Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Latest News => Michael Jackson News => Topic started by: *Mo* on November 19, 2010, 07:05:53 AM
-
I ask you to take the time and thoroughly read this post, although it’s a long one. I’m sorry for that, but this is the only correct way I can present my findings.
This post is not to ridicule anyone, nor to present non-evidence based objections, this post is based on evidence. I do not intend to offense nor hurt anyone with this post. My post is expressing my opinion, based on logical reasoning and thorough investigation.
The index of this website clearly states that people are invited here to forensically examine the obviously strange and discordant events of June 25 2009 and beyond. As of June 16 2010 Elvis Presley and Eliza Presley’s court case became part of this forensic examination due to the thread “TIai update #6: Michael & Elvis, DOuble-bam This Summer?!?” by TS.
In forensic examination there’s no place for emotions. Fact is that in official forensic examinations investigators are taken off a case when they start getting emotionally involved. In official forensic examinations no stone is unturned, also not when this part of the forensic examination could offend or hurt the people who are involved in this part of the investigation.
TS has always urged us to think for ourselves and unbiasedly assess evidence based upon the evidence itself—and not on who the evidence came from, or who we think it came from. That automatically also means to examine the presented evidence, based upon the evidence itself—and not on who the evidence came from, or who we think it came from.
This post is however not about TS, this post is about Eliza Presley’s court case.
In one of my posts about Eliza’s court case in the thread “Linda Hood Sigmund's website update” at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15574&start=0 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15574&start=0) I wrote these paragraphs:
Second - I don't think a court ruling in Eliza's favor regarding her Complaint to Determine Parentage and Heirship will automatically bring trouble to the Elvis Presley Estate. Someone will have to start a lawsuit against the Elvis Presley Estate and file the Eliza Presley court ruling as evidence. As you said the Elvis Presley Estate still earns around $50 million a year, and there's no way they will give up on that just like that, they will fight that suit in every way they can.
Highly plausible scenario: They will demand a new DNA swap from Jesse. The last one was taken in 2008, they can say he could have passed away in the meanwhile. Do you think the Elvis Presley Estate would accept DNA on an envelop, sent in by mail? I don't think so... They would demand a swap being taken from Jesse by an expert, and they will probably demand that witnesses from the Estate be present when that happens.
I decided to investigate the scenario I described in the last paragraph a bit more. My investigation is purely based upon the facts Andrew Mayoras provides us with in his blogs which are, according to Mayoras, based on Eliza Presley’s story as he writes: “Eliza Presley shared her DNA evidence with me, as well as the story about how she got it”.
First of all, I reread the article Mayoras links to titled “Estate of Elvis' dad reopened for woman claiming she's his daughter” at http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... aim-shes-/ (http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/oct/08/vernon-presleys-estate-reopened-womans-claim-shes-/)
Nowhere in this article does it say that the DNA test results were submitted, accepted and used as evidence to have Vernon Presley’s estate re-opened. The article mentions Eliza testified she has DNA proof, she said she obtained Elvis Presley's DNA from an envelope, and that he [Jesse] thinks he's Elvis Presley. She said that DNA, along with samples from a Presley cousin, showed she is not the daughter of Elvis, as she initially thought, but of Vernon. Nowhere in this article does it say she already proved by the submitted DNA evidence that Vernon Presley is her father.
The “Order Reopening Estate”, which I downloaded from the website of the Probate Court of Shelby County Tennessee, confirms this. Here’s a link to that order:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/ ... estate.pdf (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/order_reopening_estate.pdf)
The “Order Reopening Estate” reads:
“This cause came to be heard on October 8, 2008 upon the sworn Petition of Eliza A. Presley, a nonresident of Shelby County, Tennessee, to Reopen the Estate of Vernon E. Presley, who died a legal resident of Shelby County, Tennessee, to determine Heirship, and to Redistribute the Net Estate, from all of which it appears:”
“4. Eliza A. Presley alleges that she is a Pretermitted Heir of Vernon E. Presley.”
As far as I was able to research, in case of a Petition for Paternity involving an alleged deceased father of which the estate is closed, the estate has to be re-opened so that its interests (and the interests of his heirs) can be represented. The court can not leave his estate unopened and unrepresented. Had the judge not re-opened Vernon’s estate, then no one would have been given the opportunity to appear, answer, raise appropriate defences, challenge the validity of the submitted DNA test results, and no one would have been given the opportunity to challenge the paternity judgment on Vernon’s behalf. Had Vernon’s estate not been re-opened, a final ruling in Eliza’s Paternity case would have easily been declared void due to a failure to join necessary parties (Vernon’s heirs).
Again, the “Order Reopening Estate” confirms this:
“A. That proper process be issued upon the surviving heirs of Vernon E. Presley; the Clerk is hereby directed to cause Summons to be issued and serve upon all known heirs of Vernon E. Presley.”
Mayoras states on his blog regarding re-opening Vernon’s estate: “That alone was a big accomplishment, because no Presley Estate had ever been reopened”. Well, many people had tried to sue Elvis Presley Enterprises over the years, usually a self proclaimed love child of Elvis, but this was the first time that someone had claimed being Elvis' half sister. Since there’s no reason at all to re-open Vernon’s estate for a self proclaimed love child of Elvis, and no one had ever before claimed to be a child of Vernon, there had never been a reason at all to re-open Vernon’s estate. Eliza’s claim, alleging that she is a Pretermitted Heir of Vernon E. Presley, was the first claim an alleged child of Vernon filed.
According to Mayoras Eliza refiled the paternity case on August 14, 2009. That indicates she initially filed a paternity case in 2008, but she filed in probate court and that was the wrong court because heirship will not be decided by a probate court. According to the “Order Reopening Estate”, the Probate Court re-opened that estate (based on upon the sworn Petition of Eliza A. Presley, a nonresident of Shelby County, Tennessee, to Reopen the Estate of Vernon E. Presley) to issue proper process upon the surviving heirs of Vernon E. Presley, and not based on the evidence Eliza provided as Mayoras makes it look like. Probate court can’t rule on paternity and heirship, so there was no reason for probate court to thoroughly examine her complaint and the submitted evidence. Petitioning to Re-open an Estate and Petitioning for Paternity and Heirship are two totally different things.
Summary: In my opinion Mayoras sensationalizes the re-opening of Vernon’s estate on his blogs, but according to the law this was a normal, legal procedure. Vernon’s estate was re-opened to establish a correct court case for the surviving heirs of Vernon E. Presley for when Eliza was filing a Petition for Paternity.
On his blogs Mayoras describes how Eliza got possession of the DNA samples of Jesse Presley, Donna Presley and Brenda Smith.
- Suzanne Stratford reported she was contacted by Jesse. In 2002 Stratford asked for, and received, a cheek swab DNA sample of Jesse. In 2008 Eliza received a pink envelop which was lick-sealed by the same person that had submitted the cheek swab DNA sample back in 2002.
- Donna Presley sent Eliza's children a sealed envelope with strands of her hair in it.
- Brenda Smith’s DNA was taken from cigarette butts. Lois Smith Black, Elvis' maternal aunt (related through marriage) took these cigarette butts from the ashtray her daughter had been using one night and sent them to Eliza.
According to Mayoras all DNA samples were analyzed by Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada. According to Mayoras it’s the only lab to have issued reports about all the various samples. When Eliza Presley filed her Complaint to Determine Parentage and Heirship in the Shelby County, TN Chancery Court on 08/14/2009 she submitted the DNA test results as evidence to support her request to be declared the daughter of Vernon Elvis Presley and the half-sister of Elvis A. Presley.
Now right here a problem kicks in. This way of submitting DNA samples does not assure anyone of the identity of the individuals who say they were tested. The main difference between Eliza’s submitted test results and legal test results is that there is no Chain of Custody in Eliza’s tests.
Chain of Custody refers to the chronological documentation or paper trail, showing the seizure, custody, control, transfer, analysis, and disposition of evidence. The Chain of Custody requires that from the moment the evidence is collected, every transfer of evidence from person to person be documented and that it be provable that nobody else could have accessed that evidence.
A Chain of Custody is a legal documentation process that proves:
- Samples are collected by a neutral third party, such as a clinic or laboratory
- The individuals tested are positively identified (i.e. They presented a government-issued ID and are photographed and fingerprinted for records.).
- The samples are carefully tracked throughout the process.
- The tested parties sign a Client Identification and Consent Form
The way Eliza obtained the DNA samples is totally lacking Chain of Custody legal documentation process.
Since Eliza had been required to sign a non-disclosure agreement with FOX 8 News about Jesse's DNA sample from 2002 she could not use this sample, and therefore she needed Jesse to lick-seal the pink envelop. I seriously doubt a Chain of Custody test was done in 2002 as the Fox8 video from 2008, narrated by Suzanne Stratford, clearly states at 2.45:
“Jesse, doctor Hinton’s patient, sent us his DNA, which we tested against several items, certified as The King’s, including blood stained jeans.”
[youtube:1j8p8w2t]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhb8jVN6Tl8[/youtube:1j8p8w2t]
Eliza could, due to the non-disclosure agreement with FOX 8 News, only use the test results from the lick-sealed envelop that was mailed to her which wasn’t obtained by Chain of Custody.
Chain of Custody is required for the DNA test results to be legally defensible (accepted by courts and other government agencies). DNA test results without Chain of Custody have minimal legal standing because it is generally impossible to independently verify the identity of the individuals who have been tested. Only a DNA parentage test that follows strict chain of custody can generate legally admissible results that are used in a court of law.
I have visited a large number of websites of DNA testing laboratory in the United States and found this information listed on all of these websites. I sent some of them the following email describing a situation similar to Eliza’s except in “my case” my alleged half brother has collected the items containing DNA and shipped them to me:
Dear sir, madam,
I'd like to get your expert advice on the following:
I'm currently living abroad, but I was born in the US and put up for adoption when I was a baby. Recently I may have found my biological family. It looks like I have a half brother, allegedly his father is my father as well. Unfortunately my alleged father is deceased...
My alleged half brother gathered items containing DNA from himself, a cousin on his maternal side and a cousin on his paternal side and shipped these items to me.
My question is: is your lab able to extract their DNA from these items (hair and items containing saliva), test it and compare it to my DNA?
If so, then my next question is: suppose the test results prove we are related, what would be the legal standing of these DNA test results after following the procedure I described above, and will I be able to submit these results as evidence when I file a petition for paternity in a Tennessee court of law?
I'd really appreciate it if you could answer my questions, and I'm looking forward to your reply.
Sincerely,
Monique
I received the following answers:
From DNA Identifiers at http://www.dna-testing-paternity.com/ (http://www.dna-testing-paternity.com/):
“Below is some information about Sibling DNA Testing. Unfortunately this test would not be a Legal test and could not be used for official reasons. In order to have a test that you could use for official/legal reasons we would need to have the DNA samples collected by a clinic or doctorr.”
From Genesys at http://www.paternity-answers.com/ (http://www.paternity-answers.com/):
“These reports cannot be used in court as there is no chain of custody to back up where the samples came from.”
From Universal Genetics at http://www.dnatestingforpaternity.com/ (http://www.dnatestingforpaternity.com/):
“In terms of the samples that you mentioned in your message that your half-brother has collected for himself and his cousins, if what you are looking to have in the end is a document that is valid for any type of legal procedure we would not recommend testing those samples.
The type of samples that you would be sending have not followed a proper chain of custody procedure, and therefore, we would be able to test them, but we would not use any names on the final report. That is, the final results would be completely anonymous since we cannot be certained whose samples you are providing.”
I even emailed Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada, the laboratory that analyzed Eliza’s samples, and received the following answer:
“For any paternity test results you require for use in court, a Legal paternity test (one requiring chain of custody) will need to be done. Using the home test will raise too many questions and the results may be thrown out because the samples were not collected in a legal fashion.”
I then decided to verify this information with a lawyer in Tennessee who specializes in paternity cases. Here’s the email I sent this lawyer (I have removed the name of the lawyer in order to avoid him being harassed by email to get my personal info, as I have emailed him from my personal email address):
Dear Mr. […],
I'm sorry for taking up your time, but I can't find the answer I'm looking for on the internet despite extensive searching. Hopefully you are able and willing to answer my question.
My question is: is a chain of custody DNA test required when one files a Petition for Paternity in a Tennessee court of law and wants to submit DNA test results as evidence in order to prove parentage, or can one simply submit the test results of a home paternity DNA test as evidence?
I would really appreciate it if you could answer my question, and I'm looking forward to your reply.
Sincerely,
Mo
His reply to me was:
Yes, a chain of custody is required, which is why one cannot just submit a home DNA test. Another way to establish paternity is for both parents to swear in open court that they are certain that the man is the biological father.
I then sent him another email, to make sure we’re talking about the same type of Petition for Paternity:
Dear Mr. […],
Is a chain of custody also required when it's a paternity case in which the alleged father is deceased, but DNA test results of family members could be submitted as evidence in order to prove parentage?
Sincerely,
Mo
He replied:
Yes. The chain of custody assures the court of the identity of the individuals who say they were tested.
In my emails to this lawyer I referred to Eliza Presley’s case as a Petition for Paternity, as this is how it’s listed on the website of the Shelby County, TN Chancery Court:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/eliza_pfp.jpg)
So what does this mean? It simply means that the DNA test results Eliza Presley submitted as evidence to prove parentage, which are lacking the Chain of Custody legal documentation process, are not admissible in court.
I know that the first question people would ask now is: Why hasn’t the judge thrown out her case, since it was filed on August 14, 2009 already? As of the date Eliza filed this complaint, Lisa Marie Presley and all other surviving or unknown heirs of Vernon Presley were given 12 months time to object to her complaint. Until someone files an objection within these 12 months, there’s no reason for a court to pay attention to the content of the petition nor to the submitted evidence. As far as I was able to research it, that won’t happen until:
- An objection is filed,
- A Motion for Default Judgment is filed.
In this case a Motion for Default Judgment was filed by the plaintiff, and the judge was scheduled to rule on the Motion by September 10, 2010 because the defendants were given 30 days to object to this motion. Before ruling on the motion, the judge would start examining the petition. It never came to a ruling around September 10, as on August 16, 2010 attorney William R. Bradley (who represents Elvis Presley Enterprises and Lisa Marie Presley-Lockwood) filed a Motion for Summary Judgement.
According to Andrew Mayoras attorney William R. Bradley filed a 20-pages motion, asking the judge to dismiss Eliza's lawsuit on legal grounds, such as the "statute of limitations" (meaning that too many years have passed, he argued, since Vernon died) as well as that Eliza was adopted by another family (he argued the adoption means she can't become a legal heir of Vernon).
Mayoras provides us with a PDF file of the Motion for stay on Motion for Summary Judgment Eliza’s attorney Kathleen L Caldwell filed on Eliza’s behalf, he published a PDF files of the letter attorney Kathleen L Caldwell sent to William R. Bradley, but does not provide us with a PDF file of William R. Bradley’s motion.
In his latest blog Mayoras writes:
"I also emailed him [William R. Bradley] directly and offered him for a chance to respond to the last article I wrote on this topic. He wrote me back and politely declined to do so, without explanation."
but he doesn’t provide us with PDF files of the letters.
I don’t know why Mayoras doesn’t provide us with PDF files of the letters between William R. Bradley and himself nor with a PDF file of William R. Bradley’s motion, since he is already telling us what according to him is written in it, but I’m not going to speculate about why we are not provided with this motion because I simply don’t know the answer.
On 10/27/2010 a Scheduling Conference was set for November 30, but that Scheduling Conference was reset to December 14 on 11/10/2010.
Before the conference takes place, the judge studies each file in advance and gets acquainted with the case for each side. Since the DNA test results Eliza Presley submitted as evidence to prove parentage are not admissible in court, the judge can’t rule on her Petition for Paternity based on her DNA evidence. The judge comes to this conclusion by studying the case himself and I’m quite positive that in case he doesn’t notice this, attorney William R. Bradley will point out to the inadmissible evidence. Therefore, according to the law, Eliza’s case should be dismissed.
The inadmissible DNA evidence would explain why Lisa Marie Presley never bothered to send in a DNA sample so that it could be tested against anyone claiming to be related to Elvis. Why would she do that while she most likely already knew the DNA evidence Eliza submitted is per definition inadmissible?
I can not imagine that neither both Eliza’s attorneys Glenwoon P. Roane (who filed the original complaint on behalf of Eliza) and Kathleen L Caldwell (Eliza’s current attorney), Eliza Presley herself and probate lawyer Andrew Mayoras did not know in advance that Eliza’s submitted DNA evidence, lacking Chain of Custody which is required when filing a Petition for Paternity in a Tennessee court of law, would be inadmissible.
The choice of words by Maroyas in his latest blog post is certainly interesting:
“Eliza Presley and her lawyer are trying to convince a judge to accept evidence and issue an order that would mean what the world believed to be fact, for more than 30 years, was actually fiction.”
They are trying to convince a judge to accept evidence and issue an order? In case admissible DNA evidence was submitted, then they wouldn’t have to try to convince a judge to accept that evidence.
When statutory rules are adhered and this case will be dismissed, the only thing Eliza might be able to do is obtain Chain of Custody DNA test results and file a new Petition for Paternity. In that case Jesse Presley, Donna Presley and Brenda Smith will have to submit new DNA according to the legal documentation process including being positively identified (i.e. they present a government-issued ID and are photographed and fingerprinted for records).
Immediately these questions arise: If Jesse Presley is, to this very day, still alive, can he show a valid, legit government-issued ID, is he willing to officially identify himself, does he wants to be photographed and is he willing to have his fingerprints taken when Eliza asks him for a Chain of Custody DNA test?
If, and I say IF, the judge rules in Eliza’s favour based on the inadmissible DNA test results, then it’s still not case closed. Since Vernon Presley's estate was re-opened, Lisa Marie Presley can challenge the final paternity judgment.
If, and I say IF, it turns out that the DNA evidence submitted in court to prove parentage IS Chain of Custody DNA evidence after all, then Eliza Presley and Andrew Mayoras have been lying to everybody about how the DNA evidence was obtained and submitted in court as evidence for years.
One way or the other – someone is hiding the truth.[/b]
-
If the evidences are inadmissible, why are these people so willing to proceed with that case? for M.O.N.E.Y. maybe?
