Some General Observations

[White_Orchid]

Thought I'd share a few thoughts with you, please excuse any spelling errors. For those who read to the end, I'd be interested in your thoughts about the urine as the amount of urine vs the prostate medical condition seems contradictory to me. Thanks.

Synopsis of few contradictory autopsy statements and other miscellaneous observations


Clothing
Page 1.-Physical Evidence-NO
Page 3.- Body in hospital gown
Page 15. Body not clothed and no clothing available for review

Teeth
p.1-Teeth-all natural
p.13-metallic/ceramic restorations and multiple ceramic restorations of all maxillary teeth
p.24-incomplete dental records
p.32 and p.33-2 caps on teeth+2 teeth implants

Murray
911 caller stated Murray gave CPR on bed
p2.-Murray pulled patient to floor
p.2-throughout transport all medical orders were given by Murray-anyone have pics of murray in the ambulance???
p.2-paramedics found asystolic -pupils fixed and dilated

UCLA Medical Centre
p.2-Dr. Cooper pronounced death at 2:26 pm
P.1-LA Coroner assigned case at 16:15
P.1 LA Coroner arrive at UCLA at 17:20
p.1-Alexander Perez transported body to Los Angeles FSC at 18:50- 4 1/2 hours after Cooper pronounced death at 2:26 PM

Scene Evidence
P3.-closed bottle of urine at left foot of bed
p.42- 450 urine collected at the scene
p.3-opened box of catheters
p.3-external catheter present (on body,lower abdomen)

Autopsy Results
p.17-bladder contained 550 grams of clear yellow-orange urine
p.23-squamous metaplasia
p.23-Respiratory Bronchiolitis
p.23-chronic interstital pneumonitis
p.41-Benezodiazopine-Heart Blood-162 ml
p.41-Propfol-Femoral Blood test results for Propofol was 2.6 ml
p.43-Propofol-Blood test for Propofol was 3.2 ml
p.44-Propofol-Liver prpofol was 4.1 ml
p.45-Propofol-Stomach test for Propofol was .13 mg
p.47-Propofol-Urine propogol was .15ml
p.48-Propofol-Vitreous propofol was .40ml

Coroner Conclusions
P.21 Circumstances indicate that propofol....were administered by another
p.21-circumstances do not support self-administration of propofol
p.23-"it should be noted the aove lung injury with reserve loss is not to be considered a direct or contributing cause of death. However, such an individual would be susceptible to adverse health effects".
p.49 2 syringes containing Propofol, amounts .17g and .47g

My thoughts:

Teeth
p.24-incomplete dental records-This is my personal favorite in all the comments of this official autopsy because without complete dental records, there cannot be a verification to identify the body as that of Michael Jackson. Various means of forensic identification are used but dental records are a common method of verification.

Murray
WTF-make up your mind Murray, did you do CPR on the bed or floor-pick one!

UCLA
4.5 hours is a l-o-n-g time, WTH was going on?

Autopsy Results
Wow, imo, this amount of drugs is murder, not manslaughter. Oxman was right to say 'Michael' was swimming it it'.
This is beyond shocking!

Coroner Conclusions (P.21).. Circumstances indicate that propofol....were administered by another.

Terminal Respiratory Condition?
Corpse person had respiratory condition consistent with smoker. However, remember that a pack of ciggies was photographed on the bedside table-so, who was the smoker?
Whoever this person was, coroner comments suggest condition was serious, might be terminal? (p.23)

Sounds like a nice way of saying the patient would die soon:
"it should be noted the above lung injury with reserve loss is not to be considered a direct or contributing cause of death. However, such an individual would be susceptible to adverse health effects".

Wiki definition of some respiratory medical terms
p.23-squamous metaplasia-common with people who smoke-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squamous_metaplasia
p.23-Respiratory Bronchiolitis-Associated Interstitial Lung Disease-http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/466351
p.23-chronic interstital pneumonitis-patient coughs, rapid out of breath, disease is terminal- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... r-int.html

Forensic Drug Reference Chart
Check out Propofol limits for toxicity levels!!!!!

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Word Puzzle

Somehow words 'trauma/gershwin' struck me as odd, see p.42-see "Trauma/Gershwin".
So I haven't investigated but discovered this interesting upload to YouTude 7 months ago about the '7 ages of Man':
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Urine Puzzle

Corpse person had 450 ml of urine in his bladder which is close to 2 cups of urine. Yet, Murray had attached a urine catheter which was found on the body. So, how why did the bladder fill up with 2 cups of urine if the body was catherized?
There was ALSO a capped bottled of urine found on a chair at the foot of the bed (another 550ml?).
Why was there so much urine?
If 2 cups in a bottle, 2 cups in bladder, that would be 4 cups of urine. One of the medical conditions listed was a prostate condition that I understood to have 'urine hesitancy' which contradicts the amount of urine found on scene.

Murray is lying.

Didn't Murray say he gave 'Michael' .25ml...nothing that should have killed him?

Somewhere I read that Murray too off to see a hooker, so was there someone else on site pummping the IV full of Propofol?

Fact is that this corpse person was poisoned by Propofol.

