Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Hoax Investigation => General Hoax Investigation => Other Odd Things => Topic started by: all4loveandbelieve on October 22, 2010, 10:16:50 PM
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I hope this was not already posted If so lock it. I checked couldn't find anything
I don't know if you already knew this. Like I said I haven't watched Oprah. I have a very hard time to believe that Michael would taunt LMP that he would have babies with Debbie Rowe. I guess this was a untrustworthy relationship. Michael did not trusl LMP and LMP did not trust Michael.
Lisa Marie Presley and Michael Jackson's 18-month marriage in the mid-1990s started to crumble when the King of Pop told her his friend Debbie Rowe had offered to have children with him..
Presley hurt by Rowe baby taunts
Enlarge photo .The rocker admits she was far from shocked when her then-ex announced his new wife Rowe was carrying his first child months after he divorced Presley - because he used to taunt her with the idea while they were married.
In a revealing TV interview with Oprah Winfrey, Presley says, "I knew it was a bit of a retaliatory act on his part because I didn't have a baby and I know that she was there the whole time telling him she would do it. He would tell me... 'If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it.'
"I was like, 'What is that? Not gonna entice me,' so we would get into arguments because that really wasn't how to handle it - but that's how he knew how to handle it."
And Presley admits those arguments were the beginning of the end for the marriage: "I understand him so well now but, at that time, I was hurt and I did things that hurt him."
She reveals that her closeness with her former husband Danny Keogh, who she had two children with, was a big issue for Jackson.
Presley explains, "I was very torn because I broke up my family and I left my husband for Michael... While I was with Michael I was still trying to process what I had done... I felt, 'How could I have done that to somebody...?'
"Danny was still very much part of my life and Michael didn't know what to do with that sometimes and that made him uncomfortable. I would take a vacation and Danny would go and Michael would get upset.. and then he would disappear for a couple of weeks and I couldn't find him.
"We hit rough waters and we would argue - three-day arguments sometimes, taking a break to eat and sleep. I'd have to say that I really admire that he really gave it (our marriage) a good shot. I didn't appreciate it then and I wish I did."
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I agree with you. He is a smart man, he did right now to join.
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex? I followed this "marriage" as it ran its course, LMP and her mother are opportunists who are always looking for relevancy. Pricilla (sp) was NEVER happy about their union and even once insinuated that MJ actually wanted something from her other than love. Also, she made a mockery of their marriage when she talked about it, and she never took a stand in his favor during the trial. I wasn't impressed wit her interview, and I certainly didn't believe much of what she'd said. She simply looked as if she's inundated with guilt because he's "gone" and she took the experience with him for granted.
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...
Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.
If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.
Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
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What a sick world it is.
Money is power.
Not LOVE!
Chappie
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...
Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.
If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.
Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...
Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.
If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.
Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.
Since you said you know nothing about the scientology church I suggest you start doing some research. Here's a good post from Im_convincedmjalive to start with:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14844&p=250761#p249440 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14844&p=250761#p249440)
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i know many may not agree, but i think those two were really in love. I also think that both of them were dominate. michael wanted to be boss, lisa marie wanted to be boss, and maybe they let their stubborness get in the way, neither one of them was going to give in first, and i think it cost them their marriage. i love michael ,but i know he's human like the rest of us. he has stated he wanted a baby so bad he would walk around with dolls, and maybe lisa wanted to have a baby when she wanted to (bullheaded), but not before she was ready to be pregnant, and give birth again. I have always had a love/hate relationship with lisa, but after her sincere oprah interview, i am back at love. i dont have the right to judge their relationship, because that was something between them, but i do think this was a real loving marriage, with 2 people who loved eachother, but neither one refused to be the first to back down (strong personalities)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0)
They only help people :roll:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0
They only help people :roll:
wonder if they get special training on how to talk alot and really say anything :)
i hope they help tom because he seems to be having trouble putting together a sentence :(
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...
Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.
If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.
Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.
ideally the thought behind converting someone would be that you want them to have this same thing that you have found because it is good and you believe it is the way to go.but when it is a cult the top dog is the one who benefits financially.
she did also suggest that she hesitated because she did not want to go toe to toe with him in a custody battle if it came down to it.
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Personally, I grow a little weary of Lisa being constantly given a hard time by Michael's fans.
For one she WAS prepared to give him children but she wanted to make sure that the marriage was sound first..She wanted to make sure that she and Michael were on the same wave length and that clearly wasn't happening. She also mentioned that she did not want to go up against Michael in a custody battle and I can understand that.
I like Lisa very much and I always have..She is honest and tells it like it is..Debbie Rowe is also the same..I think Michael must have found that kind of quality attractive in women. Both of his wives are strong gutsy ladies and I admire them both.
Lisa did lash out in the past in various interviews about Michael but it is obvious why...She was angry and hurt.