She testified she would be interested in sharing any money that might be left in the estate, but that her main goal is to be legally declared the daughter of Vernon Presley
but if she will be recognized the daughter of Vernon she will be the legal heir of Elvis too…..
Why Eliza is asking for money ( the donation button in her blog) if she probably knows that she will lose the case when the law will be applied and the evidences will be dismissed…?
Eliza Presley and her lawyer are trying to convince a judge to accept evidence and issue an order that would mean what the world believed to be fact, for more than 30 years, was actually fiction.
Try to convince?? I know that a lawyer tries to use every single tricks that he/she has in his/her pockets even 'to fool' the judge giving to the law his/her own interpretation, maybe a wrong one…. but a lawyer is more willing to help his/her client if behind the case he/she sees BIG bucks!
-
Mo, you made a very good analysis.
I always thought that those DNA proofs were taken and accepted within the law to proceed with a court meeting.
Back to point 0 again?
-
Mo, you made a very good analysis.
I always thought that those DNA proofs were taken and accepted within the law to proceed with a court meeting.
Back to point 0 again?
I second this.
Mo you have proven through investigation the concerns a number of us raised about the validity of the DNA evidence as described by A Mayoras and Eliza.
I have been wondering for a while whether MJ may be orchestrating the whole Linda/Eliza/Elvis/Mayoras story and if so with which intend?
-Revealing that Elvis did indeed hoax his Death whether the latter wants it or not.
-Adding an additional "twist" in the hoax production and getting us into a rabbit hole --- in a symbolic move to bury Elvis once more.
-Testing our capability in assessing information --- MO you passed the test!
The Eliza Presley court hearing being on the 14th December, on the same day the new album is due to be released is more than a mere coincidence IMO....
This is all puzzling!
With L.O.V.E
-
The Eliza Presley court hearing being on the 14th December, on the same day the new album is due to be released is more than a mere coincidence IMO....
This is all puzzling!
With L.O.V.E
.... and what about if when the Eliza's lawyer asked when to reschedule it, Eliza pointed out the 14th December date...? After all, this is not an hearing... it's just a meeting...
BTW I don't think MJ is behind Eliza's court case..... probably she is just using MJ hoax and MJ fans, but this is just my opinion...
-
The Eliza Presley court hearing being on the 14th December, on the same day the new album is due to be released is more than a mere coincidence IMO....
This is all puzzling!
With L.O.V.E
.... and what about if when the Eliza's lawyer asked when to reschedule it, Eliza pointed out the 14th December date...? After all, this is not an hearing... it's just a meeting...
BTW I don't think MJ is behind Eliza's court case..... probably she is just using MJ hoax and MJ fans, but this is just my opinion...
This is another option Puff! However what is the role of TS in all of this? I somehow cannot imagine TS being Hoaxed that easily and HE is the ONE who took us there!
With L.O.V.E
-
Don't get me wrong because I don't want to attack anyone.
But I was wondering why Eliza is asking for donations?
I thought the American lawyer payment system, most of the time is on a No Cure No Pay base?
Specially in cases where there is a lot of money involved.
And I really think that this is such a case.
Its not only about Vernon being the father, Elvis is also mentioned.
Or am I missing something here?
Chappie
-
The Eliza Presley court hearing being on the 14th December, on the same day the new album is due to be released is more than a mere coincidence IMO....
This is all puzzling!
With L.O.V.E
.... and what about if when the Eliza's lawyer asked when to reschedule it, Eliza pointed out the 14th December date...? After all, this is not an hearing... it's just a meeting...
BTW I don't think MJ is behind Eliza's court case..... probably she is just using MJ hoax and MJ fans, but this is just my opinion...
This is another option Puff! However what is the role of TS in all of this? I somehow cannot imagine TS being Hoaxed that easily and HE is the ONE who took us there!
With L.O.V.E
I knew it would be just a matter of time before the question “What is the role of TS in all of this?” would appear after posting this thread. In my opinion, there are two possible answers to this question.
Option 1:
No, he didn’t know, he believed Eliza’s evidence to be legal evidence, admissible in a court of law, like all of us did.
In my opinion TS is way too smart to be fooled, so I vote for option 2.
Option 2:
Yes he knew, but he was testing us to see if we would indeed be able to unbiasedly assess evidence based upon the evidence itself—and not on who the evidence came from, or who we think it came from.
In TIai update #6: Michael & Elvis, DOuble-bam This Summer?!? TS wrote these paragraphs regarding his identity:
For your information: I am familiar with the STUDY website. Does this mean that it is me, my website? Maybe; or maybe it’s someone I know; or maybe that website was used as a decoy. Regardless of which is the actual case: you are being tested, to see whether you can unbiasedly assess evidence based upon the evidence itself—and not on who the evidence came from, or who you think it came from, etc.
Many are failing the test, and they didn’t even know that they were being tested. In fact, there is no better way to test people, than to do it without their knowledge; then people act natural, and don’t try to make themselves into something artificial. Does it make any difference, whether you pass or fail this test? Good question; but I won’t give the answer to that right now.
In his post “Silencing the Critics, And $999 REwarD??? You bET”, posted September 9, he says:
Passing the test does not mean gullibly believing anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it; you have always been asked to verify the evidence for yourself, and debunk it if you can, etc. However, those who refuse anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it—regardless of any and all evidence that has never yet been debunked—they are not at the A+ level on the report card!
All I did was assess the evidence based upon the evidence we were presented with, and after extensive research (based on the stories we have been provided with by Eliza Presley and Andrew Mayoras on how Eliza got possession of the DNA from Jesse, Donna & Brenda) and verifying my findings with several experts it turns out that the evidence on which Eliza’s court case is based is inadmissible.
I did however not question the authenticity of the DNA evidence itself and I won’t even go there, because I simply don’t know if it’s authentic or not. There’s no way any one of us will be able to find out about that until those DNA test results are no longer under seal, and only when they are no longer under seal we can actually assess and verify them.
IF IT TURNS OUT THIS INDEED WAS A TEST:
To the ones who will get angry with TS – Don’t blame TS. In fact, if it turns out that this was a test, then there’s no one to blame but yourself. You, like me, gullibly believed everything TS said in Update #6. Keep in mind that he simply summarized the already existing stories on the internet, he didn’t make this up himself.
Don’t point out fingers to TS, but look in the mirror and point towards the one you see in that mirror - the one who was gullible.
We were warned.[/b]
-
Wow, great work Mo. I bet you were up for days trying to figure this out. This is nuts.
So, why did TS start talking about this case if it's not what it seems? Is that the point? For us to figure that out on our own? Or am I missing something?
God this is interesting... I had a feeling something was up after Linda said she didn't support the case.
This doesn't necessarily mean that the whole thing is a lie. Eliza could very well be telling the truth about knowing Jesse and about Vernon being her father. Perhaps she knows without having concrete "proof" but wants to get the proof. Maybe she knows of Jesse by some other means than what she said, but maybe he has not provided her the DNA yet but she knows thats her ticket. Or maybe she does have the DNA already and is trying to talk the judge into letting it be used as evidence.
And these are the days of our lives.... :lol:
Wonder what happens next!
-
... and not being gullible applies to everyday life when watching news, reading newspaper, writing/reading in a forum. God, I LOVE being on this forum! I learn SO MUCH!
-
And my personal opinion, so don't get me wrong again.
If I would have DNA prove that someone was my father.
That would be enough for me.
My search would be over.
But who am I.... ;)
But then again.....I guess it's all about the Money....is it Honey?
Chappie
[youtube:vxyps4sa]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTf40cSDnDE[/youtube:vxyps4sa]
-
And my personal opinion, so don't get me wrong again.
If I would have DNA prove that someone was my father.
That would be enough for me.
My search would be over.
But who am I.... ;)
But then again.....I guess it's all about the Money....is it Honey?
Chappie
[youtube:17n44ka9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTf40cSDnDE[/youtube:17n44ka9]
You know, that is a very good point that I never thought of before but should have! Because I just met my biological father earlier this year. We have not had a paternity test. My mother always knew who my dad was but I just never met him. For one thing, I look just like him, so a test really isn't needed. I also am not sure what legal rights (if any) I would have to his money? It never even crossed my mind because all I wanted was to meet him. Now, my case is a bit different though because my father is still alive and is not a celebrity. But you would think that just knowing who her dad is would be sufficient. Ahhh.... my head hurts!
-
This is another option Puff! However what is the role of TS in all of this? I somehow cannot imagine TS being Hoaxed that easily and HE is the ONE who took us there!
With L.O.V.E
I knew it would be just a matter of time before the question “What is the role of TS in all of this?” would appear after posting this thread. In my opinion, there are two possible answers to this question.
Option 1:
No, he didn’t know, he believed Eliza’s evidence to be legal evidence, admissible in a court of law, like all of us did.
In my opinion TS is way too smart to be fooled, so I vote for option 2.
Option 2:
Yes he knew, but he was testing us to see if we would indeed be able to unbiasedly assess evidence based upon the evidence itself—and not on who the evidence came from, or who we think it came from.
In TIai update #6: Michael & Elvis, DOuble-bam This Summer?!? TS wrote these paragraphs regarding his identity:
For your information: I am familiar with the STUDY website. Does this mean that it is me, my website? Maybe; or maybe it’s someone I know; or maybe that website was used as a decoy. Regardless of which is the actual case: you are being tested, to see whether you can unbiasedly assess evidence based upon the evidence itself—and not on who the evidence came from, or who you think it came from, etc.
Many are failing the test, and they didn’t even know that they were being tested. In fact, there is no better way to test people, than to do it without their knowledge; then people act natural, and don’t try to make themselves into something artificial. Does it make any difference, whether you pass or fail this test? Good question; but I won’t give the answer to that right now.
In his post “Silencing the Critics, And $999 REwarD??? You bET”, posted September 9, he says:
Passing the test does not mean gullibly believing anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it; you have always been asked to verify the evidence for yourself, and debunk it if you can, etc. However, those who refuse anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it—regardless of any and all evidence that has never yet been debunked—they are not at the A+ level on the report card!
All I did was assess the evidence based upon the evidence we were presented with, and after extensive research (based on the stories we have been provided with by Eliza Presley and Andrew Mayoras on how Eliza got possession of the DNA from Jesse, Donna & Brenda) and verifying my findings with several experts it turns out that the evidence on which Eliza’s court case is based is inadmissible.
I did however not question the authenticity of the DNA evidence itself and I won’t even go there, because I simply don’t know if it’s authentic or not. There’s no way any one of us will be able to find out about that until those DNA test results are no longer under seal, and only when they are no longer under seal we can actually assess and verify them.
IF IT TURNS OUT THIS INDEED WAS A TEST:
To the ones who will get angry with TS – Don’t blame TS. In fact, if it turns out that this was a test, then there’s no one to blame but yourself. You, like me, gullibly believed everything TS said in Update #6. Keep in mind that he simply summarized the already existing stories on the internet, he didn’t make this up himself.
Don’t point out fingers to TS, but look in the mirror and point towards the one you see in that mirror - the one who was gullible.
We were warned.[/b]
Mo, I agree that this is not about whether to Blame TS or Not - my conscience is totally clear on this!
TS did not get HOAXED by Eliza... but is it possible that TS has got no involvement at all in staging any of it... really?...
IMO, TS either used existing characters and events to test us or TS (I mean MJ sorry!) is orchestrating the whole Linda/Eliza/Elvis/Mayoras story in order to either reveal that Elvis did indeed hoax his Death (whether the latter wants it or not) or to Add an additional "twist" in the hoax production and get us into a rabbit hole --- in a symbolic move to bury Elvis once more and teach us a lesson in the process.
With L.O.V.E
-
Got to read that later ... I almost had a heart attack! :lol:
... but if this was the test then I lamentably failed ...
-
Mo, I agree that this is not about whether to Blame TS or Not - my conscience is totally clear on this!
TS did not get HOAXED by Eliza... but is it possible that TS has got no involvement at all in staging any of it... really?...
IMO, TS either used existing characters and events to test us or TS (I mean MJ sorry!) is orchestrating the whole Linda/Eliza/Elvis/Mayoras story in order to either reveal that Elvis did indeed hoax his Death (whether the latter wants it or not) or to Add an additional "twist" in the hoax production and get us into a rabbit hole --- in a symbolic move to bury Elvis once more and teach us a lesson in the process.
With L.O.V.E
Well, if TS is orchestrating Eliza's case, he is involved also in the donation thing, while he KNOW that the evidences were inadmissible......So do you really think he allow Eliza to ask people money for her case?
I don't know if this is the test or Eliza fooled TS... I have to think more about that.... BUT I'm sure that TS or MJ are not behind her case....
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
I don't think Mike would accept the donation button....
But that is just my humble opinion.... ;)
Chappie
-
And my personal opinion, so don't get me wrong again.
If I would have DNA prove that someone was my father.
That would be enough for me.
My search would be over.
But who am I.... ;)
But then again.....I guess it's all about the Money....is it Honey?
Chappie
[youtube:3doz98fv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTf40cSDnDE[/youtube:3doz98fv]
I completely agree with you. I've thought the same thing since I first started reading about Eliza's claims and case. The minute she proves that she is a legal heir to Vernon (if it ever happens), she will likely go after the estate for Vernon's stake, since Vernon was a member of the estate prior to his death in 1980. Eliza will say that she is entitled to Vernon's portion (or at least half of it since the other half should really go to the other heir - Lisa).
I've never understood why she is so hell bent on proving that Vernon is her biological father (except for the money aspect of course). If he is her father, he clearly wanted nothing to do with her, hence her being put for adoption, so why else would she want to prove it so badly? I know 2 different people who were adopted as infants, and neither of them has any desire to find their biological parents, since the biological parents chose to give them up. I have been following this story because I'm intrigued that Elvis may still be alive, but I have thought since day one that Eliza's ultimate goal is to stake a claim for some of the estate's money since Vernon was a member of the estate.
However, I also agree that the DNA evidence shouldn't be admissible without the proper chain of custody, so I have doubts that this case will ever go anywhere. I think Eliza is just wasting her money.
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
I don't think Mike would accept the donation button....
But that is just my humble opinion.... ;)
Chappie
I know, I keep thinking of that also. I am curious to see if Eliza will confront this issue. Will be interesting to see what she has to say.
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
We are not saying that Elvis is not alive and the Elvis/MJ parallels don't exist... Those stuffs are there... Eliza wants to prove that Elvis is alive and she got his DNA just to prove that she is his half-sister and Vernon's daughter.. We are not even saying that Eliza's evidences are not real.... Mo pointed out that those evidences are inadmisible in her court case for the lack of the chain of custody..... There is no money left in Vernon's estate.... the DNA evidences have already showed that she is his daughter... my question is WHY she wants so bad that verdict? I repeat... if she will win the case she will become Elvis heir as well.........
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
I don't think Mike would accept the donation button....
But that is just my humble opinion.... ;)
Chappie
I know, I keep thinking of that also. I am curious to see if Eliza will confront this issue. Will be interesting to see what she has to say.
Let me quess.....there will be no reply.....
someone is suddenly dead?
Impossible would you think if you are already dead..... ;)
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
We are not saying that Elvis is not alive and the Elvis/MJ parallels don't exist... Those stuffs are there... Eliza wants to prove that Elvis is alive and she got his DNA just to prove that she is his half-sister and Vernon's daughter.. We are not even saying that Eliza's evidences are not real.... Mo pointed out that those evidences are inadmisible in her court case for the lack of the chain of custody..... There is no money left in Vernon's estate.... the DNA evidences have already showed that she is his daughter... my question is WHY she wants so bad that verdict? I repeat... if she will win the case she will become Elvis heir as well.........
No I don't think so that she will be Elvis heir as well....
Unless....
Lisa Marie is not the daughter we all think she is....
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
We are not saying that Elvis is not alive and the Elvis/MJ parallels don't exist... Those stuffs are there... Eliza wants to prove that Elvis is alive and she got his DNA just to prove that she is his half-sister and Vernon's daughter.. We are not even saying that Eliza's evidences are not real.... Mo pointed out that those evidences are inadmisible in her court case for the lack of the chain of custody..... There is no money left in Vernon's estate.... the DNA evidences have already showed that she is his daughter... my question is WHY she wants so bad that verdict? I repeat... if she will win the case she will become Elvis heir as well.........
No I don't think so that she will be Elvis heir as well....
Unless....
Lisa Marie is not the daughter we all think she is....
Well, if she will win the case, with the verdict in her pocket, she could try to get money from Elvis' estate... who knows..... :arrow:
-
I keep thinking about the elvisandmj.com thing... that's why I feel like yes this probably was a test of some kind, but that doesn't mean that Elvis isn't alive and that Mike didn't get alot of inspiration from him. Maybe Eliza does want to prove Elvis is alive. Maybe she knows more about both fake deaths than we know about? Maybe she is unable to prove all of this with legal DNA evidence, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some kind of evidence and it doesn't mean that she can't still be telling the truth. It just might mean that there are hidden motives, but not necessarily "bad" ones.
We are not saying that Elvis is not alive and the Elvis/MJ parallels don't exist... Those stuffs are there... Eliza wants to prove that Elvis is alive and she got his DNA just to prove that she is his half-sister and Vernon's daughter.. We are not even saying that Eliza's evidences are not real.... Mo pointed out that those evidences are inadmisible in her court case for the lack of the chain of custody..... There is no money left in Vernon's estate.... the DNA evidences have already showed that she is his daughter... my question is WHY she wants so bad that verdict? I repeat... if she will win the case she will become Elvis heir as well.........
No I don't think so that she will be Elvis heir as well....
Unless....
Lisa Marie is not the daughter we all think she is....
Well, if she will win the case, with the verdict in her pocket, she could try to get money from Elvis' estate... who knows..... :arrow:
They will need another DNA kitt....:)
Is LMP ready to take the plane back to the USA?
[youtube:2ziyd3ea]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcI8AiCO9cU[/youtube:2ziyd3ea]
-
I also am not sure what legal rights (if any) I would have to his money? It never even crossed my mind because all I wanted was to meet him. Now, my case is a bit different though because my father is still alive and is not a celebrity. But you would think that just knowing who her dad is would be sufficient. Ahhh.... my head hurts!
According to the law in EU If your father recognized you lawfully in court, you will be his heir also. Civil registration will be needed and he declearing that he is your dad.
-
TS pointed some redirections to this case. People got the impression that TS was supporting Eliza´s case.
What I don´t understand is how people can apply in court not having the basic requirements for submitting an application.