Final Thoughts

The surgery scars and tatoos along with the 'terminal' respiratory medical condition suggest to me that a terminal double was killed. I never heard Michael cough. A person with those respiratory conditions would most likely wheeze and cough.

I don't believe the autopsy was done on Michael.

[somekindofsign]

Very usefull list, Good Job!
And thank you very much!

[mjthelegendlives]

Excellent  job, White Orchid, and your thoughts are  plausible.  I always had this thought that a double was the person that died...and don't mean to hack your thread, but my husband even thought of the possibility that the propofol was injected after the person had passed to make it seem like an accidental overdose?  You know, a person who was dancing like a 20 yr. old two days before his "death" doesn't just drop dead out of the blue...I mean, it can happen, but its just not the norm.

[michaelsupporter]

I can shed some light on the urine.

An external, or condom catheter, only captures urine as it is expelled from the body during the act of peeing-whether voluntary or not. Usually it is used for incontinence of urine.
An internal catheter is inserted into the bladder and drains urine continuously. Perhaps the filled cup near the bed was used to empty the catheter bag at one point??

However, none of this justifies that the story is true. I find it odd that a man would have the need to be catheterized for a few hours of sleep.  Something is very fishy here. It all sounds rather concocted or someone was terminal in that house.

[WendyE]

@ White Orchid, fantastic job. My hat is off to you! Thank you so much I was seeing and thinking everything that you have stated here. Kudo's I am very impressed!
Also, does anyone remember Christmas 2008 there were false reports that Micheal was terminally ill and might be in need of a heart/lung transplant. It was all over the new here in Los Angeles. Please let me know if anyone else remembers this. We are on to something here. Thank you all again for your dedication and hard work on this subject. God bless you all.
Wendy E

[mjthelegendlives]

This is so far one of the best theories I've read in a while regarding how the hoax was done...If MJ would sleep only for a few hours, why would he need an internal catheter to collect urine?

@Michaelsupporter great thoughts there.  The terminal patient would explain why no one was allowed to go upstairs besides the kids and Murray.  I remember reading something like that back in July.

@WendyE, yes, I remember reading something like that on the National Enquirer on Dec. 08.  This is probably when everything started.  I remember the NE had given MJ exactly six months to live, and exactly six months after that "report", he "dies".  I do believe we are on to something here.

[CrazyBanana]

Excellent  job, White Orchid, and your thoughts are  plausible.  I always had this thought that a double was the person that died...and don't mean to hack your thread, but my husband even thought of the possibility that the propofol was injected after the person had passed to make it seem like an accidental overdose?  You know, a person who was dancing like a 20 yr. old two days before his "death" doesn't just drop dead out of the blue...I mean, it can happen, but its just not the norm.

WOW! never thought of that!

[PinkTopaz]

For Lawd's sake, of course it wasn't done on the living Michael Jackson! Just tell me this- do the papers say Michael Joseph Jackson? Do they?

[CC]

@white_orchid

GREAT JOB! VERY GOOD OBSERVATIONS!!!
ABOUT THE URINE BOTTLE, WHO SAY WAS MJ URINE? THEY DON´T KNOW THAT... WASN´T HIS ROOM AND WASN´T HIS PERSONAL EFFECTS... SO THE CIGARETTES COULD BE OF SOMEONE ELSE...

[White_Orchid]

I can shed some light on the urine.

An external, or condom catheter, only captures urine as it is expelled from the body during the act of peeing-whether voluntary or not. Usually it is used for incontinence of urine.
An internal catheter is inserted into the bladder and drains urine continuously. Perhaps the filled cup near the bed was used to empty the catheter bag at one point??

However, none of this justifies that the story is true. I find it odd that a man would have the need to be catheterized for a few hours of sleep.  Something is very fishy here. It all sounds rather concocted or someone was terminal in that house.

Thank you for the medical explanations, would you mind another question?

How long does a body take to produce 2 cups of urine in the bladder?

The autopsy reported 450 urine in the bladder which about 2 cups...plus another 550 ml of urine in the bottle at the end of the bed.

What doesn't make sense to me is that  the autopsy referred this patient as having a prostrate condition that made urinating difficult....so, it is bizarre that this is nearly 4 cups of urine in the room.

Catheters could also be used to INJECT urine....but, if so, why?

Any thoughts???

Also, I wonder if Murray was the only one INJECTING PROPOFOL...

Hhhmm, a lot of cash and jewels were missing...

 :?:

[scorpionchik]

Very nice!  

[michaelsupporter]

I can shed some light on the urine.

An external, or condom catheter, only captures urine as it is expelled from the body during the act of peeing-whether voluntary or not. Usually it is used for incontinence of urine.
An internal catheter is inserted into the bladder and drains urine continuously. Perhaps the filled cup near the bed was used to empty the catheter bag at one point??

However, none of this justifies that the story is true. I find it odd that a man would have the need to be catheterized for a few hours of sleep.  Something is very fishy here. It all sounds rather concocted or someone was terminal in that house.

Thank you for the medical explanations, would you mind another question?

