meet MJ that way. You are a great friend for helping those ladies see the truth about that setup. 8-)

Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert?  :lol:

I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!

I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)

[MJJ1982]

I am so happy to hear that those ladies took your advice and stayed away from danger.  It's just horrible that the trolls would prey upon vulnerable fans who believed that they could meet MJ that way. You are a great friend for helping those ladies see the truth about that setup. 8-)

Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert?  :lol:

I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!

I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)

Unfortunatly I was one of them who got warned by Kuki...

[mmz]

I agree with you...
I am on this site from the beginning for searching the truth,but I don't buy the double,twins theory....and sometimes i find quiet  offensive the way pictures are manipulated and when some michael is called "imposter"..
I also don't believe the illuminati theory..
But I stay here just for sharing the hoax death belief. I think that is the real deal.And apart form this post,i never judged the adm beliefs.It is their site and they of course can expose their belief.Always with respect...

[GirlSaturday]

The good news is that you were kept out of harm's way.
It is probably a lesson that you won't forget either.
Isn't it nice knowing that you have a good friend who will look out for your best interests like that? 8-)  

I am so happy to hear that those ladies took your advice and stayed away from danger.  It's just horrible that the trolls would prey upon vulnerable fans who believed that they could meet MJ that way. You are a great friend for helping those ladies see the truth about that setup. 8-)

Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert?  :lol:

I don't believe in the doubles but I certanly dont believe those fake MJ's as well! In my country there has been one on Hyves for a while, same thing, wanted to meet people etc.. I warned my friends who believed he was the real MJ, that is was a setup. Finally it came out I was right! I am so glad they didnt go to meet him, I was afraid of what would happen if they went!

I am convinced that Michael would blow his own cover by getting in touch with some of us in this way. People, he is a GENIUS, not an idiot! ;-)

Unfortunatly I was one of them who got warned by Kuki...

[MJJ1982]

The good news is that you were kept out of harm's way.
It is probably a lesson that you won't forget either.
Isn't it nice knowing that you have a good friend who will look out for your best interests like that? 8-)  

Yes it is  
But I was a little naive, probably my emotions that played a major role...

[the arabian nights]

i want to thank mo and souza for not locking this thread and letting pp express themselves

thanks

[lilith]

I would probably call myself a fan but that does not mean I'm blind, in denial or delusional. Even if Michael would've told a lie sometimes, indeed been a drug addict, "cheated" on Debbie, been manipulative, etc. I would still love him the same (i.e alot   ). I love the whole package that is Michael Jackson. These past 10 months I have (and probably many of you guys too) discovered new things about Michael that I didn't know about before, not because I think he wouldn't do this or that but simply because I didn't research it as much before. Porn at Neverland, secret girlfriends, discussing one's love life with friends, the love for KFC  :lol: etc, I know these things are apart of Michael's private life but I have to admit that I love reading about it. It brings joy to my heart to know that Michael did manage to have some "normality" in his life (although many refuse to believe these things putting more pressure on the man we're supposed to support and love), I for one truly believed him when he said he wanted to be able to just go grocery shopping.

I could watch videos of Michael doing absolutely nothing or listen to him talking about whatever forever, I guess that's why I'd call myself a fan. Someone mentioned being embarrassed for Michael and not wanting to watch his appearances sometimes and I understand that people react/perceive things differently but isn't that a bit harsh on Michael? I'm sure people's expectations also contributed to Michael's secluded and what some people might call "odd" behaviour. We all do mistakes and behave strangely sometimes the big difference is that Michael's mistakes get scrutinized by the rest of the world.

I do not believe in the doubles or twin theory and yes, to me it can become very frustrating. Sometimes one just wants to say wtf that's bs but I chose not to because I believe that is very disrespectful. I respect other people's opnions (as long as they're not of malicious nature) and if I want to present my disagreeing opinion I try to do it in a respectful way. Sorry for the long post   .

  You are right! And you are the only one who realizes that it is harsh on Michael. I am the one who mentioned, that sometimes I felt embarrassed when I saw Michael.