If A-B and C is needed to proceed, neither A B or C can be missing.
I think that we are may be pointed to this case to see the lagoons in the legal system in USA?
-
TS pointed some redirections to this case. People got the impression that TS was supporting Eliza´s case.
What I don´t understand is how people can apply in court not having the basic requirements for submitting an application.
If A-B and C is needed to proceed, neither A B or C can be missing.
As far as I know - basically one can file in court whatever one wants. You file, you pay the required fee and that's it. It's then up to the judge to decide if there are enough grounds to proceed.
-
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
-
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Yes. That is how I understand it too, at least. I suppose they have procedures for a reason. If someone has DNA that they "say" is from a certain person, and the individual is certain that it is real DNA evidence, that still does not provide proof of where they got it because nobody else was there to document it.
-
That's exactly how I understand it too, and it would make perfect sense that all the DNA was verified as belonging to who it was claimed to belong to, with paperwork and all, so it could be used successfully in a court. Handing over items and claiming the DNA was from certain people is not going to convince anyone, let alone a court, that the DNA in fact came from those individuals. I'm puzzled as to why Eliza would be looking for donations when her legal advisers must have told her the DNA evidence wouldn't be admissable in court. There has to be more to this, as Mo says. December 14 is shaping up to be a VERY interesting day...
-
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
-
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
LOL! :lol: Yes I understand better. I really am an empty shell when it comes this.
-
Is anyone going to ask the probate lawyer about why he has written, the articles concerning this case, the way he has?
This lawyer, is obviously aware of the requirements of "Chain of Evidence". He would also know that these requirements haven't been met. He would also be aware that the DNA isn't admissible and that the case will most likely be dismissed or overturned on appeal and yet he has misrepresented that (or neglected to mention it) and is deceiving people about this case in his blog.
Is anyone going to ask Eliza about this and why she is asking for donations?
If she knows that the case will be dismissed because the DNA is inadmissible and is than asking for money to support her, this is very questionable behaviour.
Mo, bravo very in-depth investigation. thank you for sharing this with us all. I also sadly must admit that I failed the test if this is what it was all about. :oops:
We live and learn!
-
Maybe that Elvis himself will show up finally? I feel like I'm losing my mind piece by piece :?
-
Is anyone going to ask the probate lawyer about why he has written, the articles concerning this case, the way he has?
This lawyer, is obviously aware of the requirements of "Chain of Evidence". He would also know that these requirements haven't been met. He would also be aware that the DNA isn't admissible and that the case will most likely be dismissed or overturned on appeal and yet he has misrepresented that (or neglected to mention it) and is deceiving people about this case in his blog.
Is anyone going to ask Eliza about this and why she is asking for donations?
If she knows that the case will be dismissed because the DNA is inadmissible and is than asking for money to support her, this is very questionable behaviour.
Good point about the lawyer's blog. Surely he knows this info and you wouldn't think he would want to write about it that way if he knew that nothing would come of it. That would only make him look ignorant, especially as a lawyer.
I think Eliza visits our forum. But I have a feeling she might not respond unless directly asked. There's also a chance that she won't see this thread, or at least not right away. Perhaps someone representing this site could send her an email.
-
Is anyone going to ask the probate lawyer about why he has written, the articles concerning this case, the way he has?
This lawyer, is obviously aware of the requirements of "Chain of Evidence". He would also know that these requirements haven't been met. He would also be aware that the DNA isn't admissible and that the case will most likely be dismissed or overturned on appeal and yet he has misrepresented that (or neglected to mention it) and is deceiving people about this case in his blog.
Is anyone going to ask Eliza about this and why she is asking for donations?
If she knows that the case will be dismissed because the DNA is inadmissible and is than asking for money to support her, this is very questionable behaviour.
Good point about the lawyer's blog. Surely he knows this info and you wouldn't think he would want to write about it that way if he knew that nothing would come of it. That would only make him look ignorant, especially as a lawyer.
I think Eliza visits our forum. But I have a feeling she might not respond unless directly asked. There's also a chance that she won't see this thread, or at least not right away. Perhaps someone representing this site could send her an email.
Well, as I am not a very tactful person (as is obvious by my posts) someone else will have to tackle that and that is why I asked.
-
Maybe that Elvis himself will show up finally? I feel like I'm losing my mind piece by piece :?
I don't think so, IMO Elvis is not interested in spotlight at all, and as far as he wrote - " Sir, I don't know if you believe in my continued existence or not, but if I continue to expose myself like I did in the book, I will be eliminated very easily. Pure and simple as that"- it's for his safety as well....
-
Why would Eliza want to prove in court that she is Vernon´s daughter, why isn´t it enough for her to just know? We simply don´t know. Everyone has different reasons to do different things. Some might think it's enough to just know, others may have reasons to think otherwise. It is not up to us to judge that. If I look at all the people ridiculing her, I think I might have done the same. Sometimes you just want to be taken serious and shoot down your opposers.
Eliza already has the evidence herself which she filed in court accompanied with a sworn statement where the samples came from. Jesse's samples might have been from anyone, but if he relates to both sides of Elvis' family tree, he is either Elvis or Elvis' brother, who died at birth. No one of us has ever seen the evidence so formally we don't even know it exists, we only know it was filed and that it was reason enough to open the estate. There have been many blogs and threads on Elvis forums already about the validity of the DNA evidence, so this is really nothing new. The fact that it is not legal evidence, does not mean that it is not evidence. No one is opposing her evidence, they oppose her case claiming it has been too long ago. If the evidence was false, the estate would have opposed the evidence and would have made sure the case would have been dismissed by the court if they don't want her to proceed.
On this site we discuss the fact that Michael Jackson is still alive, without having any legal evidence at all. If we look at the legal 'evidence', Murray was charged for manslaughter and MJ is dead. But enter common sense and MJ is clearly alive. I use my common sense with this case as well. Eliza does not have the financial means to get the legal DNA evidence as described, so she filed the evidence she does have. As soon as someone will oppose her evidence, they need to prove she is wrong and then the required tests will have to be done. She paid thousands of dollars for this case and she will gain nothing from it (at least not from any estate) since she is not the legal heir of Elvis, LMP is, and Vernon's Estate doesn't have a dollar in it anymore. Some people might think that LMP is Vernon´s daughter and not Elvis´, that is fine and everything is possible, but that is just a theory. LMP was born in the marriage between Elvis and Priscilla and is therefore the only legal heir of Elvis until proven otherwise, which would be a complete different case and has nothing to do with this one. And if that would be the case, then how would Eliza know that so sure that she would walk through 2 expensive lawsuits to get that proven? On emust be very sure about that to risk that amount of money, time and ridicule. Besides that, filing a false sworn statement to gain money out of this is fraud, and therefore a crime. That means Eliza can be sued for that, and also for accepting donations. If you look at the giant she is fighting in this case, a false sworn statement would mean asking for getting bankrupt, because the estate would be very willing and able to prove her wrong. Besides that, I am sure LMP wouldn't allow fraud in her father's name and would have made a statement one way or the other that she does not support the case.
As for her not needing money for this case: that's not true. Filing documents, traveling costs, lawyer costs etc. all need to be paid by her, but that aside.
I am not jumping on this bandwagon and I can imagine some of the comments are even hurtful. As long as neither of us know the truth about this case or the MJ hoax, I am not judging anyone. As I get from the replies, this is merely to search for proof that Eliza is in it for the money. Sorry, but this didn't convince me at all. Vernon's estate is empty and she will not be the legal heir of Elvis if she wins this, Lisa Marie is. We gain nothing but confusion and prejudice with this.
Eliza contacted me and asked me to delete her account, since she feels offended by some of the posts. WE invited HER in here, she did not come herself to "play with the MJ fans". We tweeted the site to her a hundred times before she decided to join and post something. She felt support from us after all the bashing she has already endured the last couple of years and now we are pushing her away again and judging her because her evidence is not legal. People still believe it's real, but not legal. I didn't know that was the same as fraud. Questioning is fine, judging based on theories is not in my book.
I am sorry, but I am not participating in this. To hell with any tests, if I fail this test, I fail without any regrets. There are real people out there as well that have real feelings. I for one can speak out of experience about what comments on a screen can do. There might not be legal DNA evidence, but there is no evidence at all that this is all fraud or a test or whatever, that are just theories. I will not accuse someone of fraud because of this and I do not stand for that. This is not my thread and I will let it be, I just wanted to make clear what my opinion is on the accusations this is leading towards.
-
Is anyone going to ask the probate lawyer about why he has written, the articles concerning this case, the way he has?
This lawyer, is obviously aware of the requirements of "Chain of Evidence". He would also know that these requirements haven't been met. He would also be aware that the DNA isn't admissible and that the case will most likely be dismissed or overturned on appeal and yet he has misrepresented that (or neglected to mention it) and is deceiving people about this case in his blog.
Is anyone going to ask Eliza about this and why she is asking for donations?
If she knows that the case will be dismissed because the DNA is inadmissible and is than asking for money to support her, this is very questionable behaviour.
Good point about the lawyer's blog. Surely he knows this info and you wouldn't think he would want to write about it that way if he knew that nothing would come of it. That would only make him look ignorant, especially as a lawyer.
I think Eliza visits our forum. But I have a feeling she might not respond unless directly asked. There's also a chance that she won't see this thread, or at least not right away. Perhaps someone representing this site could send her an email.
Maybe the probate lawyer knows about the lack of the chain of custody, but A LOT of lawyers do EVERYTHING just to win a case....... and that lawyer is writing books and promoting them all over his blog........ :roll:
-
Souza, you made a lot of good points as well. I personally am not judging this either way. I don't think this makes Eliza a fraud or money-hungry. I think that we should give her a chance to explain this in a way that is easier to understand. Legal talk and real talk are just so different. That was kind of what I was trying to say in one of my earlier posts. Just because something isn't legal doesn't mean it's not real. Like I said before, I found out who my real dad was and met him, but I am not legally claimed by him or anything. But that doesn't change the fact that he's my dad. I personally would not take him to court for it, but as I said, this is a different situation and Eliza's dad is not living so she will never get to meet him.
When did Eliza contact you, Souza? Do you mean recently in response to this particular thread or was it months ago when we first welcomed her?
This doesn't change the Elvis/MJ connections and it doesn't change the fact that Elvis is alive. I feel there has to be a way to discuss this respectively and objectively, and if we contact Eliza we cannot accuse her or jump to conclusions. I'm just thinking if this was all be speculated about me, I would want the chance to explain.
The fact that it is not legal evidence, does not mean that it is not evidence. No one is opposing her evidence, they oppose her case claiming it has been too long ago. If the evidence was false, the estate would have opposed the evidence and would have made sure the case would have been dismissed by the court if they don't want her to proceed.
That part specifically is a good point. Surely they wouldn't let this go on if her evidence was fake...
-
I think that we should wait and see what is going to happen on the 14th.
-
I think that we should wait and see what is going to happen on the 14th.
GOOD IDEA! :)
Thank you for being the "voice of reason", lol! We need that sometimes!
-
@ Souza
The sworn statement it's not like the chain of custody...
The Presleys don't know if the items that they sent her were the items that she sent to the LAB for the DNA tests.. They lost sight of them the moment that they put them into the mailboxes. They can't swear about something they lost track of....
And also Eliza can't swear these items containing DNA came from the presleys, because she doesn't know that...
Eliza does not have the financial means to get the legal DNA evidence as described, so she filed the evidence she does have. As soon as someone will oppose her evidence, they need to prove she is wrong and then the required tests will have to be done.
Oh, so all the people involved have already agreed on taking legal tests..? Then why not do them right away, as these tests are per definition inadmissible. They just waisted a whole year...
BUT....It's not true...... The case will be dismissed if she doesn't have the legal DNA...
And as far as I understand she doesn't have it.....
-
I think that we should wait and see what is going to happen on the 14th.
GOOD IDEA! :)
Thank you for being the "voice of reason", lol! We need that sometimes!
Thanks Jaci ;) We don't know what can happen....
-
That's the problem, it's all "As far as I understand" and "As far as I am concerned" etc. and based on that someone is accused in this thread of fraud, while none of us know the complete story. I have told my opinion on this case many times and again in my post above, I only now wanted to point out that I do not agree with a go to accuse someone like that we invited ourselves without ANY evidence at all. Because Mo posted this thread, some might think I also agree with where this is leading towards, but I don't. That's all.
I agree with Sarahli, we should wait and let it unfold.
-
That's the problem, it's all "As far as I understand" and "As far as I am concerned" etc. and based on that someone is accused in this thread of fraud, while none of us know the complete story. I have told my opinion on this case many times and again in my post above, I only now wanted to point out that I do not agree with a go to accuse someone like that we invited ourselves without ANY evidence at all. Because Mo posted this thread, some might think I also agree with where this is leading towards, but I don't. That's all.
I agree with Sarahli, we should wait and let it unfold.
I agree too.
-
Same here, there has to be more to this, why would Eliza put herself through all this scrutiny otherwise? She wouldn't be so brazen as to request donations for a case she knew wasn't going to go anywhere, so she has to either have the DNA proof or needs help/funds to get it the "legal" way so that there can be no questions. I think it's a real shame she no longer wants to be here, I didn't notice anyone mention fraud or imply it but if they did that's obviously hurtful to her. I don't think that was Mo's intention, either, she was just pointing out the legalities and how the DNA evidence would have to be papertrailed for it to be admissable in court. I hope Eliza didn't feel people here were accusing her of anything.
-
Souza - did you get a chance to read the interview in this thread? viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15793 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15793)
I think if Eliza didn't truly believe she is Vernon's daughter, she would have abandoned this whole thing a long time ago. No one is that persistent unless they know they're right...just look at us hoaxers! ;)
-
I don't think anyone is saying she is being fraudulent. I don't think that this means the DNA is fake either, it just isn't legally acceptable so it won't legally establish that Eliza is Vernon's daughter or that Jesse is Elvis.
The DNA may very well be from the Presley's and Jesse but if it hasn't been collected in a manner that is acceptable to the court then it won't prove the case legally and the case will be dismissed. If the judge accepts the DNA evidence, it sets a good case for that to be overturned on appeal.
I am not a lawyer so I don't know if the court can compel the Presley family members to submit to a legally accepted DNA test, if they don't want to do that willingly, if the case is dismissed or overturned on appeal. Does anyone know if there is a legal precedent for that? Is anyone in the Presley camp willingly agreeing to a DNA test to support Eliza's case? Is Jesse willingly submitting DNA to support the case?
-
I don't think anyone is saying she is being fraudulent. I don't think that this means the DNA is fake either, it just isn't legally acceptable so it won't legally establish that Eliza is Vernon's daughter or that Jesse is Elvis.
The DNA may very well be from the Presley's and Jesse but if it hasn't been collected in a manner that is acceptable to the court then it won't prove the case legally and the case will be dismissed. If the judge accepts the DNA evidence, it sets a good case for that to be overturned on appeal.
I know what the difference is between legal DNA evidence and non-legal. But fraud is implied in the thread and that to me is enough. I wanted to be clear about that because to me that's wrong.
-
Oh my.
:shock:
First this is a surprise but, I was unaware of the fact that Eliza's DNA evidence wasn't done with the chain of custody in mind. I did take the words of TS and Eliza at face value. I trusted them because for me I saw no logical reason for either of them to lie about this. I gave them the benefit of doubt and still do. I do understand the need for the chain of custody being important in a court of law.
I have experience in this kind of matter. When my daughter was born and it came time to fill out the paper work for her birth certificate in the state of Oregon you are not allowed by law to name any father you want if you are not legally married or the father is not present to actually sign the certificate acknowledging he is the father. Those are legal reasons.
When it came time to prove paternity the state of Hawaii sent me a notice to show up to a clinic designated by them to provide a DNA swab from myself and my daughter. I had to provide an I.D. showing that I was who I said I was. I also had to have my daughter with me so she could have her cheek swabed. They took polariod pictures of myself and her as back up to prove who we are. Her father was also sent a letter stating he had to do the same at a clinic of their choice in his state of Ohio.
The chain of custody was intact because all those procedures were done and witnessed by the clinician. Even after the swabs were verified/tested and I was sent a paper stating that 99.9% he was her father that wasn't good enough to prove he was in a court of law.
The next step was to go to court and have a judge legally state he was.
Even when I was in court in the state of Hawaii and he was not because he lived in Ohio, during the court procedure the judge stopped and had the clerk make a phone call to him because they still needed his acknowledgment that he was.
It is a long process but, it was done with a chain of custody. Legally now she is his daughter because the court said so. I am able to change her birth certificate because the court said I could.
On the adoption thing, I am adopted and at one point desired to know who I came from. That was a feeling that has since passed and I no longer desire to know but, I am always curious.
Every adoptee has their own personal reason as to why they want to know and prove who and where they came from. It does sadden me to read about how Eliza feels now.
Peace
-
I don't think anyone is saying she is being fraudulent. I don't think that this means the DNA is fake either, it just isn't legally acceptable so it won't legally establish that Eliza is Vernon's daughter or that Jesse is Elvis.
The DNA may very well be from the Presley's and Jesse but if it hasn't been collected in a manner that is acceptable to the court then it won't prove the case legally and the case will be dismissed. If the judge accepts the DNA evidence, it sets a good case for that to be overturned on appeal.
I know what the difference is between legal DNA evidence and non-legal. But fraud is implied in the thread and that to me is enough. I wanted to be clear about that because to me that's wrong.
I do think it's important we don't jump to conclusions or accuse anyone of anything, because we simply don't know. I don't see anything wrong with talking about it though (respectfully) and investigating (respectfully).
Let's just wait and see what happens. Surely there has to be many aspects to all of this that we do not know, therefore we can't really judge any of it. I think Eliza is telling the truth about DNA, and I hope that her evidence is allowed in court. I would guess that most don't think she's a fraud, they are just afraid that nothing will come of the case because of this, and that we won't have an Elvis "Bam", which doesn't help with this hoax at all, you know? You'd think we'd all have learned to be a bit more patient by now... :lol:
-
I thank you Souza for bringing another view to counteract and balance. I am saddened that Eliza feels alienated.
What I'm concerned about is our own people who were alienated when the Elvis/MJ parallells started in TIAI. We lost some excellent members and it hurts me to consider that it was for no good reason. The mention of money clouds issues and colours everything and yet it is impossible to accomplish much without it.
