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I do think they were in love. It was in the body language when they thought no one was looking. It is in her eyes. I like the interview with her. It felt to me like she was trying to wash the bad away, let people know that she really really loves him not just loved him. It has to be complicated to be a celebrity. On Scientology. They spoke of it during Primetime Live with Diane Sawyer way back when,and Micheal firmly denied joining, but that did seem to waiver the fact the Lisa said there would be children. The one thing that soured that interview was when Diane asked Michael if he was planning on adopting Lisa's children. Diane pushed and pushed until it looked like Michael was put in a bad position and then said yes. Lisa was not comfortable with that, and rightfully so, the point was, they had a living involved biological father. I really don't think Michael meant to say yes to that, it looked like a pushed confused question. Further on Scientology.. craziest thing that is accepted as real. End of story
Quote from: "reading_on"I do think they were in love. It was in the body language when they thought no one was looking. It is in her eyes. I like the interview with her. It felt to me like she was trying to wash the bad away, let people know that she really really loves him not just loved him. It has to be complicated to be a celebrity. On Scientology. They spoke of it during Primetime Live with Diane Sawyer way back when,and Micheal firmly denied joining, but that did seem to waiver the fact the Lisa said there would be children. The one thing that soured that interview was when Diane asked Michael if he was planning on adopting Lisa's children. Diane pushed and pushed until it looked like Michael was put in a bad position and then said yes. Lisa was not comfortable with that, and rightfully so, the point was, they had a living involved biological father. I really don't think Michael meant to say yes to that, it looked like a pushed confused question. Further on Scientology.. craziest thing that is accepted as real. End of storythat was such a weird question on sawyers part lisa's reaction was appropriate. michael i don't think knew what hit him when she asked that. i have to wonder if it wasn't to plant the thought that michael was seeking her out because she had young children as an abuser might do.
Quote from: "2MuchMJLuv"Quote from: "*Mo*"Quote from: "2MuchMJLuv"Quote from: "~Souza~"LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.Since you said you know nothing about the scientology church I suggest you start doing some research. Here's a good post from Im_convincedmjalive to start with:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote from: "*Mo*"Quote from: "2MuchMJLuv"Quote from: "~Souza~"LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.
Quote from: "2MuchMJLuv"Quote from: "~Souza~"LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.
Quote from: "~Souza~"LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?
LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.
Quote from: "2MuchMJLuv"Quote from: "*Mo*"Quote from: "2MuchMJLuv"Quote from: "~Souza~"LMP was (stills is?) with the scientology church. Maybe she wanted him to join it as well, before she would have his baby and he refused.I seriously doubt that. If that were the case, she would've said that. With LM, you just never know I mean she knew that he wanted children BEFORE she'd married him. Why marry him if you knew that you weren't interested in having children with him, nor completely over your ex?You mean that if that were the case, she would have said that on Oprah..? Like: "I told him I would have his baby if he would join the scientology church"? Nah...Especially because she knew upfront that Mike wanted children so badly, this would have been the perfect emotional blackmail to lure him into the scientology church. I think the scientology church would have been highly interested in having Michael Jackson, because that would have meant loads and loads of new members as his fans would have followed him there.If it's true that he told her "If you're not gonna do it, Debbie says she'll do it" then I would fully understand that. That was a way to have children without getting involved with the scientology church. Mike is not an idiot, he knows very well that once you're involved with the scientology church there's no way out.Emotionally blackmailing him to not have his baby unless he would join the scientology church sounds highly plausible.Ok, but how would she benefit from converting him? I know NOTHING about Scientology, is there a conversion ratio? She has been described as selfish and seems to care about how she comes across as well as her cred. I was thinking more along the lines of "He and I were in 2 totally different places. I belong to the church and he didn't. Having a child would've made matters more complex..." This is a difficult debate because we weren't there. MJ touched on it briefly with the Rabbi.ideally the thought behind converting someone would be that you want them to have this same thing that you have found because it is good and you believe it is the way to go.but when it is a cult the top dog is the one who benefits financially.she did also suggest that she hesitated because she did not want to go toe to toe with him in a custody battle if it came down to it.
Quote from: "anewfan"I have often wondered if the reason she didn't have a child with MJ was because he had told her of his plans to hoax his death. In her blog, the day after he died, she said that they had talked about her father's death and that MJ feared he would end up the same as her father. ("The scenario", I believe she called it.) Do you think it's a possibility that she just simply did not want her child to go through what she went through as a child?she has always said they talked bout tat but i don't think mike would have told her cause she part of the scientolgy church
I have often wondered if the reason she didn't have a child with MJ was because he had told her of his plans to hoax his death. In her blog, the day after he died, she said that they had talked about her father's death and that MJ feared he would end up the same as her father. ("The scenario", I believe she called it.) Do you think it's a possibility that she just simply did not want her child to go through what she went through as a child?