She admitted that and she regrets it and she is sorry.
You have to remember that when someone is operating at that level of celebrity like Michael and even Elvis Presley was it is sometimes too easy to lose touch with reality and the real world..And Michael had no idea about living in the real world as the 'Superstar' title had come to him at a very young age..Like Elvis, Michael had people at his beck and call and as Lisa rightly said it was either HIS WAY or the highway.
He probably did taunt her about Debbie and how she was willing to have his child..Lisa probably felt pressured. The thing is that we don't know how hard Michael was to live with..Lisa has admitted to being stubborn herself.
I don't think either of them had hidden agendas..I don't think Lisa wanted Michael to join Scientology and I don't believe that Michael wanted the Elvis catalogue either..I think they did love each other very much but it just went wrong..
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I may take a little heat for this but here goes. I 100% agree with Cassi and GramsGirl. I really believe that Michael and Lisa were very much in love at the time of their marriage. I really don't think it is very fair on our part to be ripping her apart. She admitted in that interview that she was young and stubborn but so was Michael. With age comes wisdom (so the saying goes), and what I saw in the Oprah interview was a woman who has matured and since Michael's "death" she has come to realize just how much he meant to her. I also believe that she still loves him and in retrospect wishes that things had gone differently. She openly admitted that she was hurt and angry after the break up and did things to hurt Michael as he did to her. Having a baby with another woman is a very hurtful act in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love Michael with all my heart but like was said in Cassi's post he is human. He is not perfect. So when I see all these posts bashing Lisa it makes me upset. Everyone seems to think that Michael can do no wrong. To me that is being very unrealistic. So to protect the image of perfection that everyone seems to have of him they have to bring someone else down. How can anyone be so judgemental when all people are going by is speculation? Hasn't anything been learned about not judging without facts? Bottom line is no one knows except Lisa and Michael what happened in that marriage. So to assume that she is solely at fault and a terrible person is wrong.
I hope this does not offend anyone because that was not the intent, just stating how I feel about this.
Love and Blessings
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Personally, I grow a little weary of Lisa being constantly given a hard time by Michael's fans.
For one she WAS prepared to give him children but she wanted to make sure that the marriage was sound first..She wanted to make sure that she and Michael were on the same wave length and that clearly wasn't happening. She also mentioned that she did not want to go up against Michael in a custody battle and I can understand that.
I like Lisa very much and I always have..She is honest and tells it like it is..Debbie Rowe is also the same..I think Michael must have found that kind of quality attractive in women. Both of his wives are strong gutsy ladies and I admire them both.
Lisa did lash out in the past in various interviews about Michael but it is obvious why...She was angry and hurt.
She admitted that and she regrets it and she is sorry.
You have to remember that when someone is operating at that level of celebrity like Michael and even Elvis Presley was it is sometimes too easy to lose touch with reality and the real world..And Michael had no idea about living in the real world as the 'Superstar' title had come to him at a very young age..Like Elvis, Michael had people at his beck and call and as Lisa rightly said it was either HIS WAY or the highway.
He probably did taunt her about Debbie and how she was willing to have his child..Lisa probably felt pressured. The thing is that we don't know how hard Michael was to live with..Lisa has admitted to being stubborn herself.
I don't think either of them had hidden agendas..I don't think Lisa wanted Michael to join Scientology and I don't believe that Michael wanted the Elvis catalogue either..I think they did love each other very much but it just went wrong..
Though I'm not an MJ fan I do want to reply to your post.
I personally do not have an opinion about Lisa Marie. I just observe, read, listen and watch. I don't know if she's telling the truth and only if you're a personal friend of her then you would know if she is indeed honest.
You wrote "For one she WAS prepared to give him children but she wanted to make sure that the marriage was sound first.", but we do not know for a fact if that was her actual 'condition'.
Her being with the scientology church shines a different light on the whole issue. Scientology church brainwashes people and therefor their members are under some sort of mind control. If you are familiar with mind control then you know that people who are under mind control do things they would not have done without being mind controlled. Therefor MJ joining the scientology church before she would have his baby could have been a realistic 'condition', even if she loved him.
In case this indeed would have been Lisa Marie's 'condition' for having children with Mike and she set that condition due to being mind controlled, then I'd say she can't be held accountable for it.
I don't know if they loved each other, it's non of my business and therefor I won't even go into that.