I for one will sit and watch this play out, without passing judgment. As for adoption issues, my mother was, and those scars run deep to this day in her 78 year old soul.
I must add that I hope talk of money does not lead to trouble with our Army of L.O.V.E. site thats underway.
-
Eliza already has the evidence herself which she filed in court accompanied with a sworn statement where the samples came from. Jesse's samples might have been from anyone, but if he relates to both sides of Elvis' family tree, he is either Elvis or Elvis' brother, who died at birth.
Like Puff already said – neither the people who mailed the items containing DNA to Eliza nor Eliza herself can swear where these samples came from, as through the shipping process they both lost sight of the items. They will never be able to prove where it came from because it went through too many hands. Besides that, since Eliza needs Jesse’s sample to prove that Vernon is her father, that sample will have to be a Chain of Custody DNA test in order to be admissible evidence.
The law states the requirements evidence has to meet in order to be admissible in a court of law. In case the evidence doesn’t meet these requirements, it’s inadmissible. When it comes to using DNA evidence in a court of law, a Chain of Custody test is required.
No one of us has ever seen the evidence so formally we don't even know it exists, we only know it was filed and that it was reason enough to open the estate.
The “Order Reopening Estate” states that the reason to reopen Vernon’s estate was:
“A. That proper process be issued upon the surviving heirs of Vernon E. Presley; the Clerk is hereby directed to cause Summons to be issued and serve upon all known heirs of Vernon E. Presley.”
The “Order Reopening Estate” also states that:
“This cause came to be heard on October 8, 2008 upon the sworn Petition of Eliza A. Presley, a nonresident of Shelby County, Tennessee, to Reopen the Estate of Vernon E. Presley, who died a legal resident of Shelby County, Tennessee, to determine Heirship, and to Redistribute the Net Estate, from all of which it appears:”
Nowhere does the “Order Reopening Estate” states that the Probate Court of Shelby County reopened Vernon’s estate based on the submitted DNA evidence. It is possible that they have reopened it because Eliza testified to have DNA evidence, but since Probate Court can not rule on paternity and heirship, the only thing they could do was reopen the estate to establish a proper process in which Vernon’s heir were able to participate, and leave the assessment of the evidence to the Chancery Court.[/b]
There have been many blogs and threads on Elvis forums already about the validity of the DNA evidence, so this is really nothing new.
So what you’re saying is that you knew this all along. As you can see by the replies this IS new to our members and was also new to me, so we would have really appreciated it had you shared your knowledge with all of us from the moment you were aware of this.
The fact that it is not legal evidence, does not mean that it is not evidence. No one is opposing her evidence, they oppose her case claiming it has been too long ago. If the evidence was false, the estate would have opposed the evidence and would have made sure the case would have been dismissed by the court if they don't want her to proceed.
First of all – we can only go by what Mayoras says what is written in William Bradley’s Motion for Summery Judgement. Second – since the submitted DNA evidence is lacking Chain of Custody there’s not really a reason to oppose it, as by law it’s inadmissible. It was not until now that a Conference is scheduled that there is the need for the judge to study the case and the submitted evidence.
As soon as someone will oppose her evidence, they need to prove she is wrong and then the required tests will have to be done.
The DNA evidence she submitted has no Chain of Custody and is therefore inadmissible. No one will have to prove she is wrong. Again: the law states the requirements evidence has to meet in order to be admissible in a court of law. In case the evidence doesn’t meet these requirements, it’s inadmissible.
As to Eliza’s reaction about the replies in this thread: If her whole case would have been presented crystal clear, everyone would have known right from the start that the DNA evidence she submitted is not Legal Evidence. After discovering that this is not the case people felt deceived, and therefore I understand people questioning her motives, airing their opinion about it and, although there should have been no space for this in a forensic investigation, emotions kicking in.
-
I did NOT say that Eliza was NOT telling the truth about the DNA.
BUT....she got the DNA in 2002 from the very same person that asked her in 2009 to stop the court case.
And if that someone that supplied you with the DNA that gave you the proof of who really your father is, is asking you very, very urgently to stop/drop the case, it does not show any RESPECT for that person.
Then you are only thinking of your own gain.
Her fortune will come from being the person who proves that Elvis is alive. Her options will be endless...movie deals, book deals, interviews, etc.
Her drive is to prove that Elvis is alive for her personal gain.
If she loves the one she calls her half brother and would never do anything to hurt him why is she doing something against his will?
Is this how you treat the one you love?
I dont think so because it shows no RESPECT at all.
SO I CHALLENGE ELIZA TO COME TO THIS THREAD AND POST THE REAL REASONS SHE HAS FOR PROCEEDING THE COURT CASE!
[youtube:3n7e5rvq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbi3o1o-jDs[/youtube:3n7e5rvq]
Chappie
-
Is anyone going to ask the probate lawyer about why he has written, the articles concerning this case, the way he has?
This lawyer, is obviously aware of the requirements of "Chain of Evidence". He would also know that these requirements haven't been met. He would also be aware that the DNA isn't admissible and that the case will most likely be dismissed or overturned on appeal and yet he has misrepresented that (or neglected to mention it) and is deceiving people about this case in his blog.
Is anyone going to ask Eliza about this and why she is asking for donations?
If she knows that the case will be dismissed because the DNA is inadmissible and is than asking for money to support her, this is very questionable behaviour.
Mo, bravo very in-depth investigation. thank you for sharing this with us all. I also sadly must admit that I failed the test if this is what it was all about. :oops:
We live and learn!
I have dropped a few lines to Andrew Mayoras asking him to explain how the DNA evidence was being used in the case and whether it could be used as evidence in a court of law (Chain of custody requirement). We shall see if I get a reply!
Mo has done a great job in highlighting some potential gaps in the case but there are many more questions we need answers to before we can draw any meaningful conclusions.
1. Linda Hood was supporting the Eliza case until at least the 1st November. Why did she change her mind? Jesse said so! Then what made Jesse suddenly change his mind?
2. Why would Andrew Mayoras distort the Truth on purpose?
3. Why would Donald Yates (Owner of DNA Consultants) state publicly "I think the DNA taken from the person named Jessie can only be DNA of Elvis Presley" ?
4. Why was Linda Hood playing Hide & seek with the 9th August TS re-direct?
5. Why is Eliza rational in seeking to be recognised as Elvis half sister?
6. What are TS intentions with the Elvis case?
I do not have answers to any of those questions at the moment, all I could do is ASSUME, and I won't even go there! As Sarahli suggested, we may have to wait until the 14th to get some answers... or maybe TS will help us a bit.
With L.O.V.E
-
It seems to me very good research of Mo, there are many things that I did not know. With respect to Eliza, she and her lawyer should be aware that the chain of custody is not fulfilled and that his case will most likely be admissible is not a court, I'm not going to judge Eliza, I guess that will have the responses.
Chappie wrote what is valid, maybe it will give DNA evidence to know who is really his father, and everything ended there.
And with regard to TS, well he himself wrote, we should not believe everything that TS writes, by the fact that TS .. not believe everything you write, learning to think for oneself, to be critical to investigate everything you read here (as well as the investigation of Mo) and elsewhere .. I think I have read TS post once again.
-
I apologize if the information was posted already and I missed it but I have a question. Why can't the cousins that provided the DNA samples in the first place just provide a new sample? Leaving Jesse totally aside, are these two other people (maternal and paternal Elvis cousins) still alive? This would negate the old samples completely and effectively prove Eliza is related to Vernon Presley, wouldn't it?
I also vote wait and see, but I have no back round in legal-ese to be confident to form any kind of opinion yet.
-
Is anyone going to ask the probate lawyer about why he has written, the articles concerning this case, the way he has?
This lawyer, is obviously aware of the requirements of "Chain of Evidence". He would also know that these requirements haven't been met. He would also be aware that the DNA isn't admissible and that the case will most likely be dismissed or overturned on appeal and yet he has misrepresented that (or neglected to mention it) and is deceiving people about this case in his blog.
Is anyone going to ask Eliza about this and why she is asking for donations?
If she knows that the case will be dismissed because the DNA is inadmissible and is than asking for money to support her, this is very questionable behaviour.
Mo, bravo very in-depth investigation. thank you for sharing this with us all. I also sadly must admit that I failed the test if this is what it was all about. :oops:
We live and learn!
I have dropped a few lines to Andrew Mayoras asking him to explain how the DNA evidence was being used in the case and whether it could be used as evidence in a court of law (Chain of custody requirement). We shall see if I get a reply!
Mo has done a great job in highlighting some potential gaps in the case but there are many more questions we need answers to before we can draw any meaningful conclusions.
1. Linda Hood was supporting the Eliza case until at least the 1st November. Why did she change her mind? Jesse said so! Then what made Jesse suddenly change his mind?
2. Why would Andrew Mayoras distort the Truth on purpose?
3. Why would Donald Yates (Owner of DNA Consultants) state publicly "I think the DNA taken from the person named Jessie can only be DNA of Elvis Presley" ?
4. Why was Linda Hood playing Hide & seek with the 9th August TS re-direct?
5. Why is Eliza rational in seeking to be recognised as Elvis half sister?
6. What are TS intentions with the Elvis case?
I do not have answers to any of those questions at the moment, all I could do is ASSUME, and I won't even go there! As Sarahli suggested, we may have to wait until the 14th to get some answers... or maybe TS will help us a bit.
With L.O.V.E
1. Linda has never supported the case, but she gave the update because the Jesse's DNA involved in it.
If you will note, I have stated a number of times, when posting an update on the case that my only interest in this case was because it involved Jesse's DNA. I have not posted one word of update about anyone involved in this case
2. He is a lawyer, and as I've already said it's the lawyer job.............
3.Because it's the truth, we are not saying that the DNA results are fake....
4. I don't know, but it could be a coincidence after all....
5. Only Eliza knows the answer to this question..
6. I'd LOVE to know them too.... but I have my own opinion on that...
Nobody talked about fraud, IMO it's clear that behind this case there is not only the willing to know the truth about her father...She knew already, after the DNA results,who her father is... so it's not hard to see what is the hidden truth....
-
Mo, you made a very good analysis.
I always thought that those DNA proofs were taken and accepted within the law to proceed with a court meeting.
Back to point 0 again?
I second this.
Mo you have proven through investigation the concerns a number of us raised about the validity of the DNA evidence as described by A Mayoras and Eliza.
I have been wondering for a while whether MJ may be orchestrating the whole Linda/Eliza/Elvis/Mayoras story and if so with which intend?
-Revealing that Elvis did indeed hoax his Death whether the latter wants it or not.
-Adding an additional "twist" in the hoax production and getting us into a rabbit hole --- in a symbolic move to bury Elvis once more.
-Testing our capability in assessing information --- MO you passed the test!
The Eliza Presley court hearing being on the 14th December, on the same day the new album is due to be released is more than a mere coincidence IMO....
This is all puzzling!
With L.O.V.E
You are absolutely right and that's why the song is called Breaking News.. It may have something to do with it. We just have to wait and see. i commend Mo wonderful investigation.
-
5. Why is Eliza rational in seeking to be recognised as Elvis half sister?
I have the same question TheRunningGirl, and I have already addressed this question in another thread last week.
In her Complaint to Determine Parentage and Heirship Eliza is not only asking to be recognized as the biological daughter of Vernon, but specifically also asks to be recognized as the half sister of Elvis as well. To me it seems only logical that once she is recognized as Vernon's daughter, she is automatically recognized as Elvis' half sister, so why ask specifically to be recognized as the half sister of Elvis as well? Why does she want a final court ruling to state she's the half sister of Elvis Presley?
I'm very sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings by stating my opinion, but in my opinion more emphasis is put on "proving that Elvis is alive" than on proving that Vernon Presley is Eliza's father.
I keep asking myself over and over again if Elvis would want it to be proven that he is still alive. Then three answers keep popping up:
- Jesse wrote a letter to the Attorney General supporting Dr. Hinton and refuting the mail fraud claims. He included the following in his letter: "Sir, I don't know if you believe in my continued existence or not, but if I continue to expose myself like I did in the book, I will be eliminated very easily. Pure and simple as that"
- Had Jesse been wanted to be identified as Elvis, he simply could have submitted a Chain of Custody DNA test.
- TS' statement in Update #6: Even now, Elvis/Jesse is not interested in the spotlight; he wants to remain in privacy.
According to the above three answers Jesse is taking safety precautions. I can't help but have uncomfortable feelings about this court case as a final court ruling could jeopardize Jesse's safety. If this is the case, then the next question arises:
Is legally proving that Vernon is Eliza's father, if this has already been proven by the DNA test results, worth putting her brother's safety at stake? If so, then why?[/b]
-
So Eliza what is the reason?
[youtube:1khwr2oz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYpjCQ3ApuI[/youtube:1khwr2oz]
-
IMO, TS was only interested in the Eliza's verdict that would have proved that Elvis is alive to the world so people could see the Elvis and Mj parallels and realized that Mj could be alive as well.... the whole TS statement, is:
"Even now, Elvis/Jesse is not interested in the spotlight; he wants to remain in privacy. At least for Elvis, the concept of “bam” refers to the final court ruling on Eliza’s case, and/or the media reporting that he is still alive (rather than Elvis himself performing again, or even being seen by the public)."
So bringing the Elvis alive thing to the media attention would have not harmed his saftey as well and his privacy..? Maybe the media will not track him down, but they will start an HUGE hunt man...
TS even supported the media rally, we tweeted ElvisandMjdotcom and http://www.elvisandmj.com (http://www.elvisandmj.com) redirected to update 6 and the entire Eliza/Elvis story...
He even wrote:
And speaking of MJ planning intentional parallels with the Elvis “death”: although some responded very positively to http://www.ElvisAndMJ.com (http://www.ElvisAndMJ.com), and the Elvis/Eliza developments, unfortunately many others did not.
Furthermore, even though Elvis fans have been saying he’s alive for 33 years, yet only recently has DNA evidence surfaced that scientifically proves Elvis lives! We don’t need to be intimidated anymore, by those who ridicule Elvis being alive as a crazy “conspiracy theory”; we can challenge them with hard DNA evidence, the Eliza court case, no Elvis relative has provided DNA to disprove Eliza, etc.
So if this was a test, we should have challenged the opposers with something that was merely a test for the MJ hoax believers...?
IMO TS didn't know anything about the lack of the Chain of Custody, and its consequences for the case, probably he saw the Eliza's case as a huge opportunity to connect even more the two hoaxes and a concrete proof to demonstrate that, with all the MJ/Elvis parallels, MJ is alive...
-
I am not a lawyer so I don't know if the court can compel the Presley family members to submit to a legally accepted DNA test, if they don't want to do that willingly, if the case is dismissed or overturned on appeal. Does anyone know if there is a legal precedent for that? Is anyone in the Presley camp willingly agreeing to a DNA test to support Eliza's case? Is Jesse willingly submitting DNA to support the case?
I'm going to answer your questions with a question:
How can someone, who is legally declared dead, be subpoenaed to submit a legally accepted DNA test?
-
*Mo* wrote:
Serenitys_Dream wrote:
I am not a lawyer so I don't know if the court can compel the Presley family members to submit to a legally accepted DNA test, if they don't want to do that willingly, if the case is dismissed or overturned on appeal. Does anyone know if there is a legal precedent for that? Is anyone in the Presley camp willingly agreeing to a DNA test to support Eliza's case? Is Jesse willingly submitting DNA to support the case?
I'm going to answer your questions with a question:
How can someone, who is legally declared dead, be subpoenaed to submit a legally accepted DNA test?
The whole process of Eliza is riddled with errors and inconsistencies and finally going to be rejected by that, then my question is, why his lawyer did not say things as they really are?, Or both are aware of this and even so they try to move forward.
Eliza knows she is the daughter of Vernon Presley, but she wants to be known as the person who says that Elvis is alive?
-
And my personal opinion, so don't get me wrong again.
If I would have DNA prove that someone was my father.
That would be enough for me.
My search would be over.
But who am I.... ;)
But then again.....I guess it's all about the Money....is it Honey?
Chappie
[youtube:b1rtbf9c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTf40cSDnDE[/youtube:b1rtbf9c]
You know, that is a very good point that I never thought of before but should have! Because I just met my biological father earlier this year. We have not had a paternity test. My mother always knew who my dad was but I just never met him. For one thing, I look just like him, so a test really isn't needed. I also am not sure what legal rights (if any) I would have to his money? It never even crossed my mind because all I wanted was to meet him. Now, my case is a bit different though because my father is still alive and is not a celebrity. But you would think that just knowing who her dad is would be sufficient. Ahhh.... my head hurts!
Exactly that should suffice. But than if this doesn't go to trial how are we ever going to know that Elvis is alive? I think Elvis is tired of being incognito and wants to resurface again. It must be lonely to be all alone away from your family. Probably what he wants to do is the little time he has left, he wants to spend it with the grandkids and his daughter. Don't forget he is 77 yrs old. oops look at that the 7 coming out again. :lol: This is my opinion.
-
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
Mo I would like to ask you a question. Eliza has a lawyer, how come he did not advise her about this chain of Custody?
I think that would have been the first step to the right direction. Unless nothing is true. Again maybe it is all lies again.
-
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
Mo I would like to ask you a question. Eliza has a lawyer, how come he did not advise her about this chain of Custody?
I think that would have been the first step to the right direction. Unless nothing is true. Again maybe it is all lies again.
You will need ask Eliza and her lawyer about this, I can't answer your question.
-
Sarahli wrote:
Maybe that Elvis himself will show up finally? I feel like I'm losing my mind piece by piece
:lol: :lol:
In this case the only option we have is the hope that the court's discretion, and that explanation has TS.
-
Sarahli wrote:
Maybe that Elvis himself will show up finally? I feel like I'm losing my mind piece by piece
:lol: :lol:
In this case the only option we have is the hope that the court's discretion, and that explanation has TS.
Well, TS hasn't given explanations yet, and I think it's not fair because the Eliza thing has a BIG part in his redirections and in posts, but he told us " Think for yourself" and if you re-read update 6 an 9/9/10 post you'll get the right answer...
-
Well, TS hasn't given explanations yet, and I think it's not fair because the Eliza thing has a BIG part in his redirections and in posts, but he told us " Think for yourself" and if you re-read update 6 an 9/9/10 post you'll get the right answer...
And I hate to be the one to say it but lots of people did think for themselves and didn't want to be a part of the whole Elvis/MJ thing.