15. Re: Is Oprah a Closet Scientologist? May 17, 2008 12:57 PM | In response to: bewaresci I think Oprah is in a weird place with Scientology. Her friendship with Cruise and fan-like adulation of his looks and movies, coupled with giving him the opportunity to explain away controversy in his views and behavior, as a "misunderstanding" skirts the edge of being tacit approval. I think that was a bad decision. She could also be well aware of the scary power and vindictiveness that Scientology uses against anyone who exposes it for what it is. Oprah would rather use her millions for good causes, that fighting the onslaught of legal cases that any show on Scientology would bring her. Then there was the way they went after the award-winning author of the article of the 1991 article on Scientology in TIME magazine, in attempt to destroy his integrity and career. Oprah could do two shows just on journalists and others who have written about Scientology and have experienced outrageous backlash perpetrated by cult members. Recently, even a hired blogger/journalist in the Wash. Post section on religion mentioned that she felt she was being followed after she started writing and researching some articles about Scientology. If Oprah had a show on Scientology, including an objective researcher who knows its history, and guests who escaped the cult, Oprah would lose Tom Cruise, Elfman (big loss there, ha ha), Travolta etc. as friends AND they would never come on her show again. In return, she would get HUGE publicity from it. I think she would be top-of-the-news for weeks. The fact is, the truth about Scientology, is out there now, all over on the web, and everywhere but their official sites. Miscavige (top guy of Scientology) is on YOUTUBE talking about wanting to "obliterate psychiatry." Cruise in on YOUTUBE ranting about a world in a hundred years, free of SPs, "Suppressive Persons" or people who are critical of Scientology, who under Scientology's beliefs, should be messed up or destroyed. If Oprah is too afraid to expose Scientology, or doesn't really want to know anything about it, or has other priorities, than what is left? What is left is us. We who have no friendships to risk, who are sincerely interested in the truth. I feel I can't do much for people in the cult, even with all the injustice and abuses, but I can do a lot in warning people about joining.
At the Grammy Awards in 1993 Michael talks about doing a cleansing fast at 2:52 in this video. This is around where he and Lisa are getting to know each other, possibly already heavily involved, but not officially. This sounds like she already at this point had introduced him to Scientology and that is one of their stages of involvement. My opinion is he was willing to see what it was all about, do the fast, since Michael has always been one to learn about everything. However he is one very independent thinker, always learning from the best, taking what he likes and incorporating it into his own eclectic belief system. In other words nobody converts him to theirs. "Keep fighting until you are the King of the hill." 8-) It's too bad Lisa didn't follow her dad Elvis' awareness of Scientology--he wanted nothing to do with them, they disgusted him, and I'm guessing it was a factor why he and Priscilla split up. Also if they are a contolling cult and dangerous to get out of or speak against, Lisa may also have warned Michael about them too. I believe there's more to Lisa than meets the eye, and we'll have to practice a wait-and-see policy. Lisa may just be a closet Scientology rebel.[youtube:1qvkpcr1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Ei7_10s18&feature=related[/youtube:1qvkpcr1]Whether or not Oprah is a Scientologist I can't seem to find a firm answer, but they seem to be a force to be reckoned with. How they are involved with L and M's marriage, that perhaps is why the certificate is full of legal flaws to be null and void if the church puts on pressure. Maybe having children with an outside surrogate mother in Debbie and other woman was the best strategy on Michael's part. We simply do not know how much acting for the sake of the public is going on. It is my firm conviction that Lisa and Michael are still in love with each other, in a tricky, complex game filled with enemies.You are not allowed to view links. Register or LoginQuote15. Re: Is Oprah a Closet Scientologist? May 17, 2008 12:57 PM | In response to: bewaresci I think Oprah is in a weird place with Scientology. Her friendship with Cruise and fan-like adulation of his looks and movies, coupled with giving him the opportunity to explain away controversy in his views and behavior, as a "misunderstanding" skirts the edge of being tacit approval. I think that was a bad decision. She could also be well aware of the scary power and vindictiveness that Scientology uses against anyone who exposes it for what it is. Oprah would rather use her millions for good causes, that fighting the onslaught of legal cases that any show on Scientology would bring her. Then there was the way they went after the award-winning author of the article of the 1991 article on Scientology in TIME magazine, in attempt to destroy his integrity and career. Oprah could do two shows just on journalists and others who have written about Scientology and have experienced outrageous backlash perpetrated by cult members. Recently, even a hired blogger/journalist in the Wash. Post section on religion mentioned that she felt she was being followed after she started writing and researching some articles about Scientology. If Oprah had a show on Scientology, including an objective researcher who knows its history, and guests who escaped the cult, Oprah would lose Tom Cruise, Elfman (big loss there, ha ha), Travolta etc. as friends AND they would never come on her show again. In return, she would get HUGE publicity from it. I think she would be top-of-the-news for weeks. The fact is, the truth about Scientology, is out there now, all over on the web, and everywhere but their official sites. Miscavige (top guy of Scientology) is on YOUTUBE talking about wanting to "obliterate psychiatry." Cruise in on YOUTUBE ranting about a world in a hundred years, free of SPs, "Suppressive Persons" or people who are critical of Scientology, who under Scientology's beliefs, should be messed up or destroyed. If Oprah is too afraid to expose Scientology, or doesn't really want to know anything about it, or has other priorities, than what is left? What is left is us. We who have no friendships to risk, who are sincerely interested in the truth. I feel I can't do much for people in the cult, even with all the injustice and abuses, but I can do a lot in warning people about joining.
I have always believed that this speach at the Grammys was singificant as it is the outfit he wore here that was the "outfit which was described that he was buried in for the funeral" that La Toya described. JMO