I always loved him and I still love him and I would never really taunt him for obviously feeling unconfident sometimes and hence behaving awkwardly. I just knew that I will be confronted about it by my environment (my parents, my sister, my teachers, my friends) - who all knew that I loved Michael and who always "knew" that he was crazy. In my feeling it was me myself being in that situation and I was embarrassed like I was him. Of course that is not Michael's problem and I don't blame him for it at all. My point in mentioning it is that sometimes it would have been even comfortable to say: "Oh that was NOT Michael. Michael is perfect and would never be in a situation like that."

I know Michael is not perfect he is human and he has flaws and me too, I love him!

But it is quite okay to be harsh with Michael - you realize that?  :?

[rag doll]

One more thing to consider in the spirit of open-mindedness as we discuss fake vs real...

Recap: Many forum members reject the idea of doubles. I get it I get I get it.  :lol:

What I don't get is how easily some hoax forum members here and elsewhere can believe in the tweets and forum posts from so-called friends, insiders and occassionally "MJ" himself. People can believe in and follow a fake MJ on twitter or a forum yet not believe in a real live double perfoming in concert.  That I really don't get.

Over the past 10 months many amazing things have occurred regarding false people and their false information.  Some of you may be unaware that there  was a period several months ago when trolls invaded  the forums and created all sorts of havoc. These people are tricky and very good at what they do.They would provide cryptic messages and leave myterious comments. Many forum members became excited and created all sorts of wonderful BAM dates afterward to follow them. Then there were the twitter accounts that had "MJ" in the name so fans were quickly believing that Michael Jackson was tweeting them personally. My favorite was when a "Michael Jackson" appeared on another forum and forum members started begging this person to PM them so that they could provide phone numbers to receive private phone calls. I witnessed these reactions.  It is not made up. Then there was the scary and dangerous period when forum members received PMs from people who offered to introduce them to MJ but requested secret meetings to get to know them first. A few people got sucked into that trick  and later  regretted it. Again I'm not making this up. If it weren't so blatantly sad, it might be considered comical. These were not just one or two people being tricked and hurt but dozens...maybe more.

 Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more..

How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert?  :lol:

[/b]

Thank you for challenging this (for some reason delicate) question - I don´t get it as well.  :roll:

Fans, Non-Fans, Follower, Supporter, Admirer or whatever you prefer - don´t we call ourselves MJ beLIEvers?
Where is the respect for each other and the openness of mind in these neverending discussions?
Where is the love - the unconditional, unselfish one?
That´s kind of sad.  :cry:

We´re all here for one reason...  L.O.V.E.
So let´s unite and not seperate.

[mykidsmum]

Mykidsmum, you know what...I absolutely  agree with you!
I`ve never placed on Michael the expectation of the public image that he desired us to percieve him. Noone deserves that kind of pressure. God knows how many flaws and craziness that I have myself. Everyone is ''weird''. That is the thing that almost no one wants to accept: we are all screwed up one way or another. Ignorance is to crucify someone for simply beeing human.
Look at yourself in the mirror:  How many things you would like to change about yourself? How many secrets that you have that you want the world to NEVER know about. How many times you lied? How many situations you manipulated so that things would look good for you? Imagine now that you have the means to do all that. You have all the power and money to mold reality and yourself just like you always dreamed of doing. So there you have it...
Even a child instinctively knows how to manipulate others ( just think about a baby crying for his mother`s attention).
We are all manipulators. Some more, some less...
Bottom line...Michael is Michael with all his flaws, weirdness, genius, love, hate, lies, truths, manipulation, fears, hopes...
That is why I love Will You Be There.Its the most heartfelt song that I know. He was asking someone if he would still be loved when he showed his violence, his anguish, his fears, frustrations. Would he still be tolereted with all his burdens? Would someone still accept him if they knew that he was just a human trying his best to survive?
Or would this person prefer the fabricated character over ther real man? He was afraid of that answer I think. That's his tragedy in my opinion. He looked for love and acceptance from the outside so desperately only because he couldnt find that inside of himself.
And this is such a paradox, taking into consideration his pride and desire in depicting himself as a hero, a warrior, a king, a larger then life phenomenon. I guess pride is also a form of insecurity.
I can only love him knowing he is only human after all. Just like I am. Not a super human. Just human.