-
I am not good at laws and I don't understand very well what's happening.
So, the idea is:
Eliza's DNA evidence is a false DNA and so the DNA she has from this Jesse does not fit with the Presley family? That would mean that Jesse is not Elvis?
I am really not good at laws, if someone could please explain in lay man's words what all this mean?
I can say that this whole Elvis thing never convinced me, after I read it, but I didn't dismiss the possibility, as anything can be possible after all. But this whole story was simply hard to believe.
I simply never believed that the woman who claims to be in contact with Jesse (Elvis) told the truth. I mean it would mean to believe someone just because. I never do that.
The main problem I see is that TS has been insisting with this Elvis story for so long, at some moments it just turned into a whole Elvis situation rather than Michael's. TS kept insisting that as long as dr. Hinton and Linda (?) are Elvis' informers, then TS and TMZ are Michael's informers. Is that right? If this woman and dr. Hinton are two big liars then what's the conclusion? I don't jumpt at any conclusion, I just say what we all wonder right now.
And no, I don't agree that the whole Elvis/MJ thing that TS took the time to post was a "test". He wouldn't have put so much work in just a "test". "Think for yourself" would have been enough. Not to post so much about Elvis, give redirections on it.So this Elvis thing will clarify all.
-
I am not good at laws and I don't understand very well what's happening.
So, the idea is:
Eliza's DNA evidence is a false DNA and so the DNA she has from this Jesse does not fit with the Presley family? That would mean that Jesse is not Elvis?
No, we are not saying that the DNA results are fakes, please re-read it.
The DNA evidences are inadmissible in court because of the lack of the chain of custody...
-
I am not good at laws and I don't understand very well what's happening.
So, the idea is:
Eliza's DNA evidence is a false DNA and so the DNA she has from this Jesse does not fit with the Presley family? That would mean that Jesse is not Elvis?
No, we are not saying that the DNA results are fakes, please re-read it.
The DNA evidences are inadmissible in court because of the lack of the chain of custody...
That's why I ask for an explanation more in lay man terms, I simply don't understand all these legal things. Then how is it?
-
I am not good at laws and I don't understand very well what's happening.
So, the idea is:
Eliza's DNA evidence is a false DNA and so the DNA she has from this Jesse does not fit with the Presley family? That would mean that Jesse is not Elvis?
No, we are not saying that the DNA results are fakes, please re-read it.
The DNA evidences are inadmissible in court because of the lack of the chain of custody...
That's why I ask for an explanation more in lay man terms, I simply don't understand all these legal things. Then how is it?
Anna, I already explained this to Sarahli on page 2 of this thread:
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
-
I did NOT say that Eliza was NOT telling the truth about the DNA.
BUT....she got the DNA in 2002 from the very same person that asked her in 2009 to stop the court case.
And if that someone that supplied you with the DNA that gave you the proof of who really your father is, is asking you very, very urgently to stop/drop the case, it does not show any RESPECT for that person.
Then you are only thinking of your own gain.
Her fortune will come from being the person who proves that Elvis is alive. Her options will be endless...movie deals, book deals, interviews, etc.
Her drive is to prove that Elvis is alive for her personal gain.
If she loves the one she calls her half brother and would never do anything to hurt him why is she doing something against his will?
Is this how you treat the one you love?
I dont think so because it shows no RESPECT at all.
SO I CHALLENGE ELIZA TO COME TO THIS THREAD AND POST THE REAL REASONS SHE HAS FOR PROCEEDING THE COURT CASE!
[youtube:24bete4c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbi3o1o-jDs[/youtube:24bete4c]
Chappie
You have a point chappie, but if this Jesse (Elvis ) wants her to stop the case then why did he send her his DNA ? He should have not volunteer. When I watched the video on youtube Elvis's doctor clearly said that he was alive, he faked his death. Eliza has the rights to find her true father, and from investigation she found out that she is Elivs half sister, I actually do see the ressemblance with Elvis, she does have his traits. I don't think she is doing it for money, because at the begining she did not know who her real father was, It could have been Joe blow from didilido. :lol: So she did not wake up one day and said today I will say I am Elvis Presley half sister.. My question is Eliza has a lawyer, why didn't he tell her that she needed chain of custody? I think that should have been the first think he should have told her. We just have to wait and see what happens, I do wish the best for her. Blessings
-
Puff wrote:
paula-c wrote:
Sarahli wrote:
Maybe that Elvis himself will show up finally? I feel like I'm losing my mind piece by piece
In this case the only option we have is the hope that the court's discretion, and that explanation has TS.
Well, TS hasn't given explanations yet, and I think it's not fair because the Eliza thing has a BIG part in his redirections and in posts, but he told us " Think for yourself" and if you re-read update 6 an 9/9/10 post you'll get the right answer...
Well it is true what you say, here the point is, if Mo was capable of thinking for if same and this investigation, we make also have to think for us themselves
-
I am not good at laws and I don't understand very well what's happening.
So, the idea is:
Eliza's DNA evidence is a false DNA and so the DNA she has from this Jesse does not fit with the Presley family? That would mean that Jesse is not Elvis?
No, we are not saying that the DNA results are fakes, please re-read it.
The DNA evidences are inadmissible in court because of the lack of the chain of custody...
That's why I ask for an explanation more in lay man terms, I simply don't understand all these legal things. Then how is it?
Anna, I already explained this to Sarahli on page 2 of this thread:
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
But what I don't understand is that if the DNA Eliza provided proves that she is related to the Presely family and also Jesse's DNA proves she's his half sister, then isn't this identification?I mean the DNA is unique for everyone.This means it's a problem only about the name itself?I'm lost
-
Anna it just means that there would have to be paperwork filled out and a doctor or clinician present when the DNA samples were taken so that there is proof the samples came from who she says they came from. Otherwise she would have samples that she claimed were from certain people but they could have been from others. Legally there has to be a trail of paperwork, documenting and storage of the DNA so that it is without question obtained correctly and from the people its claimed to be from. Otherwise the court won't accept it as evidence. If it's not all been done according to the law her case could be thrown out. No one is doubting she has the DNA, it's just that according to the law she would have to get samples with a doctor present and have it documented and stored properly.
-
I am not good at laws and I don't understand very well what's happening.
So, the idea is:
Eliza's DNA evidence is a false DNA and so the DNA she has from this Jesse does not fit with the Presley family? That would mean that Jesse is not Elvis?
No, we are not saying that the DNA results are fakes, please re-read it.
The DNA evidences are inadmissible in court because of the lack of the chain of custody...
That's why I ask for an explanation more in lay man terms, I simply don't understand all these legal things. Then how is it?
Anna, I already explained this to Sarahli on page 2 of this thread:
Okay so I have read and tried to understand something. Basically I understand that it is the way the DNA has been collected that will cause problems? If so it does not make the DNA sample to be a fake. Now and sorry if I seem stupid but I don't understand that chain of custody thing. I mean that if the DNA sample has been proven to be from Elvis and if it matches Eliza's... what the chain of custody is for? Is it just about a legal procedure?
Chain of Custody in DNA testing means that the person who has submitted the DNA has to identify himself by showing a government-issued ID to an independent third party who is certified to collect the test. Then the whole process of handling, shipping, processing and analyzing the DNA sample has to be documented, meaning every step, from taking the swap up until the final analysis, must be written down and signed for by the persons who were in possession of the sample all through the process. Without Chain of Custody the court has no idea about the identity of the individual who was tested and who had access to the sample while being processed.
In this case the DNA sample has NOT been proven to be from Elvis, because since there is no Chain of Custody the person who submitted the DNA sample is NOT identified. This in simple words means that a court of law says this DNA sample could belong to just about everyone - from Bill Clinton to Bart Simpson.
In this case it's proven that there is a family connection between the submitted DNA samples, but since there is no Chain of Custody these DNA samples can't be submitted as evidence of Eliza's claim, because there is no evidence of these samples belonging to the Presleys.
But what I don't understand is that if the DNA Eliza provided proves that she is related to the Presely family and also Jesse's DNA proves she's his half sister, then isn't this identification?I mean the DNA is unique for everyone.This means it's a problem only about the name itself?I'm lost
Anna, none of the persons who submitted DNA has even taken the first step that HAS to be taken before doing a DNA test that is accepted by a court of law:
SHOWING A GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID, SUCH AS A PASSPORT OR DRIVERS LICENSE, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE THE PERSON THEY SAY THEY ARE.
Therefore it's NOT proven that Eliza is related to the Presleys. The DNA can show a family relation, but since it's not PROVEN and DOCUMENTED who the persons are who submitted this DNA, it can't be called "identification" like you did.
Just because of that alone the court can't, BY LAW, accept the DNA evidence Eliza submitted.
As far as the Elvis/Jesse DNA is concerned - someone who is LEGALLY DEAD doesn't even HAVE a government issued ID.
-
hi mo i have a question. isnt it possible for eliza to be vernons brother vester child since vernon and vester married two sisters ( gladys and clettes) even with the dna evidence she has wouldnt it still be the same outcome. this jesse could be vester and clettes son.
-
hi mo i have a question. isnt it possible for eliza to be vernons brother vester child since vernon and vester married two sisters ( gladys and clettes) even with the dna evidence she has wouldnt it still be the same outcome. this jesse could be vester and clettes son.
I really don't know bubaliciousjlb...
I didn't question the authenticity of the DNA evidence itself and I won’t, because I simply don’t know if it’s authentic or not. There are several possible scenarios but until these DNA test results are no longer under seal, discussing the possible scenarios is merely speculation.
-
Anna, none of the persons who submitted DNA has even taken the first step that HAS to be taken before doing a DNA test that is accepted by a court of law:
SHOWING A GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID, SUCH AS A PASSPORT OR DRIVERS LICENSE, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE THE PERSON THEY SAY THEY ARE.
Therefore it's NOT proven that Eliza is related to the Presleys. The DNA can show a family relation, but since it's not PROVEN and DOCUMENTED who the persons are who submitted this DNA, it can't be called "identification" like you did.
Just because of that alone the court can't, BY LAW, accept the DNA evidence Eliza submitted.
As far as the Elvis/Jesse DNA is concerned - someone who is LEGALLY DEAD doesn't even HAVE a government issued ID.
So it's a legal procedure problem. The DNA has to be provided to the court by legal procedures and not out of nowhere even if it shows a family relation.
If a dead person can't have a govermnent issued ID then how did Eliza even START this court case? The lawyers should have known from the very beginning how are the legal procedures.Why didn't they think from the very beginning about this? I understand that Jesse has to be identified as existing in order to fill the legal documents for providing the DNA. But Jesse is not registered? Even under the name "Jesse"?
This should mean that first it has to be proven who Jesse is in order to go and fill the legal procedure documents for the DNA?
I don't understand how they started the case if there wasn't legal evidence to submit? The lawyers didn't know the procedures? It's impossible. That would mean they wanted to go on with a fraud.
-
Anna, none of the persons who submitted DNA has even taken the first step that HAS to be taken before doing a DNA test that is accepted by a court of law:
SHOWING A GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID, SUCH AS A PASSPORT OR DRIVERS LICENSE, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE THE PERSON THEY SAY THEY ARE.
Therefore it's NOT proven that Eliza is related to the Presleys. The DNA can show a family relation, but since it's not PROVEN and DOCUMENTED who the persons are who submitted this DNA, it can't be called "identification" like you did.
Just because of that alone the court can't, BY LAW, accept the DNA evidence Eliza submitted.
As far as the Elvis/Jesse DNA is concerned - someone who is LEGALLY DEAD doesn't even HAVE a government issued ID.
So it's a legal procedure problem. The DNA has to be provided to the court by legal procedures and not out of nowhere even if it shows a family relation.
If a dead person can't have a govermnent issued ID then how did Eliza even START this court case? The lawyers should have known from the very beginning how are the legal procedures.Why didn't they think from the very beginning about this? I understand that Jesse has to be identified as existing in order to fill the legal documents for providing the DNA. But Jesse is not registered? Even under the name "Jesse"?
This should mean that first it has to be proven who Jesse is in order to go and fill the legal procedure documents for the DNA?
I don't understand how they started the case if there wasn't legal evidence to submit? The lawyers didn't know the procedures? It's impossible. That would mean they wanted to go on with a fraud.
Anna, like I wrote before:
The choice of words by Maroyas in his latest blog post is certainly interesting:
“Eliza Presley and her lawyer are trying to convince a judge to accept evidence and issue an order that would mean what the world believed to be fact, for more than 30 years, was actually fiction.”
They are trying to convince a judge to accept evidence and issue an order? In case admissible DNA evidence was submitted, then they wouldn’t have to try to convince a judge to accept that evidence.
No, it's not fraud, it's just trying to convince a judge to accept non legal evidence. That's not uncommon practice, lawyers always try to make the best of it for their clients, it's their job to try to convince judges and win their case.
And yes, in order to be able to use Jesse's DNA as evidence it should have been proven who Jesse is, and the law states that involves showing a government issued ID, being photographed and fingerprinted for records.
I'm asking you to read all the replies in this thread again, as all the questions you ask have already been addressed.[/b]
-
Ok. I understand.
So in order for this to be legal accepted evidence, Jesse has to be a real person and have the whole catalog with him (the documents who prove he exists and that the DNA sample belongs to him).
-
Ok. I understand.
So in order for this to be legal accepted evidence, Jesse has to be a real person and have the whole catalog with him (the documents who prove he exists and that the DNA sample belongs to him).
No Anna, in order for this to be legally acceptable evidence Jesse/Elvis would have had to identify himself BEFORE submitting the DNA samples.
The only way to prove that this is his DNA is performing a new Legal DNA Test, involving showing a government issued ID, being photographed and fingerprinted.
-
Ok. I understand.
So in order for this to be legal accepted evidence, Jesse has to be a real person and have the whole catalog with him (the documents who prove he exists and that the DNA sample belongs to him).
No Anna, in order for this to be legally acceptable evidence Jesse/Elvis would have had to identify himself BEFORE submitting the DNA samples.
The only way to prove that this is his DNA is performing a new Legal DNA Test, involving showing a government issued ID, being photographed and fingerprinted.
I don´t know why I assumed that Jesse and the rest providing DNA did that procedure in an authorized lab.
Does Jesse even exist? I only saw a pic of him and a psychiatric Doctor confirming that Jesse is his patient.
Is this a prank? I mean, Eliza seems to have real intentions about legalizing who her father is but so far no one has seen Jesse with the exception of Eliza and the Doctor.
-
Ok. I understand.
So in order for this to be legal accepted evidence, Jesse has to be a real person and have the whole catalog with him (the documents who prove he exists and that the DNA sample belongs to him).
No Anna, in order for this to be legally acceptable evidence Jesse/Elvis would have had to identify himself BEFORE submitting the DNA samples.
The only way to prove that this is his DNA is performing a new Legal DNA Test, involving showing a government issued ID, being photographed and fingerprinted.
I don´t know why I assumed that Jesse and the rest providing DNA did that procedure in an authorized lab.
Does Jesse even exist? I only saw a pic of him and a psychiatric Doctor confirming that Jesse is his patient.
Is this a prank? I mean, Eliza seems to have real intentions about legalizing who her father is but so far no one has seen Jesse with the exception of Eliza and the Doctor.
Well, as far as I read on the probate lawyer blog neither Doc. Hinton has seen Jesse...
Here it is:
Another was that the book led to an investigations of Dr. Hinton for mail fraud, by the Missouri Attorney General's office, as well as by the DEA, and by the Missouri State Board of Healing Arts for illegally prescribing medications to a patient he had never met in person. Dr. Hinton actually surrendered his ability to prescribe medicine and was placed on 5 years probation by the medical board.
"prescribing medications to a patient he had never met in person"...
And probably also Eliza has never met Jesse...
-
If this is all a prank and fiction then a lot of questions will have answer to me, regarding all we've been fed so far and also the good intentions of the ones feeding us. For now I don't make a final conclusion, but I think we will all know soon.
The constant feeding about Elvis tie both to TS and TMZ. Also TMZ has been feeding the Elvis thing. If this goes hand in hand and if it is all fiction then (I just have to say it,it's what I think) we should start questioning everything that we've been told by TIAI. If this is all a prank, fiction, made up story, then everything we've been fed so far could very well be the same fiction and made up story. It's easy to state all the time "think for yourselves, you are warned", because this way you draw a line in the sand, you wash your hands of any responsability, It's easy to do that.
But now, I really think it's time for everyone to question everything we've been fed so far. If this is a huge fiction and these characters don't even exist, then WHAT is true in what we've been told? Anything?
-
hi mo i have a question. isnt it possible for eliza to be vernons brother vester child since vernon and vester married two sisters ( gladys and clettes) even with the dna evidence she has wouldnt it still be the same outcome. this jesse could be vester and clettes son.
I really don't know bubaliciousjlb...
I didn't question the authenticity of the DNA evidence itself and I won’t, because I simply don’t know if it’s authentic or not. There are several possible scenarios but until these DNA test results are no longer under seal, discussing the possible scenarios is merely speculation.
thank you for your answer mo. i really dont know how the dna thing works so i was just curious. i guess im jumping the gun here a bit thank you.
-
Ok. I understand.
So in order for this to be legal accepted evidence, Jesse has to be a real person and have the whole catalog with him (the documents who prove he exists and that the DNA sample belongs to him).
No Anna, in order for this to be legally acceptable evidence Jesse/Elvis would have had to identify himself BEFORE submitting the DNA samples.
The only way to prove that this is his DNA is performing a new Legal DNA Test, involving showing a government issued ID, being photographed and fingerprinted.
I don´t know why I assumed that Jesse and the rest providing DNA did that procedure in an authorized lab.
Does Jesse even exist? I only saw a pic of him and a psychiatric Doctor confirming that Jesse is his patient.
Is this a prank? I mean, Eliza seems to have real intentions about legalizing who her father is but so far no one has seen Jesse with the exception of Eliza and the Doctor.
Well, as far as I read on the probate lawyer blog neither Doc. Hinton has seen Jesse...
Here it is:
Another was that the book led to an investigations of Dr. Hinton for mail fraud, by the Missouri Attorney General's office, as well as by the DEA, and by the Missouri State Board of Healing Arts for illegally prescribing medications to a patient he had never met in person. Dr. Hinton actually surrendered his ability to prescribe medicine and was placed on 5 years probation by the medical board.