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I may take a little heat for this but here goes. I 100% agree with Cassi and GramsGirl. I really believe that Michael and Lisa were very much in love at the time of their marriage. I really don't think it is very fair on our part to be ripping her apart. She admitted in that interview that she was young and stubborn but so was Michael. With age comes wisdom (so the saying goes), and what I saw in the Oprah interview was a woman who has matured and since Michael's "death" she has come to realize just how much he meant to her. I also believe that she still loves him and in retrospect wishes that things had gone differently. She openly admitted that she was hurt and angry after the break up and did things to hurt Michael as he did to her. Having a baby with another woman is a very hurtful act in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love Michael with all my heart but like was said in Cassi's post he is human. ... "
I agree with you. She already had children. She knew how upset her children were when she split from her first husband for MJ and she did not want to put another child or children through that again, she was mature and level-headed enough to make that decision. Michael on the other hand wanted to have a child with her and maybe more children. I think he said he wanted a big family. Maybe that just wasn't in the cards for LMP. We can't judge someone's actions based on what the media says. There may have been more to it. It is obvious that LM saw more about the day to day life with Michael that she wanted to make sure that it was the right decision. Eighteen months is not a long time to get to know someone especially making an important decision as to having a baby with them. We see that situation all the time in mainstream America - people having kids and then splitting up...etc. I think she truly had feelings for him and vice versa. We need to let them both heal. Isn't this all about LOVE, Healing, Compassion and Peace??
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LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex? I followed this "marriage" as it ran its course, LMP and her mother are opportunists who are always looking for relevancy. Pricilla (sp) was NEVER happy about their union and even once insinuated that MJ actually wanted something from her other than love. Also, she made a mockery of their marriage when she talked about it, and she never took a stand in his favor during the trial. I wasn't impressed wit her interview, and I certainly didn't believe much of what she'd said. She simply looked as if she's inundated with guilt because he's "gone" and she took the experience with him for granted.
firstly
she is still with the scientology church.
secondly
i also did not belive much of the inteview i don't think she loved michael and i think it was pricilla tat got her to go wit him for the church.I was reading Hello Magazien and they had interveiw with LMP it was a week after mikes 'death' she said she cried so so so hard i just can't belive tat she didn't love him when they were together y only when he 'dies' she loves him to bits
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I may take a little heat for this but here goes. I 100% agree with Cassi and GramsGirl. I really believe that Michael and Lisa were very much in love at the time of their marriage. I really don't think it is very fair on our part to be ripping her apart. She admitted in that interview that she was young and stubborn but so was Michael. With age comes wisdom (so the saying goes), and what I saw in the Oprah interview was a woman who has matured and since Michael's "death" she has come to realize just how much he meant to her. I also believe that she still loves him and in retrospect wishes that things had gone differently. She openly admitted that she was hurt and angry after the break up and did things to hurt Michael as he did to her. Having a baby with another woman is a very hurtful act in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love Michael with all my heart but like was said in Cassi's post he is human. He is not perfect. So when I see all these posts bashing Lisa it makes me upset. Everyone seems to think that Michael can do no wrong. To me that is being very unrealistic. So to protect the image of perfection that everyone seems to have of him they have to bring someone else down. How can anyone be so judgemental when all people are going by is speculation? Hasn't anything been learned about not judging without facts? Bottom line is no one knows except Lisa and Michael what happened in that marriage. So to assume that she is solely at fault and a terrible person is wrong.
I hope this does not offend anyone because that was not the intent, just stating how I feel about this.
Love and Blessings
I always say it takes 2 to tango. They were both at fault. Nobody mellow out and so this what happens. But I also know about scientology, once you have a child both parents have to be in the same sciencetology church. This is what Michael did not want to do.
Blessings
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Scientology is a dangerous cult. I am still not understanding how people can fall in to the Xenu story as something to believe in.
I posted loooooong ago a warning info about that cult as well, but I believe it was at the other forum (and here also?) and, as well, went unnoticed.
That sect seems to be very powerful and having famous people as role models is not a good sign. Some people looks up at them and follow the example.
It was said that MJ joined scientology, but I never found any proof about it. It were just rumors.
If LMP broke free from it, I am very happy for her.
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Personally, I grow a little weary of Lisa being constantly given a hard time by Michael's fans.
For one she WAS prepared to give him children but she wanted to make sure that the marriage was sound first..She wanted to make sure that she and Michael were on the same wave length and that clearly wasn't happening. She also mentioned that she did not want to go up against Michael in a custody battle and I can understand that.
I like Lisa very much and I always have..She is honest and tells it like it is..Debbie Rowe is also the same..I think Michael must have found that kind of quality attractive in women. Both of his wives are strong gutsy ladies and I admire them both.
Lisa did lash out in the past in various interviews about Michael but it is obvious why...She was angry and hurt.
She admitted that and she regrets it and she is sorry.
You have to remember that when someone is operating at that level of celebrity like Michael and even Elvis Presley was it is sometimes too easy to lose touch with reality and the real world..And Michael had no idea about living in the real world as the 'Superstar' title had come to him at a very young age..Like Elvis, Michael had people at his beck and call and as Lisa rightly said it was either HIS WAY or the highway.