I had to stop reading and reply to this...you have a way of saying exactly what I and others are thinking.  Bravo!  I think you hit the nail SQUARE on the head!  We are all like this and the difference is we are not crucified when we let the real us show.  Loved your post!

[Nakiska]

Mykidsmum,
thank you!  
Most of the times I cant express myself properly in english, but your post was so true and touched me deep inside that I felt the need to say all this.

[loveratheart4mj]

I loved this post and how all of you guys also stood up for MJ. Applauds!!!!!!                

[alovesmichael]

I would probably call myself a fan but that does not mean I'm blind, in denial or delusional. Even if Michael would've told a lie sometimes, indeed been a drug addict, "cheated" on Debbie, been manipulative, etc. I would still love him the same (i.e alot   ). I love the whole package that is Michael Jackson. These past 10 months I have (and probably many of you guys too) discovered new things about Michael that I didn't know about before, not because I think he wouldn't do this or that but simply because I didn't research it as much before. Porn at Neverland, secret girlfriends, discussing one's love life with friends, the love for KFC  :lol: etc, I know these things are apart of Michael's private life but I have to admit that I love reading about it. It brings joy to my heart to know that Michael did manage to have some "normality" in his life (although many refuse to believe these things putting more pressure on the man we're supposed to support and love), I for one truly believed him when he said he wanted to be able to just go grocery shopping.

I could watch videos of Michael doing absolutely nothing or listen to him talking about whatever forever, I guess that's why I'd call myself a fan. Someone mentioned being embarrassed for Michael and not wanting to watch his appearances sometimes and I understand that people react/perceive things differently but isn't that a bit harsh on Michael? I'm sure people's expectations also contributed to Michael's secluded and what some people might call "odd" behaviour. We all do mistakes and behave strangely sometimes the big difference is that Michael's mistakes get scrutinized by the rest of the world.

I do not believe in the doubles or twin theory and yes, to me it can become very frustrating. Sometimes one just wants to say wtf that's bs but I chose not to because I believe that is very disrespectful. I respect other people's opnions (as long as they're not of malicious nature) and if I want to present my disagreeing opinion I try to do it in a respectful way. Sorry for the long post   .

  You are right! And you are the only one who realizes that it is harsh on Michael. I am the one who mentioned, that sometimes I felt embarrassed when I saw Michael.

I always loved him and I still love him and I would never really taunt him for obviously feeling unconfident sometimes and hence behaving awkwardly. I just knew that I will be confronted about it by my environment (my parents, my sister, my teachers, my friends) - who all knew that I loved Michael and who always "knew" that he was crazy. In my feeling it was me myself being in that situation and I was embarrassed like I was him. Of course that is not Michael's problem and I don't blame him for it at all. My point in mentioning it is that sometimes it would have been even comfortable to say: "Oh that was NOT Michael. Michael is perfect and would never be in a situation like that."

I know Michael is not perfect he is human and he has flaws and me too, I love him!

But it is quite okay to be harsh with Michael - you realize that?  :?

I understand what you mean and I hope you didn't feel like I was criticizing you... I just wanted to perhaps give you examples of seeing things in different light. Since most of us love Michael we feel his pain, his joy, his awkwardness and I guess this is what you're refering to? Thanks for explaining   . I could watch michael anytime and just smile, I do however have difficulties watching things where people deliberatetly try to humiliate him (e.g. that MTV award that wasn't an award or whatever). Those things are just mean. About your environment, they already have their mind set on what they think so just ignore it, whatever they think they can't be blind to what Michael have done for this world - crossing barriers, preaching love and understanding, the charities etc. So no matter what they think about hi, those things can't be denied or overlooked.

[i[MISS]my[KING]]

im going to have to agree with mykidsmum.

when you look at a close up shot you know its either michael or not. not once. NOT NEVER. has it been a question of being him or not (to me)  you can tell when its not him. (as the look is completely off) NO ONE can pull michael off. he is original, unique and one of a kind. and I love him so much.