"prescribing medications to a patient he had never met in person"...
And probably also Eliza has never met Jesse...
His doctor talked to him.
[youtube:o0coc2s2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8FshnSFpg4[/youtube:o0coc2s2]
-
Also this man, Jon Cotner, who i believe is an Elvis impersonator, has been out there since some years back. This man has been publishing some Biblic studies as well.
http://joncotnersbiblestudy.yolasite.com/ (http://joncotnersbiblestudy.yolasite.com/)
http://britepath.wordpress.com/jon-cotn ... -bible-cd/ (http://britepath.wordpress.com/jon-cotners-new-bible-cd/)
http://joncotnersbiblestudy.yolasite.co ... esinfo.php (http://joncotnersbiblestudy.yolasite.com/biblestudiesinfo.php)
[youtube:2xhhrq7z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwSKT2oWu4Q&feature=related[/youtube:2xhhrq7z]
The court can have a hard time accepting that Elvis is alive :roll: So many impersonators out there.
-
Ok. I understand.
So in order for this to be legal accepted evidence, Jesse has to be a real person and have the whole catalog with him (the documents who prove he exists and that the DNA sample belongs to him).
No Anna, in order for this to be legally acceptable evidence Jesse/Elvis would have had to identify himself BEFORE submitting the DNA samples.
The only way to prove that this is his DNA is performing a new Legal DNA Test, involving showing a government issued ID, being photographed and fingerprinted.
I don´t know why I assumed that Jesse and the rest providing DNA did that procedure in an authorized lab.
Does Jesse even exist? I only saw a pic of him and a psychiatric Doctor confirming that Jesse is his patient.
Is this a prank? I mean, Eliza seems to have real intentions about legalizing who her father is but so far no one has seen Jesse with the exception of Eliza and the Doctor.
Well, as far as I read on the probate lawyer blog neither Doc. Hinton has seen Jesse...
Here it is:
Another was that the book led to an investigations of Dr. Hinton for mail fraud, by the Missouri Attorney General's office, as well as by the DEA, and by the Missouri State Board of Healing Arts for illegally prescribing medications to a patient he had never met in person. Dr. Hinton actually surrendered his ability to prescribe medicine and was placed on 5 years probation by the medical board.
"prescribing medications to a patient he had never met in person"...
And probably also Eliza has never met Jesse...
His doctor talked to him.
[youtube:1u043w3c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8FshnSFpg4[/youtube:1u043w3c]
Yeah, he talked to him, but he has never SEEN him....
-
This is ridiculous.
A psychiatric Doctor who never saw his patient. This can´t be true.
-
My understanding from the videos and commentaries from Eliza on her website is that she has never met Jesse either. I believe that she has spoken to him once on the phone, but that is it. Their only other contact has been the envelope that he licked and sent back to her. I wonder if he realized at the time what she was going to do with the envelope? She has claimed on Twitter, facebook, her blogs, etc. how much she "loves" her Presley family (ie. complete strangers), but if she loves them so much, why can't she respect their wishes to be left alone? Why can't she respect Elvis/Jesse's privacy? This is one of the biggest reasons that I think she is really looking for more than just clarity as to her identity.
I am also wondering how the adoption itself plays into this. In other words, if it was a closed adoption, which most adoptions that long ago were, then the identities of the biological parents should have remained anonymous. If this is the case, then exhuming Vernon, which is something she had plans to try to do a few months ago, would be infringing upon his rights for anonymity. (I wonder what ever happened with the notion to exhume Vernon?) I just don't know if the adoption was open or closed. I wonder if there is a way to find that out? I don't recall Eliza addressing this issue.
-
If this is all a prank and fiction then a lot of questions will have answer to me, regarding all we've been fed so far and also the good intentions of the ones feeding us. For now I don't make a final conclusion, but I think we will all know soon.
The constant feeding about Elvis tie both to TS and TMZ. Also TMZ has been feeding the Elvis thing. If this goes hand in hand and if it is all fiction then (I just have to say it,it's what I think) we should start questioning everything that we've been told by TIAI. If this is all a prank, fiction, made up story, then everything we've been fed so far could very well be the same fiction and made up story. It's easy to state all the time "think for yourselves, you are warned", because this way you draw a line in the sand, you wash your hands of any responsability, It's easy to do that.
But now, I really think it's time for everyone to question everything we've been fed so far. If this is a huge fiction and these characters don't even exist, then WHAT is true in what we've been told? Anything?
You're saying
TS lying about Elvis and about Michael?
Failed in Elisa's case= dead Elvis ?= dead Michael?
And in the course, this story Bam will be actually a shock and sadness just for us believers?
This is possible? :? :shock:
-
You're saying
TS lying about Elvis and about Michael?
Yes.That's my opinion.
Failed in Elisa's case= dead Elvis ?= dead Michael?
No. Just that we've been played off.Like hell. Even if I was always one of the people who never believed the Elvis story, I didn't dismiss it completely, like about 5% could be true. But now, for me it's more clear than ever that lied with something, then we've been fooled with everything else. Again, my opinion. I don't know what others feel.
-
TS wrote:
Passing the test does not mean gullibly believing anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it; you have always been asked to verify the evidence for yourself, and debunk it if you can, etc. However, those who refuse anything and everything that TS says, merely because TS is the one who says it—regardless of any and all evidence that has never yet been debunked—they are not at the A+ level on the report card!
TS said that, under almost all believed blindly by the fact that the post is from TS.
But it also said this and put much emphasis on his words, perhaps by the blind belief that
TS » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:16 am
After 33 years of question and debate over whether Elvis Presley faked his death: we now have the strongest scientific proofs that he really did fake his death—and in fact, he is still alive to this very day!!!!!!!! And this is not based on some lunatic fantasy whims, that Elvis is living on a paradise island; no, this is documented evidence which is so strong, that it’s the basis for a legal case which is already in court. And to top it all off: there’s a good chance that this will all be hitting the news this summer!
In fact, all you need to do is ask people to go to http://www.ElvisAndMJ.com; (http://www.ElvisAndMJ.com;) whether they are Elvis fans, or MJ fans, or anyone really—maybe we can even get the attention of the media! This is an easy domain name to remember, and it’s already pointed to this thread (and it will stay here, even if TIAI redirects elsewhere). Also, I will be watching this thread pretty closely; and if anyone posts ridicule or other non-evidence based objections, I will be here to call them on it (unless someone else does before I do).
But he also said this, not if referring to the parallels between Elvis and Michael who still persist or all, the case of Eliza and Michael plan much like Elvis, I think it came time for a response from TS
-
You know what is so funny? We have two women, Eliza and Linda. Both women claim that Elvis is alive, both never met him in person. Linda says that Jesse wants Eliza to stop, Eliza says that Elvis supports her. If exposing Elvis/Jesse would be so dangerous, then WHY is Linda's page still up? And why would Jesse/Elvis send a licked envelope of which he KNEW people could use to expose him? Why are we all believing Linda? Just because Eliza's evidence is not according the books? That's a little narrow minded. If Linda would really be so concerned about Jesse and his safety, she would have pulled the website. If I get an e-mail or a call tomorrow from Jermaine, Janet or anyone else from the family that this website is dangerous to Mike, it's offline in a split second, simple as that.
Eliza says Elvis wants to set the record straight before he is really gone. If some people know what he wants to do, one way or another (not saying he will be back in person again), there is a big chance people want to avoid that. I am just amazed how people say that they were so quick to believe Eliza's story, now people are even quicker to believe Linda's story. I don't get that, but who am I?
-
I see it in another way.
Eliza, Linda and the Doctor believe someone who they never saw, someone who told them "Hey, I am Jesse but in real, I am Elvis, I never died".
The prank could have been played on them.
Those people believe in a man´s word who they never met in person and trust him blindly.
That trust leads people to act and those actions costs the legal system and private people ( as Eliza) money as well.
On the other hand, they sell books about the story and media takes the time to sell commercial space.
Blind faith.
The same happened when MJ was accused. Someone said "he did it" and with no real evidence but words, MJ was set in to court.
-
And I see it from the point of which there is no chain of custody, it to be able to be sufficient in order that the judge to reject the case, which I spend with Vernon Presley's exhumation as PeaceLoveHappiness said
-
I see it in another way.
Eliza, Linda and the Doctor believe someone who they never saw, someone who told them "Hey, I am Jesse but in real, I am Elvis, I never died".
The prank could have been played on them.
Those people believe in a man´s word who they never met in person and trust him blindly.
That trust leads people to act and those actions costs the legal system and private people ( as Eliza) money as well.
On the other hand, they sell books about the story and media takes the time to sell commercial space.
Blind faith.
The same happened when MJ was accused. Someone said "he did it" and with no real evidence but words, MJ was set in to court.
But if this is a "prank being played on them" then it is being done by a Presley relative because the DNA from the envelope, that Jesse licked, matches the Presley's and Eliza's DNA matches the Envelope DNA and the other DNA reportedly from Presley relatives.
So...
Eliza's is therefore related to the Presley family and so is Jesse. How would they have known this about Eliza prior to the DNA being tested? What purpose would Presley family members have for trying to do this sort of "prank" on Eliza? Who would be behind that and for what goal?
-
I guess that the Presley family is large.DNA could have been coming from any Elvis related family member.
Their reasons? I have no idea.
-
You know what is so funny? We have two women, Eliza and Linda. Both women claim that Elvis is alive, both never met him in person. Linda says that Jesse wants Eliza to stop, Eliza says that Elvis supports her. If exposing Elvis/Jesse would be so dangerous, then WHY is Linda's page still up? And why would Jesse/Elvis send a licked envelope of which he KNEW people could use to expose him? Why are we all believing Linda? Just because Eliza's evidence is not according the books? That's a little narrow minded. If Linda would really be so concerned about Jesse and his safety, she would have pulled the website. If I get an e-mail or a call tomorrow from Jermaine, Janet or anyone else from the family that this website is dangerous to Mike, it's offline in a split second, simple as that.
Eliza says Elvis wants to set the record straight before he is really gone. If some people know what he wants to do, one way or another (not saying he will be back in person again), there is a big chance people want to avoid that. I am just amazed how people say that they were so quick to believe Eliza's story, now people are even quicker to believe Linda's story. I don't get that, but who am I?
Since people are blindly following TS in this case, here's the reason as to why people believe Linda:
Silencing the Critics, And $999 REwarD??? You bET
Does MJ Have Any Informers?
Elvis/Jesse had Dr. Hinton as an informer, and he helped to write the book {see Update #6, http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11061}. And Elvis/Jesse still has Linda as an informer {http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/index.php}.
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 2010
ANNOUNCEMENT
I have been asked some questions about why I do not support the court case, why Elvis/Jesse does not support the court case, am I sure that I am still in touch with the real Elvis Presley, why is the court case not within his approval while my web site is, etc.
I will state very briefly here a few answers...but I will not air "dirty laundry" here about this case nor why Elvis/Jesse does not support the case.
His disapproval of this case was made clearly known to each of us involved in October of last year...2009. If you will note, I have stated a number of times, when posting an update on the case that my only interest in this case was because it involved Jesse's DNA. I have not posted one word of update about anyone involved in this case.
You may recall, if you were visiting my web site back last year, that I did remove my pages regarding the party involved and the case from my site rather abruptly.
I only continued to post the court updates and Attorney Andy Mayoras's blog comments about the case on my web site because I knew that the proceedings would eventually substantiate myself and my web site.
Read the entire statement: http://www.lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page53 (http://www.lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page53)
-
Since people are blindly following TS in this case, here's the reason as to why people believe Linda:
Silencing the Critics, And $999 REwarD??? You bET
Does MJ Have Any Informers?
Elvis/Jesse had Dr. Hinton as an informer, and he helped to write the book {see Update #6, http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11061}. And Elvis/Jesse still has Linda as an informer {http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/index.php}.
Mo, I want to ask you now that you pointed this out for everyone to see: If Linda turns out to be a fake (which I most likely think now even more than before), and she herself submitted "evidence" that she is real and not lying (the letters that Jesse wrote to her, autographs, etc.) and at the same time we have TS that submitted his evidence to prove he's real and telling the truth- now that Linda might be involved in making up a huge lie, then this makes TIAI a huge lie too?
And if not, then considering that this Elvis story could be very well a huge made up, then this implies: WHAT in TIAI posts IS true?Considering he INSISTED on this Elvis connection all long, and in the last update he even said that there won't be many redirects not before Eliza's case starts. So the Elvis thing is his main focus.
-
Since people are blindly following TS in this case, here's the reason as to why people believe Linda:
Silencing the Critics, And $999 REwarD??? You bET
Does MJ Have Any Informers?
Elvis/Jesse had Dr. Hinton as an informer, and he helped to write the book {see Update #6, http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=11061}. And Elvis/Jesse still has Linda as an informer {http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/index.php}.
Mo, I want to ask you now that you pointed this out for everyone to see: If Linda turns out to be a fake (which I most likely think now even more than before), and she herself submitted "evidence" that she is real and not lying (the letters that Jesse wrote to her, autographs, etc.) and at the same time we have TS that submitted his evidence to prove he's real and telling the truth- now that Linda might be involved in making up a huge lie, then this makes TIAI a huge lie too?
And if not, then considering that this Elvis story could be very well a huge made up, then this implies: WHAT in TIAI posts IS true?Considering he INSISTED on this Elvis connection all long, and in the last update he even said that there won't be many redirects not before Eliza's case starts. So the Elvis thing is his main focus.
Anna, at this point I have many unanswered questions as well. Piece by piece it looks like all the "solid evidence" we have been provided with over the past 12 months is actually nothing more than fata morganas. I think it's about time that we start assessing ALL the "evidence" we have been provided with by the "evidence" itself, and not by the person who brought it.
-
Are you referring at TIAI strictly or at the whole hoax?
-
Are you referring at TIAI strictly or at the whole hoax?
The whole shit Anna, everything.
-
Are you referring at TIAI strictly or at the whole hoax?
The whole shit Anna, everything.
But why does the Elvis case make you say that everything is just imagination?Is Elvis the main proof of it?
-
In my opinion people shouldn't have put trust in TS and his whole plot about connections. maybe connections are not even existing and he made them look like they would really exist. TS never convinced me
-
I am not taking any sides since I also take TS´s post with a pinch of salt but as the events have been happening, TS predicted albums, news, interviews....
TS knows how the "business" is evolving.
-
I am not taking any sides since I also take TS´s post with a pinch of salt but as the events have been happening, TS predicted albums, news, interviews....
TS knows how the "business" is evolving.
What did TS predict, in fact?
-
Are you referring at TIAI strictly or at the whole hoax?
The whole shit Anna, everything.
But why does the Elvis case make you say that everything is just imagination?Is Elvis the main proof of it?
Anna, please READ my replies...
-
I am not taking any sides since I also take TS´s post with a pinch of salt but as the events have been happening, TS predicted albums, news, interviews....
TS knows how the "business" is evolving.
What did TS predict, in fact?
Have you followed TS´s redirections at all? :shock:
The release of breaking news was one hint as the most recent.
-
I am not taking any sides since I also take TS´s post with a pinch of salt but as the events have been happening, TS predicted albums, news, interviews....
TS knows how the "business" is evolving.
All these predictions were SONY/TMZ related...so you could say "business" indeed Gema.
-
I am not taking any sides since I also take TS´s post with a pinch of salt but as the events have been happening, TS predicted albums, news, interviews....
TS knows how the "business" is evolving.
All these predictions were SONY/TMZ related...so you could say "business" indeed Gema.
;)
-
I did read your replies. I just ask you why is Elvis the main proof of Michael hoaxing his death. Because TIAI said so? So your belief in all this stood only in TIAI authenticity? I ask you because suddenly with the Elvis case falling you completely changed your mind.
-
I did read your replies. I just ask you why is Elvis the main proof of Michael hoaxing his death. Because TIAI said so? So your belief in all this stood only in TIAI authenticity? I ask you because suddenly with the Elvis case falling you completely changed your mind.
I don´t even care about the Elvis MJ comparisons. I take it as 2 different events. But if one goes back to the Elvis death repport, autopsy, how the funeral was handled the mass hysteria around and all the situations happening when Elvis died, MJ´s death in the media has had the same impact.
-
Mo, are you saying that SONY made up TS who came on this forum to cover their crime? I am shocked and don't know what to think. I am even afraid of thinking about it.It can't be.. it can't be..
In my opinion TS is someone who is really in some way obsessed
-
Michael Jacksons trust is 50% of Sony.
-
I did read your replies. I just ask you why is Elvis the main proof of Michael hoaxing his death. Because TIAI said so? So your belief in all this stood only in TIAI authenticity? I ask you because suddenly with the Elvis case falling you completely changed your mind.
No Anna, it's not just the Elvis case, and not just TIAI. There are several "clues" we clamp on to, which in fact don't hold any standing but are merely based on believe instead of on solid proof.
-
I have re-read ALL TS' posts during those days and I was like :shock:
Which SOLID PROOFS TS has given us....?
I'm talking about HUGE evidences and not SONY/TMZ connected...
In TIAI UPDATE #1: HIGH PROBABILITY OF MJ “RETURN” THIS MONTH! he wrote:
1-10. Review of Evidences that TIAI is Genuine
#1. MJ investigation complete, only two days after TIAI announced this update.
#2. 333 pages of FBI files, planned release on same day as TIAI Revealed.
#3. $9.99 while LaToya shopping, connecting with “99” days after 9-9-09.
#4. Six 911 articles on TMZ, the day after TIAI conspiracies on Google (911, etc).
#5. Murray on TMZ news four times, the same day as the TIAI Murray redirect.
#6. Vendetta on 11-5; Evan Chandler / Emerald City on 11-17 (70th anniversary).
#7. 2012 trailer, a week before “Jackson” and many other MJ parallels came out.
#8. TII Resurrection scene in a graveyard (not funeral & casket, etc).
#9. TII would Reveal the hoax (Smooth Criminal, no RIP, BAM statement, etc).
#10. TII would show the MJ “Return” (this very word is now on the DVD).
#11. 1998 autograph codes; 77 days & 7 days all pointed to 9-9-09, and was fulfilled by several TII and MJ related events.
I'm asking you, THESE are SOLID evidences....?
And then we have the Eliza/Elvis story, and he hasn't given us an explanation yet, and TS I don't buy the test thing....