He probably did taunt her about Debbie and how she was willing to have his child..Lisa probably felt pressured. The thing is that we don't know how hard Michael was to live with..Lisa has admitted to being stubborn herself.
I don't think either of them had hidden agendas..I don't think Lisa wanted Michael to join Scientology and I don't believe that Michael wanted the Elvis catalogue either..I think they did love each other very much but it just went wrong..
ok wait a minute :o the estate still has control of elvis catalog :? i though michael had that included in what he owned .what are the details of all that? sorry but i got to the movie late here ;)
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[attachment=0:2yav6onf]toad.jpg[/attachment:2yav6onf]
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maybe what they had was alot of empathy and passion for one another. which perhaps makes for either a great friendship or hot affair but not so good a marriage ;)
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Scientology is a dangerous cult. I am still not understanding how people can fall in to the Xenu story as something to believe in.
I posted loooooong ago a warning info about that cult as well, but I believe it was at the other forum (and here also?) and, as well, went unnoticed.
That sect seems to be very powerful and having famous people as role models is not a good sign. Some people looks up at them and follow the example.
It was said that MJ joined scientology, but I never found any proof about it. It were just rumors.
If LMP broke free from it, I am very happy for her.
i agree scientology is very very very dangerous.I would be very happy for her if she broke free from it but unfortanly shes still part of it :roll:
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i know many may not agree, but i think those two were really in love. I also think that both of them were dominate. michael wanted to be boss, lisa marie wanted to be boss, and maybe they let their stubborness get in the way, neither one of them was going to give in first, and i think it cost them their marriage. i love michael ,but i know he's human like the rest of us. he has stated he wanted a baby so bad he would walk around with dolls, and maybe lisa wanted to have a baby when she wanted to (bullheaded), but not before she was ready to be pregnant, and give birth again. I have always had a love/hate relationship with lisa, but after her sincere oprah interview, i am back at love. i dont have the right to judge their relationship, because that was something between them, but i do think this was a real loving marriage, with 2 people who loved eachother, but neither one refused to be the first to back down (strong personalities)
2nd that. You know sometimes things are just as simple as that (or as complicated as in this case) with no need for further questioning in order to have things to speculate about, even in the case of MJ and LMP.
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Personally, I grow a little weary of Lisa being constantly given a hard time by Michael's fans.
For one she WAS prepared to give him children but she wanted to make sure that the marriage was sound first..She wanted to make sure that she and Michael were on the same wave length and that clearly wasn't happening. She also mentioned that she did not want to go up against Michael in a custody battle and I can understand that.
I like Lisa very much and I always have..She is honest and tells it like it is..Debbie Rowe is also the same..I think Michael must have found that kind of quality attractive in women. Both of his wives are strong gutsy ladies and I admire them both.
Lisa did lash out in the past in various interviews about Michael but it is obvious why...She was angry and hurt.
She admitted that and she regrets it and she is sorry.
You have to remember that when someone is operating at that level of celebrity like Michael and even Elvis Presley was it is sometimes too easy to lose touch with reality and the real world..And Michael had no idea about living in the real world as the 'Superstar' title had come to him at a very young age..Like Elvis, Michael had people at his beck and call and as Lisa rightly said it was either HIS WAY or the highway.
He probably did taunt her about Debbie and how she was willing to have his child..Lisa probably felt pressured. The thing is that we don't know how hard Michael was to live with..Lisa has admitted to being stubborn herself.
I don't think either of them had hidden agendas..I don't think Lisa wanted Michael to join Scientology and I don't believe that Michael wanted the Elvis catalogue either..I think they did love each other very much but it just went wrong..
Though I'm not an MJ fan I do want to reply to your post.
I personally do not have an opinion about Lisa Marie. I just observe, read, listen and watch. I don't know if she's telling the truth and only if you're a personal friend of her then you would know if she is indeed honest.
You wrote "For one she WAS prepared to give him children but she wanted to make sure that the marriage was sound first.", but we do not know for a fact if that was her actual 'condition'.
Her being with the scientology church shines a different light on the whole issue. Scientology church brainwashes people and therefor their members are under some sort of mind control. If you are familiar with mind control then you know that people who are under mind control do things they would not have done without being mind controlled. Therefor MJ joining the scientology church before she would have his baby could have been a realistic 'condition', even if she loved him.
In case this indeed would have been Lisa Marie's 'condition' for having children with Mike and she set that condition due to being mind controlled, then I'd say she can't be held accountable for it.
I don't know if they loved each other, it's non of my business and therefor I won't even go into that.
That's very, very depressing.. kind of like if only it weren't for the existence of that cult, they would have been fine..I wonder if it makes him angry..