How long does a body take to produce 2 cups of urine in the bladder?

White orchid,
It is odd that a dehydrated individual (as they claim MJ was) would have that much urine at the bedside and in the catheter bag. If so, it would have accumulated over time.  I doubt that a terminal man would make this much urine either.  Was Murray collecting his own urine, perhaps???  The general rule of thumb for individuals who are ill-hospitalized-is to maintain at least 30mL/urine/hour. Generally, most people will produce more if they have healthy kidneys. The hourly output in that case will vary based on drugs used, diuretics etc. It's hard to predict but a total of 1000mL could be excreted in a matter of a couple of hours if lasix, or another diuretic was taken. Or, could have accumulated over a period of 10 hours or more (depending on the health of the kidneys). However, if Michael returned home around 1-2 a.m. and hadn't been able to sleep....he was able to urinate on his own. Prostrate problems don't prevent one from going....it only causes stopping and starting (flow issues). Having an enlarged prostate would not effect the flow once a catheter was inserted for it bypasses the prostate and the tip is in the bladder. There would be no need to "inject" urine into the bladder.


The autopsy reported 450 urine in the bladder which about 2 cups...plus another 550 ml of urine in the bottle at the end of the bed.

What doesn't make sense to me is that  the autopsy referred this patient as having a prostrate condition that made urinating difficult....so, it is bizarre that this is nearly 4 cups of urine in the room.

Catheters could also be used to INJECT urine....but, if so, why?

Any thoughts???

Also, I wonder if Murray was the only one INJECTING PROPOFOL...

Hhhmm, a lot of cash and jewels were missing...

 :?:

[michaelsupporter]

I can shed some light on the urine.

An external, or condom catheter, only captures urine as it is expelled from the body during the act of peeing-whether voluntary or not. Usually it is used for incontinence of urine.
An internal catheter is inserted into the bladder and drains urine continuously. Perhaps the filled cup near the bed was used to empty the catheter bag at one point??

However, none of this justifies that the story is true. I find it odd that a man would have the need to be catheterized for a few hours of sleep.  Something is very fishy here. It all sounds rather concocted or someone was terminal in that house.

Thank you for the medical explanations, would you mind another question?

How long does a body take to produce 2 cups of urine in the bladder?

White orchid,
It is odd that a dehydrated individual (as they claim MJ was) would have that much urine at the bedside and in the catheter bag. If so, it would have accumulated over time.  I doubt that a terminal man would make this much urine either.  Was Murray collecting his own urine, perhaps???  The general rule of thumb for individuals who are ill-hospitalized-is to maintain at least 30mL/urine/hour. Generally, most people will produce more if they have healthy kidneys. The hourly output in that case will vary based on drugs used, diuretics etc. It's hard to predict but a total of 1000mL could be excreted in a matter of a couple of hours if lasix, or another diuretic was taken. Or, could have accumulated over a period of 10 hours or more (depending on the health of the kidneys). However, if Michael returned home around 1-2 a.m. and hadn't been able to sleep....he was able to urinate on his own. Prostrate problems don't prevent one from going....it only causes stopping and starting (flow issues). Having an enlarged prostate would not effect the flow once a catheter was inserted for it bypasses the prostate and the tip is in the bladder. There would be no need to "inject" urine into the bladder.


The autopsy reported 450 urine in the bladder which about 2 cups...plus another 550 ml of urine in the bottle at the end of the bed.

What doesn't make sense to me is that  the autopsy referred this patient as having a prostrate condition that made urinating difficult....so, it is bizarre that this is nearly 4 cups of urine in the room.

Catheters could also be used to INJECT urine....but, if so, why?

Any thoughts???

Also, I wonder if Murray was the only one INJECTING PROPOFOL...

Hhhmm, a lot of cash and jewels were missing...

 :?:

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The urinary bladder usually holds 300-350 mL of urine; a full adult bladder holds about 500mL of urine, 15 times its empty volume. Not all specialists accept these values, some say a urinary bladder can hold ca. 1000 mL, but it is different from person to person. As urine accumulates, the rugae flatten and the wall of the bladder thins as it stretches, allowing the bladder to store larger amounts of urine without a significant rise in internal pressure. [3]

The desire to urinate usually starts when the bladder reaches around 25% of its working volume. At this stage it is easy for the subject, if desired, to resist the urge to urinate. As the bladder continues to fill, the desire to urinate becomes stronger and harder to ignore. Eventually, the bladder will fill to the point where the urge to urinate becomes overwhelming, and the subject will no longer be able to ignore it.

[White_Orchid]

@michaelsupporter

Thanks, appreciated your informative posts!  

So, there was 4 cups of urine in less than 12 hours.  Very, very bizarre.

 :shock:

[michaelsupporter]

@michaelsupporter

Thanks, appreciated your informative posts!  

So, there was 4 cups of urine in less than 12 hours.  Very, very bizarre.

 :shock:

Personally, I don't believe this report. I still don't see why anyone needs to be catheterized at home for a few hours of sleep. I don't think the report is authentic. Since when do cardiologists insert catheters anyhow? This is all beginning to sound ridiculous.