After Mo posted this thread what he did? He redirected to the Barhain thing... well nice psychology: You have been discredited, so why don't give them some details (maybe fakes) about something they are interested in..
I think it's time to open up our eyes, maybe someone has fooled us....
-
maybe someone has fooled us....
And who is that "someone"?
-
maybe someone has fooled us....
And who is that "someone"?
TIAI/TS, probably... or someone else....
-
Wow I am so confused right now..how do we know this conversation isn't a 'test'? Like Mo said maybe we need to go back and look again at all of the evidence.(our evidence not TS evidence). I still think we will come to the conclusion that MJ is alive. I'm not sure what we will decide about TS.
-
Either way is not logical if you think about it. Does it make more sense to believe MJ hoaxed his death, or to believe a group of people murdered him and then came up with this elaborate plan to make it look like he really faked his death....which in turn would expose the truth about themselves...
To me, the second option sounds even more ridiculous than the first.
Unless I'm missing something here, I don't get how any of this disproves TS.
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
If you think that it is a giant hoax you must count the whole family in.
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
MJ´s trust owns 50% of Sony. Michaels kids will benefit from that.
Also, you mention the lie. Well, they need to come with a solution and that will be a comeback in flesh and blood. People have a limit of patiency and the same that we became believers so strongly, can become the worst pain in the neck :lol: :lol:
Of course people will say "leave Michael alone", "He is happy now out from the crowds", but...see to believe 8-)
After all of this hints, I am expecting a flesh and blood come back. We need Michael leading the Army.
-
Michael owns 50% of SONY ATV catalog, not of SONY itself.
I am scared like you cannot imagine.... I simply can't say anything anymore
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
If you think that it is a giant hoax you must count the whole family in.
The family always said that Murray is the whipping boy and someone else is behind Michael death... The family gave us ZERO proofs that this is a hoax, and they never said a thing about TIAI, for TS this hoax has a big purpose, WHY they never gave us a little hint about TIAI and TS if this hoax is SO important?
IF the "army of love" tweet was soooooooo important, then WHY did Marlon tweet all those nonsense tweets to make it disappear again..? WHY isn't it still back? Marlon's last tweet is from August 30
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
If you think that it is a giant hoax you must count the whole family in.
Why? Because TS said so?
-
And that catalog is a good to keep profitable.
-
I am completely desperate right now, I couldn't care less about any material thing or about any catalog. It's Michael's life in all this! And that doesn't prove he's alive!
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
If you think that it is a giant hoax you must count the whole family in.
Why? Because TS said so?
No, because it's obvious that they know something.
-
The family has been saying since day 1 that he is dead or he was murdered. They never give the slightest clue that he's alive.
-
I say again: if SONY supports TMZ - TMZ would cover their crime by promoting a "hoax" , because they represent the media and news are heard through media.
-
The family has been saying since day 1 that he is dead or he was murdered. They never give the slightest clue that he's alive.
No, Michael just went to...the airport.....
-
The family has been saying since day 1 that he is dead or he was murdered. They never give the slightest clue that he's alive.
No, Michael just went to...the airport.....
:lol:
Yes, and, "It will all come out". -Jermaine
"It was a conspiracy... a magic trick... " - Latoya
"Sorry I always smile when I'm upset" - Janet
"We Know What's Going On" - Jackie Jackson song
They clearly know something. And they knew right away. If they knew then why didn't they warn Michael? Do you really think they would all be "in on it" for money? And if MJ was murdered and his family knows who did it, wouldn't you think that Jackson family members would be "eliminated" as well?
It's just too far fetched for me. Even more far fetched than believing the most creative and innovative man in the world planned his own death hoax.
And before we get too discouraged, I have to mention this again...
What about Dave Dave?! To me there is no debunking that one but maybe that's just me...
Also, if Michael owns half of Sony, and Tommy Motolla was the only person MJ had a problem with, then how can we assume that all-things Sony are bad?
-
Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY. I am sick of material things, money. I don't care about them when it comes to his life!
-
No, Dave never was Michael. And Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY
Ok, I'm not going to this into another Dave discussion. But that is your opinion, and you can't disprove mine, so best to drop it I suppose as it won't help our investigation to argue.
-
I edited the post as I knew it would again be interpreted but I see that you quoted me already.
-
I think and think and I just cannot gather myself together. If we take the possibility that SONY together with TMZ and TS are brainwashing us, making us believe it is a hoax, what will they do when lies won't help them anymore? They can't keep up a lie till the end of time. If they provided a plot about a hoax, in order for people to believe this it would have to involve Michael's return- so people would really see he is alive. No impersonator or stupid double would fool people. I don't understand, i don't know what to think. I have my heart in my throat.... I am horrified at the thought this could be all set up by them to cover their crime
If you think that it is a giant hoax you must count the whole family in.
Why? Because TS said so?
No, because it's obvious that they know something.
As >Jaci mentionned it is obvious that the family knows something be it a murder or a hoax, they must know what happened to Michael, they must know that we exist, they must kow a lot of things IMO. I am using my common sense here and if TS said so I agree with him. Just because of what is happening in this thread you are dismissing everything TS said even it nothing is over yet, you are putting the whole hoax into question. Wow. I am 100% convinced that Michael is still alive and that will never change. The paralells with Elvis in this hoax we have seen them, you cannot erase them, and I believe that Elvis faked his death too. If Michael really thought that it was harmful for Elvis he would not have tied him into his hoax at all and would have prevented us from doing the email campaign.
Now regarding the DNA and the COC (Chain of Custody) IDK what to think and I prefer to wait and see what is going to happen before coming to any conclusion. I rely and put my trust in Michael for this. If he has tied his hoax to Elvis' one it must be for a good reason. Keep watching and Keep the faith! Who said that only the strong in mind would resist? He was right!!!!!!!!!
-
"Oh what a tangled web we weave!" Look how easily we have been led astray once again. Back and forth, back and forth we go...blindly following and trusting, when Michael has said himself, just because it's in print, doesn't mean it's a fact, or something to that effect. We can't believe anything that is said , unless we hear it from Michael himself!
I still feel like the "entertainment" part of this hoax is misleading us, from Michael's "message" part of the hoax...yes, the "Love" part.
Michael's message of LOVE is the only "Real" thing in this hoax, it is the one thing that is constant, the one thing that we can "BELIEVE" in! Everything else is "out of our control," and I'm sure we will have the answers when the time for that comes.
Ask yourself this: Would Michael want us to concentrate our time and effort into the "entertainment part of the hoax, or would he want us to concentrate on how we can help make a change in this world and bring back the LOVE?
There is a much bigger purpose to this hoax and Michael's lyrics, speeches and videos/movies, are the "clues" we should be concentrating on, because these "clues" come right from Michael himself, therefore, we can BELIEVE in them as being "truth."
Everything else is just Make.BeLIEve!
-
Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY. I am sick of material things, money. I don't care about them when it comes to his life!
Okay, but that still doesn't answer my question. How can we assume that all-things Sony are bad? And I'm sure there's a lot we don't know about Michael Jackson's role in many things.
I feel like we are all starting for forget who we are talking about here. This is Michael Jackson. I really, honestly, believe that he's one of the smartest human beings to ever live and that nobody other than himself could plan something so intricate and artistic to spread his message of love. And tell me, if Sony is so bad, then why would they want to spread so much love to the world? Doesn't make sense.
-
Also, if Michael owns half of Sony, and Tommy Motolla was the only person MJ had a problem with, then how can we assume that all-things Sony are bad?
Michael owns Michael owns 50% of SONY ATV catalog.
Michael had problems with SONY and not only with Mottola.....
[youtube:q81gou97]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=835XSTScxUw[/youtube:q81gou97]
In TIAI Update #4c: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder, TS wrote:
4-28. MJ Certainly Had Something Big Planned
Is there any evidence that he has been planning this for years, maybe even decades? Yes, there are several things. One of which we already examined, and that is the autographs (1998, Dangerous code, etc). These all indicated at least something major on 9-9-09. The Liberian Girl video, from about twenty years ago, leaves us with a pretty strong feeling that he was already working on this plan back then.
Another thing is the MJ will, dated 7-7-02, exactly 7 years before the memorial
Just a few weeks before, MJ had spoken out and said: “... they never thought, that this performer, myself, would outthink them. ... I promise you, the best is yet to come.”
What was he referring to? What was his plan (outthinking), and when did he implement it? What was the “best” to come after 2002? And what was the big and “innovating” film “surprises” that he mentioned to Geraldo in 2005?
There seems to be no answer to these questions, unless of course the answer is Thriller II (TII). In fact, since MJ did do film clips for TII (Gilda fake death, spider resurrection, etc): then whatever he was planning, we can be quite sure “This Is It”.
This makes any sense for you..?
He planned to do something extraordinary and at the same time outthink them.......... TII...? a SONY movie?!
-
I don't know, maybe I am some kind of weird human if I need PROOFS to believe into something? If we dismiss them all: TMZ, SONY, and all that we believe to be involved, whom we remain with? with NO ONE. So what can we rely our hopes on? I can't believe just BECAUSE. Maybe I am the only one here but I DO NEED something to rely on in order to believe and we dismiss them all. We can't believe this, we can't believe that but keep the faith! How?
-
I say again: if SONY supports TMZ - TMZ would cover their crime by promoting a "hoax" , because they represent the media and news are heard through media.
That is correct.
It may be that TS is someone of TMZ or somebody that handles all affairs of Michael (one of the family or Sony itself). This would explain some things that he knows.
I was always afraid that people would use this hoax death as a publicity stunt to raise money. It's horrible to think of the coolness of this fact, but nothing is impossible.
It seems that now a really strong beat out TS. I do not trust him 100%, but also a great disappointment I Don't hoped so!
Hopefully he wants to explain.
-
Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY. I am sick of material things, money. I don't care about them when it comes to his life!
Okay, but that still doesn't answer my question. How can we assume that all-things Sony are bad? And I'm sure there's a lot we don't know about Michael Jackson's role in many things.
I feel like we are all starting for forget who we are talking about here. This is Michael Jackson. I really, honestly, believe that he's one of the smartest human beings to ever live and that nobody other than himself could plan something so intricate and artistic to spread his message of love. And tell me, if Sony is so bad, then why would they want to spread so much love to the world? Doesn't make sense.
....and what if they are using Michael's message, the same message the he spread during all his life, to promoting the hoax, to use MJ fans to promote something and maybe to hide something else....? The best way to spread the hoax is using his fans..... TS even asked us to go to media with the hoax story, and we know MJ feelings about the media.....
P.S
The Army of Love was created by MJ himself and not by TS... so it's not anything new....
-
Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY. I am sick of material things, money. I don't care about them when it comes to his life!
Okay, but that still doesn't answer my question. How can we assume that all-things Sony are bad? And I'm sure there's a lot we don't know about Michael Jackson's role in many things.
I feel like we are all starting for forget who we are talking about here. This is Michael Jackson. I really, honestly, believe that he's one of the smartest human beings to ever live and that nobody other than himself could plan something so intricate and artistic to spread his message of love. And tell me, if Sony is so bad, then why would they want to spread so much love to the world? Doesn't make sense.
I know this and always said and I keep saying it
-
I don't know, maybe I am some kind of weird human if I need PROOFS to believe into something? If we dismiss them all: TMZ, SONY, and all that we believe to be involved, whom we remain with? with NO ONE. So what can we rely our hopes on? I can't believe just BECAUSE. Maybe I am the only one here but I DO NEED something to rely on in order to believe and we dismiss them all. We can't believe this, we can't believe that but keep the faith! How?
Tarja, this thing about needing PROOF is interesting. What constitutes proof? Can you believe anything anyone says? Can you even believe what you see? I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that ALL I really know in this world, is what I experience in my own little part of it in my own little life. I might even go further and say all I really know for sure is what's in my own heart.
-
Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY. I am sick of material things, money. I don't care about them when it comes to his life!
Okay, but that still doesn't answer my question. How can we assume that all-things Sony are bad? And I'm sure there's a lot we don't know about Michael Jackson's role in many things.
I feel like we are all starting for forget who we are talking about here. This is Michael Jackson. I really, honestly, believe that he's one of the smartest human beings to ever live and that nobody other than himself could plan something so intricate and artistic to spread his message of love. And tell me, if Sony is so bad, then why would they want to spread so much love to the world? Doesn't make sense.
....and what if they are using Michael's message, the same message the he spread during all his life, to promoting the hoax, to use MJ fans to promote something and maybe to hide something else....? The best way to spread the hoax is using his fans..... TS even asked us to go to media with the hoax story, and we know MJ feelings about the media.....
P.S
The Army of Love was created by MJ himself and not by TS... so it's not anything new....
Yes, I know that. And yes I can see what you are saying. But, there really aren't that many hoax believers in the scheme of things. Most of MJ's fans believe he is dead. So would it really be worth all of that effort?
I'm just confused at how this one thing has made everyone forget everything else. If we are being fooled then I want to know, but I think it's very premature to forget about everything we've gathered so far.
-
Michael owns half of SONY's ATV catalog. This doesn't mean he owns half of SONY. I am sick of material things, money. I don't care about them when it comes to his life!
Okay, but that still doesn't answer my question. How can we assume that all-things Sony are bad? And I'm sure there's a lot we don't know about Michael Jackson's role in many things.
I feel like we are all starting for forget who we are talking about here. This is Michael Jackson. I really, honestly, believe that he's one of the smartest human beings to ever live and that nobody other than himself could plan something so intricate and artistic to spread his message of love. And tell me, if Sony is so bad, then why would they want to spread so much love to the world? Doesn't make sense.
....and what if they are using Michael's message, the same message the he spread during all his life, to promoting the hoax, to use MJ fans to promote something and maybe to hide something else....? The best way to spread the hoax is using his fans..... TS even asked us to go to media with the hoax story, and we know MJ feelings about the media.....
P.S
The Army of Love was created by MJ himself and not by TS... so it's not anything new....
Yes, I know that. And yes I can see what you are saying. But, there really aren't that many hoax believers in the scheme of things. Most of MJ's fans believe he is dead. So would it really be worth all of that effort?
I'm just confused at how this one thing has made everyone forget everything else. If we are being fooled then I want to know, but I think it's very premature to forget about everything we've gathered so far.
...and this is the point.... the hoax believers want to spread the hoax theory, right? TS told us that they would take notice of us, both media and non-believers.... The first aim was (is) to spread the hoax, but we are sure that is what MJ wants....? I'm not sure about anything right now
-
I honestly think it's past time to stop suffering with so many disparate stories.
I think we deserve more respect and consideration! We're in this to 17 months and who knows when and how everything will end.
To think that there are people who know exactly what is happening sometimes I despair and I feel a bit silly. I just wanted a more concrete to go on ahead!
That's not asking too much!
-
No Offence to anyone who believes in this TS individual and thier posts but y'all have spent a year and a half-most of you believing in Michael and him being alive,his hoax and his come back and because a member who goes by two letters decides that Michael was murdered,your in doubt?
Who is this TS?
..................Anyone?????
Exactly.
Sorry dude...whoever you are,your posts have zero influence on my opinions and beliefs.
They are both my own,they are forged from what I personally believe to be true or false due to facts,evidence etc and come from my heart.
To me TS is just someone sitting behind a screen writing 90year long posts filled with math and redirects for months and it isn't impressive.They may have info in them prior to it being public knowledge but a few people on here have connections they could use to do the same.Myself being one of them.
Yesterday everyone was on top of cloud 9 over TR tweeting about him being alive,Akon says it all the time....last week the new single,the album,tmz saying he was back......etc etc etc etc...and now people are doing 360's in a matter of mins and believing Michael WAS murdered???
Sorry you have lost me.
Again,no offence to anyone who is a fan of TS.
If anyone does want to go join the Justice4MJ group instead,the link is on their facebook page.I however am staying put in hoaxland <3
-
I however am staying put in hoaxland <3
Me too!
-
Did anyone read my comment on the last page? :cry: :o
-
No Offence to anyone who believes in this TS individual and thier posts but y'all have spent a year and a half-most of you believing in Michael and him being alive,his hoax and his come back and because a member who goes by two letters decides that Michael was murdered,your in doubt?
Who is this TS?
..................Anyone?????
Exactly.
Sorry dude...whoever you are,your posts have zero influence on my opinions and beliefs.
They are both my own,they are forged from what I personally believe to be true or false due to facts,evidence etc and come from my heart.
To me TS is just someone sitting behind a screen writing 90year long posts filled with math and redirects for months and it isn't impressive.They may have info in them prior to it being public knowledge but a few people on here have connections they could use to do the same.Myself being one of them.
Yesterday everyone was on top of cloud 9 over TR tweeting about him being alive,Akon says it all the time....last week the new single,the album,tmz saying he was back......etc etc etc etc...and now people are doing 360's in a matter of mins and believing Michael WAS murdered???
Sorry you have lost me.
Again,no offence to anyone who is a fan of TS.
If anyone does want to go join the Justice4MJ group instead,the link is on their facebook page.I however am staying put in hoaxland <3
Not only because of TS, but by recent events.
There comes a time that we have to analyze all possibilities. Many people here dedicated his belief 100% ST.
Do not know if it's fake. I'll wait for the unfolding of history. But I'm disappointed with this history of fake CD and everything!
-
Did anyone read my comment on the last page? :cry: :o
I did it was an awesome post. Swaying back and forth in the wind...
-
Before I began to read TS post (and I still think that many of them are interesting and no one found the opposite) I believe that Michael is alive, now my problem is with all this mess in the case of Eliza, I thinking that TS should give an explanation, now I have my doubts, I'm sorry
I am a human being ..
I will read once again all post ...
-
I do consider both,and I am prepared for both outcomes.
My point is one person is not going to influence what I believe in.
My post as I said twice wasn't meant to be offensive to anyone on TS's side.I just personally do not understand how people sway with the wind so easily.
-
Mo, you made a very good analysis.
I always thought that those DNA proofs were taken and accepted within the law to proceed with a court meeting.
Back to point 0 again?
I second this.
Mo you have proven through investigation the concerns a number of us raised about the validity of the DNA evidence as described by A Mayoras and Eliza.
I have been wondering for a while whether MJ may be orchestrating the whole Linda/Eliza/Elvis/Mayoras story and if so with which intend?
-Revealing that Elvis did indeed hoax his Death whether the latter wants it or not.
-Adding an additional "twist" in the hoax production and getting us into a rabbit hole --- in a symbolic move to bury Elvis once more.