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I have often wondered if the reason she didn't have a child with MJ was because he had told her of his plans to hoax his death. In her blog, the day after he died, she said that they had talked about her father's death and that MJ feared he would end up the same as her father. ("The scenario", I believe she called it.) Do you think it's a possibility that she just simply did not want her child to go through what she went through as a child?
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I have often wondered if the reason she didn't have a child with MJ was because he had told her of his plans to hoax his death. In her blog, the day after he died, she said that they had talked about her father's death and that MJ feared he would end up the same as her father. ("The scenario", I believe she called it.) Do you think it's a possibility that she just simply did not want her child to go through what she went through as a child?
she has always said they talked bout tat but i don't think mike would have told her cause she part of the scientolgy church
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ALso let us remember that interview MJ gave with the Rabbi he said that LMP had PROMISED him that the first order of business would be for her to get pregnant soon as they Married. SO LMP PROMISED (go back over that interview) then soooon as she got that big rock on her hand all of a sudden she did not fulfill that promise.
Maybe LMP should not have mislead MJ the way she did. She should have simply stated to him a set time to have children when they felt the time was right. She KNEW Mj wanted a huge family (he comes from one!) He has always stated his love of children so.........IDK :?
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Dedicated to Lisa Marie, Oprah, Sneddon, Bashir and all of Michael Jackson's haters. If you did him wrong, move over cuz you gets no love [youtube:bo9sog4v]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbQhKxxrq04&feature=related[/youtube:bo9sog4v]
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I do think they were in love. It was in the body language when they thought no one was looking. It is in her eyes. I like the interview with her. It felt to me like she was trying to wash the bad away, let people know that she really really loves him not just loved him. It has to be complicated to be a celebrity.
On Scientology. They spoke of it during Primetime Live with Diane Sawyer way back when,and Micheal firmly denied joining, but that did seem to waiver the fact the Lisa said there would be children.
The one thing that soured that interview was when Diane asked Michael if he was planning on adopting Lisa's children. Diane pushed and pushed until it looked like Michael was put in a bad position and then said yes. Lisa was not comfortable with that, and rightfully so, the point was, they had a living involved biological father. I really don't think Michael meant to say yes to that, it looked like a pushed confused question.
Further on Scientology.. craziest thing that is accepted as real. End of story
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Why in the world would Lisa even have thought about a custody battle? Who thinks about this when the talk of having children comes up? In my opinion she talked with the officials at her Scientology Church and perhaps it was mentioned just how powerful Michael is. Afterall Lisa did promise to have a baby, so what happend to change her mind? And isn't Oprah a Scientologist?
Before you go into a marriage, there is always the discussion of having kids, this is the one thing that both of you need to be on the same page about otherwise there will be arguments and hurt feelings, just like what happened with Lisa and Michael.
There were other issues other than the baby that drove them apart and perhaps Michael just got tired of it all and wanted a baby and found a way to have one - she called his bluff and lost. Sometimes two people are attracted to each other and do love each other but they just can't be married to each other.
Love you Michael!
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I do think they were in love. It was in the body language when they thought no one was looking. It is in her eyes. I like the interview with her. It felt to me like she was trying to wash the bad away, let people know that she really really loves him not just loved him. It has to be complicated to be a celebrity.
On Scientology. They spoke of it during Primetime Live with Diane Sawyer way back when,and Micheal firmly denied joining, but that did seem to waiver the fact the Lisa said there would be children.
The one thing that soured that interview was when Diane asked Michael if he was planning on adopting Lisa's children. Diane pushed and pushed until it looked like Michael was put in a bad position and then said yes. Lisa was not comfortable with that, and rightfully so, the point was, they had a living involved biological father. I really don't think Michael meant to say yes to that, it looked like a pushed confused question. Further on Scientology.. craziest thing that is accepted as real. End of story
that was such a weird question on sawyers part :o lisa's reaction was appropriate. michael i don't think knew what hit him when she asked that. i have to wonder if it wasn't to plant the thought that michael was seeking her out because she had young children as an abuser might do.
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I do think they were in love. It was in the body language when they thought no one was looking. It is in her eyes. I like the interview with her. It felt to me like she was trying to wash the bad away, let people know that she really really loves him not just loved him. It has to be complicated to be a celebrity.
On Scientology. They spoke of it during Primetime Live with Diane Sawyer way back when,and Micheal firmly denied joining, but that did seem to waiver the fact the Lisa said there would be children.
The one thing that soured that interview was when Diane asked Michael if he was planning on adopting Lisa's children. Diane pushed and pushed until it looked like Michael was put in a bad position and then said yes. Lisa was not comfortable with that, and rightfully so, the point was, they had a living involved biological father. I really don't think Michael meant to say yes to that, it looked like a pushed confused question. Further on Scientology.. craziest thing that is accepted as real. End of story
that was such a weird question on sawyers part :o lisa's reaction was appropriate. michael i don't think knew what hit him when she asked that. i have to wonder if it wasn't to plant the thought that michael was seeking her out because she had young children as an abuser might do.
yea.. I don't know why in the world that question was asked.. and in my earlier post I had meant to say that Michael answering no to joining her belief DIDN'T waiver her decision on kids, she was all for it.(I made a typing boo boo before).
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i wonder if at this point if they all came out and swore on a stack of bibles if we would be able to believe anything :?
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Man that's really bad if Michael said that to her
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:|
LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...
Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.
If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.
Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.
Since you said you know nothing about the scientology church I suggest you start doing some research. Here's a good post from Im_convincedmjalive to start with:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14844&p=250761#p249440 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14844&p=250761#p249440)
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Wow! I didn't know that. Now that certainly explains things.
LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...
Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.
If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.
Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.
ideally the thought behind converting someone would be that you want them to have this same thing that you have found because it is good and you believe it is the way to go.but when it is a cult the top dog is the one who benefits financially.
she did also suggest that she hesitated because she did not want to go toe to toe with him in a custody battle if it came down to it.
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I have often wondered if the reason she didn't have a child with MJ was because he had told her of his plans to hoax his death. In her blog, the day after he died, she said that they had talked about her father's death and that MJ feared he would end up the same as her father. ("The scenario", I believe she called it.) Do you think it's a possibility that she just simply did not want her child to go through what she went through as a child?
she has always said they talked bout tat but i don't think mike would have told her cause she part of the scientolgy church
Anything is possible. But did MJ know that Elvis faked his death? Did LMP tell him? That is also a question we need to find out. Unless Elvis told MJ if they were close enough. That story about LMP saying that Michael will end up like Elvis always bugged me a little.
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Having watched LMP's interview with Oprah twice now, I am not convinced she was being entirely honest. That's not because there are various videos around showing how she said one thing then later changed her story, even over how they met and who was pursuing whom. I have always felt that LMP is a complex character and she also knows how to manipulate the media for her own interest. She now likes to play the innocent and say Michael was the puppeteer and she had to go along with certain things because she was his wife.
She also said she didn't like to push herself into the spotlight. Not the impression I always had, from the time her first child was born she was on the cover of a magazine with her announcing it to the world. She mentioned in the Diane Sawyer interview that she wasn't interested in a music career but she changed her tune on that too (no pun intended). From the interview she and Priscilla did with Oprah after she and MJ divorced they were talking as though being a singer was always her destiny and she'd always sung and written songs. Yet when she married Michael she seemed content to just be his wife and let him get on with being King of Pop.
I seriously doubt she was naive enough to only know about hangers-on and "vampires" as she called them, towards the end of the marriage. She would have known beforehand and she would have had enough reason then to doubt whether having children was a good idea. Yet she must have agreed to have kids or Michael wouldn't have married her.
Scientology is always an ominous presence in my opinion. Many people claimed Michael married her to get his hands on Elvis' estate/catalog, but why? Why would he even want to do that, it was just another smokescreen to go along with the idea that he was trying to rebuild his reputation and seem like a regular guy.
In my mind Lisa Marie has said and done enough throughout her life to earn my distrust, so whether she was saying what MJ wanted her to say or not on Oprah, I still got the feeling that she was misleading us in a lot of what she said. The remarks about the proposal and it being different from her previous accounts reminded me a bit of Dave Dave and the deliberate mistakes he made on Larry King, as if to say "Hello? Game Time? Anyone paying attention and actually going to check out what I just said to make sure it's accurate?".
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I remember that interview so well,and always wondered why that diane asked if Michael was going to adopt Lisa,s children,I was like (WHAT)I couldnt believe what she was saying,and thought what a stupid question,when their dad was in their lives,I thought is that woman stupid or thick,and I was waiting for Michael or Lisa to say no,and explain to the stupid woman why.They both seemed so nieve and gulable back then.imo
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Lisa Marie was a leech who only wanted to 'fix' Michael. She didn't have babies with him because she was a selfish woman who didn't want a black baby. Simple as that.
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At the Grammy Awards in 1993 Michael talks about doing a cleansing fast at 2:52 in this video. This is around where he and Lisa are getting to know each other, possibly already heavily involved, but not officially. This sounds like she already at this point had introduced him to Scientology and that is one of their stages of involvement. My opinion is he was willing to see what it was all about, do the fast, since Michael has always been one to learn about everything. However he is one very independent thinker, always learning from the best, taking what he likes and incorporating it into his own eclectic belief system. In other words nobody converts him to theirs. "Keep fighting until you are the King of the hill." 8-) It's too bad Lisa didn't follow her dad Elvis' awareness of Scientology--he wanted nothing to do with them, they disgusted him, and I'm guessing it was a factor why he and Priscilla split up. Also if they are a contolling cult and dangerous to get out of or speak against, Lisa may also have warned Michael about them too. I believe there's more to Lisa than meets the eye, and we'll have to practice a wait-and-see policy. Lisa may just be a closet Scientology rebel.
[youtube:23hebpjt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ei7_10s18&feature=related[/youtube:23hebpjt]
Whether or not Oprah is a Scientologist I can't seem to find a firm answer, but they seem to be a force to be reckoned with. How they are involved with L and M's marriage, that perhaps is why the certificate is full of legal flaws to be null and void if the church puts on pressure. Maybe having children with an outside surrogate mother in Debbie and other woman was the best strategy on Michael's part. We simply do not know how much acting for the sake of the public is going on. It is my firm conviction that Lisa and Michael are still in love with each other, in a tricky, complex game filled with enemies.
http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/59305 (http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/59305)
15. Re: Is Oprah a Closet Scientologist?
May 17, 2008 12:57 PM | In response to: bewaresci
I think Oprah is in a weird place with Scientology. Her friendship with Cruise and fan-like adulation of his looks and movies, coupled with giving him the opportunity to explain away controversy in his views and behavior, as a "misunderstanding" skirts the edge of being tacit approval. I think that was a bad decision.
She could also be well aware of the scary power and vindictiveness that Scientology uses against anyone who exposes it for what it is. Oprah would rather use her millions for good causes, that fighting the onslaught of legal cases that any show on Scientology would bring her.
Then there was the way they went after the award-winning author of the article of the 1991 article on Scientology in TIME magazine, in attempt to destroy his integrity and career. Oprah could do two shows just on journalists and others who have written about Scientology and have experienced outrageous backlash perpetrated by cult members. Recently, even a hired blogger/journalist in the Wash. Post section on religion mentioned that she felt she was being followed after she started writing and researching some articles about Scientology.
If Oprah had a show on Scientology, including an objective researcher who knows its history, and guests who escaped the cult, Oprah would lose Tom Cruise, Elfman (big loss there, ha ha), Travolta etc. as friends AND they would never come on her show again. In return, she would get HUGE publicity from it. I think she would be top-of-the-news for weeks.
The fact is, the truth about Scientology, is out there now, all over on the web, and everywhere but their official sites. Miscavige (top guy of Scientology) is on YOUTUBE talking about wanting to "obliterate psychiatry." Cruise in on YOUTUBE ranting about a world in a hundred years, free of SPs, "Suppressive Persons" or people who are critical of Scientology, who under Scientology's beliefs, should be messed up or destroyed.
If Oprah is too afraid to expose Scientology, or doesn't really want to know anything about it, or has other priorities, than what is left? What is left is us. We who have no friendships to risk, who are sincerely interested in the truth. I feel I can't do much for people in the cult, even with all the injustice and abuses, but I can do a lot in warning people about joining.
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I think the relationship was genuine (even though I can't stand LMP) :roll:
I think the thing that Michael loved about her was also the thing that broke them up. LMP could hold her own. She had her own money, fame, identity etc....she didn't need Michael nor did she worship him like most of the women in his life did (which I think is what he found attractive about her---she didn't chase him). She'd tell him to "go take a hike", roll her eyes and keep stepping....and it was the same for him. They both came at each other with the same power. Both of them had strong personalities and both of them were used to "getting their own way". THAT WAS THE PROBLEM! Neither wanted to compromise.
I do think she promised him they'd have children (but she went into the marriage with the mindset to wait a while)...not because she didn't want any kids with him, but that she was still on the rebound from her marriage to Danny (I mean really...they were still taking vacations together?! yikes!)...plus she was rebelling against her mother who didn't approve of either marriage...Danny or Michael.
I think Michael knew LMP wanted to wait to have kids, but figured he could change her mind (again, he's used to getting what he wants!....he is Michael Jackson after all, women faint in his arms,lol :lol: )
It seems like their relationship was "intense" from the very beginning. Neither was afraid to argue or throw a fit (like little children). It's clear they knew how to hurt each other. Michael would taunt her with Debbie's offer and LMP would go on vacations with her ex-husband to retaliate.
I think this relationship was very much "Love-Hate"....and like any intense relationship it was in the extremes with everything! But I do think it was genuine affection.
As for the Scientology, Elvis Estate, etc...Michael was no fool...he knew how to barter and I'm sure they each negotiated to get "their way" with each other. Michael probably promised to "join" Scientology, but only after LMP had his baby and LMP would only have the baby if he joined first (and thus the battle insues!)
I think now that LMP is older and more mature, she realizes what mistakes they made. I truly believe they couldn't work it out because they were just too much alike.
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At the Grammy Awards in 1993 Michael talks about doing a cleansing fast at 2:52 in this video. This is around where he and Lisa are getting to know each other, possibly already heavily involved, but not officially. This sounds like she already at this point had introduced him to Scientology and that is one of their stages of involvement. My opinion is he was willing to see what it was all about, do the fast, since Michael has always been one to learn about everything. However he is one very independent thinker, always learning from the best, taking what he likes and incorporating it into his own eclectic belief system. In other words nobody converts him to theirs. "Keep fighting until you are the King of the hill." 8-) It's too bad Lisa didn't follow her dad Elvis' awareness of Scientology--he wanted nothing to do with them, they disgusted him, and I'm guessing it was a factor why he and Priscilla split up. Also if they are a contolling cult and dangerous to get out of or speak against, Lisa may also have warned Michael about them too. I believe there's more to Lisa than meets the eye, and we'll have to practice a wait-and-see policy. Lisa may just be a closet Scientology rebel.
[youtube:1qvkpcr1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ei7_10s18&feature=related[/youtube:1qvkpcr1]
Whether or not Oprah is a Scientologist I can't seem to find a firm answer, but they seem to be a force to be reckoned with. How they are involved with L and M's marriage, that perhaps is why the certificate is full of legal flaws to be null and void if the church puts on pressure. Maybe having children with an outside surrogate mother in Debbie and other woman was the best strategy on Michael's part. We simply do not know how much acting for the sake of the public is going on. It is my firm conviction that Lisa and Michael are still in love with each other, in a tricky, complex game filled with enemies.
http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/59305 (http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/59305)
15. Re: Is Oprah a Closet Scientologist?
May 17, 2008 12:57 PM | In response to: bewaresci
I think Oprah is in a weird place with Scientology. Her friendship with Cruise and fan-like adulation of his looks and movies, coupled with giving him the opportunity to explain away controversy in his views and behavior, as a "misunderstanding" skirts the edge of being tacit approval. I think that was a bad decision.
She could also be well aware of the scary power and vindictiveness that Scientology uses against anyone who exposes it for what it is. Oprah would rather use her millions for good causes, that fighting the onslaught of legal cases that any show on Scientology would bring her.
Then there was the way they went after the award-winning author of the article of the 1991 article on Scientology in TIME magazine, in attempt to destroy his integrity and career. Oprah could do two shows just on journalists and others who have written about Scientology and have experienced outrageous backlash perpetrated by cult members. Recently, even a hired blogger/journalist in the Wash. Post section on religion mentioned that she felt she was being followed after she started writing and researching some articles about Scientology.
If Oprah had a show on Scientology, including an objective researcher who knows its history, and guests who escaped the cult, Oprah would lose Tom Cruise, Elfman (big loss there, ha ha), Travolta etc. as friends AND they would never come on her show again. In return, she would get HUGE publicity from it. I think she would be top-of-the-news for weeks.
The fact is, the truth about Scientology, is out there now, all over on the web, and everywhere but their official sites. Miscavige (top guy of Scientology) is on YOUTUBE talking about wanting to "obliterate psychiatry." Cruise in on YOUTUBE ranting about a world in a hundred years, free of SPs, "Suppressive Persons" or people who are critical of Scientology, who under Scientology's beliefs, should be messed up or destroyed.
If Oprah is too afraid to expose Scientology, or doesn't really want to know anything about it, or has other priorities, than what is left? What is left is us. We who have no friendships to risk, who are sincerely interested in the truth. I feel I can't do much for people in the cult, even with all the injustice and abuses, but I can do a lot in warning people about joining.
I have always believed that this speach at the Grammys was singificant as it is the outfit he wore here that was the "outfit which was described that he was buried in for the funeral" that La Toya described. JMO
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I have always believed that this speach at the Grammys was singificant as it is the outfit he wore here that was the "outfit which was described that he was buried in for the funeral" that La Toya described. JMO
And JMO as well ;)
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I have often wondered if the reason she didn't have a child with MJ was because he had told her of his plans to hoax his death. In her blog, the day after he died, she said that they had talked about her father's death and that MJ feared he would end up the same as her father. ("The scenario", I believe she called it.) Do you think it's a possibility that she just simply did not want her child to go through what she went through as a child?
she has always said they talked bout tat but i don't think mike would have told her cause she part of the scientolgy church
Anything is possible. But did MJ know that Elvis faked his death? Did LMP tell him? That is also a question we need to find out. Unless Elvis told MJ if they were close enough. That story about LMP saying that Michael will end up like Elvis always bugged me a little.
yes tat story bugs me a little 2.i don't know if she would have told michael maby she did and he met him and became close friends and still are in contack now but well never know i soupose well until elvis comes back but when i don't know