-Testing our capability in assessing information --- MO you passed the test!
The Eliza Presley court hearing being on the 14th December, on the same day the new album is due to be released is more than a mere coincidence IMO....
This is all puzzling!
With L.O.V.E
You are absolutely right and that's why the song is called Breaking News.. It may have something to do with it. We just have to wait and see. i commend Mo wonderful investigation.
The 14th will soon be with us, let's see what happens then! Nothing has happened that Justify jumping to conclusions or throwing stones at anybody... My opinion!
With L.O.V.E
-
I've never followed TS, but I find it quite interesting that suddenly after over a year and a half, this person would now claim that Michael has been murdered. If they really believe that, then why have they been leading people on all this time?
-
I've never followed TS, but I find it quite interesting that suddenly after over a year and a half, this person would now claim that Michael has been murdered. If they really believe that, then why have they been leading people on all this time?
TS never claimed Michael was murdered.
Please read all parts of update #4, TS states his case about why it IS NOT murder.
TIAI Update #4a: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7010
TIAI Update #4b: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7064
TIAI Update #4c: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7124
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194
-
did i miss something? i have never been a big fan of ts but in all fairness i dont recall ts saying that michael was murdered.
-
I've never followed TS, but I find it quite interesting that suddenly after over a year and a half, this person would now claim that Michael has been murdered. If they really believe that, then why have they been leading people on all this time?
TS never claimed Michael was murdered.
Oh! My bad, I must have misread another poster's comments then. Sorry for any confusion.
-
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
-
I've never followed TS, but I find it quite interesting that suddenly after over a year and a half, this person would now claim that Michael has been murdered. If they really believe that, then why have they been leading people on all this time?
TS never claimed Michael was murdered.
Please read all parts of update #4, TS states his case about why it IS NOT murder.
TIAI Update #4a: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7010
TIAI Update #4b: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7064
TIAI Update #4c: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7124
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194
Well, and in that update did he give us SOLID evidences.............? :?
-
I've never followed TS, but I find it quite interesting that suddenly after over a year and a half, this person would now claim that Michael has been murdered. If they really believe that, then why have they been leading people on all this time?
TS never claimed Michael was murdered.
Please read all parts of update #4, TS states his case about why it IS NOT murder.
TIAI Update #4a: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7010
TIAI Update #4b: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7064
TIAI Update #4c: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7124
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194
Well, and in that update did he give us SOLID evidences.............? :?
I would have to read them again...
I haven't based my belief in Michael being Alive on what TS has said. TS isn't what brought me to the forums in the first place way back in July 2009. It was other things that just didn't seem right from the very beginning. TS has only seemed to elaborate on things we may have missed or didn't quite understand. His posts seem to validate many things that were already being independently investigated by several different people.
I personally investigated that autopsy report myself and it is full of crap. I spent days, days and more days doing research on that AR. The AR just doesn't fit Michael at all, so if that has been created and doesn't reflect an actual autopsy on Michael Jackson then it is a hoax autopsy. What would be purpose of a hoax autopsy, if not for a hoax? What disqualifies my research on that?
What about the paramedics describing Michael being an old bald man and that they didn't recognize him when the responded to the 911 call. What about the Ambulance photo not looking like 2009 Michael but 80's or 90's Michael and that photo not matching the paramedics description either? What about the 911 call seeming to have come from the Beverley Hills Hotel from a cell phone and not from Murray's cell, which he supposedly talking on moments before he realize Michael wasn't breathing? What about the fire alarm being pulled at UCLA Medical centre, the hospital being evacuated and there being a mass of underground tunnels there with hundreds of entrances/exits? What about Jermaine and the airport slip up and the fact that the LA airport was shut down and yet at least one flight still left? What about all the differing and inconsistent stories between people and even individuals who have been interviewed about the events of that day (and some of these interviews occurred within days of each other)?
This is just a start, there is much more. Is the fact that the DNA was collected improperly in the Eliza/Vernon/Jesse/Elvis paternity case going to negate absolutely everything else, that has been uncovered by us, that supports Michael having hoaxed his death?
I don't know who TS is for sure, I have had my thoughts on that but no matter what, they are not the reason I started looking into this at all nor are they the reason I have continued to research and investigate. I believe that Michael is alive. I believe this because of what we have all discovered from day one and not what a mysterious poster has presented.
-
BRAVO Serenitys_Dream !!!
-
....... however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. ......
.... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
Yes you could be right....the theme of the hoax could be Do you think for yourself!!
An awakening call to those who want to hear.
The message reaches only a few people now........ I wonder if MJ has a plan for the non-believers ...
-
BRAVO Serenitys_Dream !!!
Double bravo and a standing o! :)
-
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
as I was saying, it's easy to say "I lied on purpose" because this way you wash your hands of ANY responsability.
Until WHEN will keep saying "believe" and wait? What is the whole plan?! WHO wants us to believe?
I start to believe now that everyone has a hidden agenda here. Not all the people, but some.
-
I've never followed TS, but I find it quite interesting that suddenly after over a year and a half, this person would now claim that Michael has been murdered. If they really believe that, then why have they been leading people on all this time?
TS never claimed Michael was murdered.
Please read all parts of update #4, TS states his case about why it IS NOT murder.
TIAI Update #4a: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7010
TIAI Update #4b: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7064
TIAI Update #4c: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7124
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194
Well, and in that update did he give us SOLID evidences.............? :?
I would have to read them again...
I haven't based my belief in Michael being Alive on what TS has said. TS isn't what brought me to the forums in the first place way back in July 2009. It was other things that just didn't seem right from the very beginning. TS has only seemed to elaborate on things we may have missed or didn't quite understand. His posts seem to validate many things that were already being independently investigated by several different people.
I personally investigated that autopsy report myself and it is full of crap. I spent days, days and more days doing research on that AR. The AR just doesn't fit Michael at all, so if that has been created and doesn't reflect an actual autopsy on Michael Jackson then it is a hoax autopsy. What would be purpose of a hoax autopsy, if not for a hoax? What disqualifies my research on that?
What about the paramedics describing Michael being an old bald man and that they didn't recognize him when the responded to the 911 call. What about the Ambulance photo not looking like 2009 Michael but 80's or 90's Michael and that photo not matching the paramedics description either? What about the 911 call seeming to have come from the Beverley Hills Hotel from a cell phone and not from Murray's cell, which he supposedly talking on moments before he realize Michael wasn't breathing? What about the fire alarm being pulled at UCLA Medical centre, the hospital being evacuated and there being a mass of underground tunnels there with hundreds of entrances/exits? What about Jermaine and the airport slip up and the fact that the LA airport was shut down and yet at least one flight still left? What about all the differing and inconsistent stories between people and even individuals who have been interviewed about the events of that day (and some of these interviews occurred within days of each other)?
This is just a start, there is much more. Is the fact that the DNA was collected improperly in the Eliza/Vernon/Jesse/Elvis paternity case going to negate absolutely everything else, that has been uncovered by us, that supports Michael having hoaxed his death?
I don't know who TS is for sure, I have had my thoughts on that but no matter what, they are not the reason I started looking into this at all nor are they the reason I have continued to research and investigate. I believe that Michael is alive. I believe this because of what we have all discovered from day one and not what a mysterious poster has presented.
TMZ wrote about the paramedics....
TMZ brought us ALL the different stories, along with the other media....
The 911 call SEEMS........ it's not enough.....
The ambulance picture is clearly a fake, as Oxman confirmed..
Etc....Etc...Etc....
I'm not saying that Michael is not alive, but something stinks here......
-
I personally investigated that autopsy report myself and it is full of crap. I spent days, days and more days doing research on that AR. The AR just doesn't fit Michael at all, so if that has been created and doesn't reflect an actual autopsy on Michael Jackson then it is a hoax autopsy. What would be purpose of a hoax autopsy, if not for a hoax? What disqualifies my research on that?
What made people ever think that that autopsy report was the Real Deal..?
What makes people think that if TMZ would have leaked the real autopsy report there would have been no consequences, especially since it was leaked AFTER Murray had already been charged with involuntary manslaughter? Just think back of what happened after TMZ leaked details of the confidential preliminary autopsy report of Brittany Murphey.
It's quote clear that the autopsy report was fabricated by TMZ. TS and TMZ are cooperating. Therefore it was a piece of cake for TS to predict last December:
But keep watching, we will yet see more developments regarding 9-9-09 and the hoax.
Then TS comes up with TIAI Update #3 one day before that autopsy report is leaked by TMZ and writes:
3-9. The Best Is Yet to Come!
Well, even if you do need more evidence, keep watching for the 9-9-09 update. It will show very strong evidence of the hoax, and against the murder theory—as well as further evidence that TIAI (STUDY) has genuine hoax information (and is not a fake informer).
In Update #4 TS writes:
And then on February 7, just one day before the autopsy report was released to the public, I wrote: “... keep watching for the 9-9-09 update. It will show very strong evidence of the hoax, and against the murder theory—as well as further evidence that TIAI (STUDY) has genuine hoax information (and is not a fake informer).”
When the report was released, everyone could see that the very last thing on the whole report said: “9-9-09, Date Finalized”. Was this a coincidence? There are several dates in the report: most of them in June or July, and a few in August; the latest date (other than the “Date Finalized”) is 8-19-09.
It is theoretically possible that this 9-9-09 date is a coincidence, but not likely for two main reasons.
Genuine hoax information..? Coincidence..? When one participates in fabricating "hoax evidence" it's a piece of cake to make predictions about the content and the release of it, no? The real question here should be: What was the intention of fabricating and leaking a fake autopsy report?[/b]
-
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
If I look at this 'Think for Yourself' issue and go back to my own original thoughts on events surrounding TII and MJ's death, when I undeniably WAS thinking for myself, I come up with the following:
O2 announcement - surprising and weird, why would he be doing concerts again after all this time out of the limelight? Doubts about them ever happening.
Cancellation/postponement of TII concerts - convinced they're never going to happen.
Death - how convenient! Now he certainly won't have to do those concerts.
Memorial - it was just like a show.
TII - no RIP, weird non-MJ moves and mistakes in lyrics.
Everything else I now believe has pretty much come from TMZ, YouTube, TS and this site via TINI and MJJ-777. So I have been heavily influenced by others, in sources that I normally wouldn't give the time of day to. Does the fact they enabled me move those 'original thoughts' into more concrete ideas/beliefs mean I have been 'conditioned'? Should I simply live with my 'original thoughts' and just accept the idea that MJ's passing was puzzling, much like the rest of his life?
Seems like I'm being directed back to the beginning.
-
I don't see how something that hasn't not happened yet makes TS a fake. How about we wait and see.
In any case, if TS is fake it doesn't change my opinion on the hoax. I believed MJ was alive before TS ever came on the scene as S.T.U.D.Y. it'e irrelevant. TS compiles info, gives you a tangible way to validate your own instincts (not dead), and makes minor predictions. It's entertainment and encouragement and that it does well. But it is not the corner stone of the hoax.
There really is no corner stone and there is no domino effect either. In trying to put together a coherent theory anyone will realize this. At every step of the game there are at least 2 different ways to accomplish the same event. If the 911 call was real then the EMTs are real and they were hired on the spot and signed non-disclosures. If the 911 call was staged so were the EMTs. If the ambulance didn't have it's sirens on it's because they couldn't run them because it wasn't a real emergency. If the sirens were on it's because they had the required permits to shot a movie on that day driving that route and the ambulance was chartered. etc etc etc.
As curls wrote, I came to the hoax sites because of my own suspicions that MJ was likely to try a death hoax and reports weren't adding up.
If Sony was behind it they'd make it considerably less obscure and considerably less complicated, much more user friendly with a streamlined obvious progression ARG aspect to it. There would be 3x our numbers doing this not declines in activity month after month. This charade of a mish mosh of an album would have been out by the 1 year anniversary, but wait... there's no need for a mish-mosh tragic faux voice cut and paste because the vault is chock full of 100s of finished unreleased tracks that Sony bought...
Sony didn't pay $250 million for what we have heard so far. They're not morons.
There is no corporate stamp on this, in my opinion of course.
-
I agree with bec and BlackJack, the reasons we came here are STILL THERE, they haven't gone away and they won't go away. And I don't believe Sony is doing all this off its own back to make money from hoaxers, no way. Sony is in on the whole thing IMO. I think it's quite likely TS would be stirring things a bit, if you don't assume he is the absolute authority and that he wouldn't do such a thing you won't get confused and lose hope. I don't understand all the wavering faith that goes on, I rely on my intuition and all the evidence that's on the Index page. That is my touchstone and I don't get disheartened if someone like TS is a bt cryptic and the family still say he's dead. That's been going on since the beginning, nothing's changed. It is about thinking for ourselves and not following anything that we're told absolutely, no matter who says it. Conditioning in any form isn't good. I think the longer this goes on the more people will start to lose hope, but that's just fickle in my opinion, nobody gave a timescale and if you had one in mind and it passed that's not anyone's fault but your own. It isn't our hoax but maybe it is partly dependant on our reactions and our actions.
-
I do not get it.
It seems that whoever TIAI/TS is his/her target audience are believers. They seem not to get attention of „Justice for MJ” or „This is not it” campaigns.
If they are to cover up a murder – seems they have chosen wrong target group and should rather focus on other groups claiming from the beginning it was murder. We are called nuts anyway, so why even bother...
If this was a murder and Sony (or any other big group) was involved, then why not kill him silently with something less spectacular that what actually happened? Simple overdose of regular prescription drugs should probably serve a purpose.
But let’s assume that „they” wanted to do something more unique that this...so why did they left behind crazy half-finished evidence like 911, ambulance first time driver, last photo, etc. Why even bother with fake autopsy report? And if the autopsy report was also a cover up for murder, why it was not prepared more thoroughly then?
I have no idea who TIAI/TS is, but the murder cover up for, let’s be frank, a relatively small group of couple of thousands of believers, makes no sense to me at all.
-
I must have missed something somewhere...I have not seen anything where TS says Michael was murdered!
Having said that, I think it's ironic that along this journey, anyone that has ever spoke out about not believing everything TS has posted was immediately chastised and told to "go read TS's update again". Just like when some of us opposed the whole ElvisandMJ.com thing... we were made to feel like traitors if we didn't want to participate. Now.... all of a sudden TS is a fake and suddenly it seems the ones of us that opposed to believing every word that was posted by him/her are not so wrong after all! I don't get any of this at all!
I have never clung to TS's words, quite frankly I could never understand all the numerology stuff and always took what he/she said with a grain of salt, just like a lot of the stuff I read. That's it... we never know what's the truth or what's fake! I came to this site because I felt something just wasn't right...but I have never beLIEved everything I read. I so many times have read people saying "Think for yourself and Don't believe anything the media says" but time and time again people take whats written by some (TMZ, TS, and others) and quote it as it's the gospel! When for all you know it could be all lies!
I believe Michael is alive, but I research and observe everything and make up my own mind as to what I believe and don't. And please don't think I am bashing anyone here with what I say because that is not my intention at all! These are just my feelings and it's not to hurt anyone. What I am saying is done with LOVE and compassion for everyone here! This has been a very long journey and it's been one heck of a roller coaster ride, and I know it's not been easy. But it's really difficult & heartbreaking to see so many sway back and forth so much... it's like watching laundry on the line flapping in the breeze. Please don't get discouraged by something you read, just Listen, Observe, Validate, Evaluate everything that is written. Listen to yourself and remember what brought you to this forum in the first place!
LOVE, Hugs, & Blessings to All! :)
Keep the FAITH!!
Michael...I LOVE You MORE!!
-
Having said that, I think it's ironic that along this journey, anyone that has ever spoke out about not believing everything TS has posted was immediately chastised and told to "go read TS's update again". Just like when some of us opposed the whole ElvisandMJ.com thing... we were made to feel like traitors if we didn't want to participate. Now.... all of a sudden TS is a fake and suddenly it seems the ones of us that opposed to believing every word that was posted by him/her are not so wrong after all! I don't get any of this at all!
I haven't changed my mind about it all, you should ask Mo. I still hold on to my beliefs and I will continue to do so as long as no one can prove it wrong. I'll just repost what I posted in the other thread, showing that with this thread, nothing was gained but confusion and prejudice:
Okay, since this is all only because of Mo's recent post about the DNA evidence, I will try again. I already replied in that thread that the fact that Eliza's DNA proof didn't go through a court progress wasn't new at all. The lawyer would have mispresented the case, Eliza is a fake, now TS is a fake and Sony, TS and TMZ are covering up a murder plot. All because Mo posted something that has been available to you all since the start. Mo, as you were a little pissed off that I never posted that information, here it is and notice you have had this info since day 1.
The Elvis Presley Conspiracy (Part IV): What does it all mean?
Many people have contacted me wondering about the final installment in The Probate Lawyer Blog's coverage of Eliza Presley and her efforts to prove she's telling the truth about The Elvis Presley Conspiracy. Here are the prior installments to refresh your memory. I promised I would share my personal thoughts about Eliza's DNA and other evidence.
Now I am able to report that I have read all of Eliza's reports from the Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada, which analyzed the DNA. In fact, it's only one of many labs that have examined the DNA at different times. But it's the only lab to have issued reports about all the various samples.
This Paleo-DNA lab reports show:
Eliza and "Jesse" are "1.6 x 10 [to the fifth power] times more likely to be half-siblings as compared to an untested, unrelated person of the general population. These statistics indicate that these two individuals are likely to be biologically related as half-siblings sharing one parent." The report shows a match of 9 out of the 13 "loci" tested.
The likelihood of Jesse being Eliza's father is zero (apparently 11 out of 13 matching "loci" is needed for that).
Jesse and Brenda Smith [the recognized maternal first cousin of Elvis] are 418 times more likely to be related than someone from the general population, suggesting they are biologically related. 6 out of 13 "loci" match.
Jesse and Donna Presley [the recognized paternal first cousin of Elvis] are 45.7 times more likely to be related than the general public, again indicating they are likely to be biologically related. 5 out of 9 "loci" match.
Eliza and Donna Presley are 31.95 times more likely to be related, so once again, they are likely to be related. 5 out of 9 "loci" match.
The 2002 FOX TV Jesse sample was a 100% match with the 2008 Jesse sample (the pink envelope sent to Eliza). All 13 out of 13 "loci" match.
The matching number of "loci" determines if there is a genetic match of kinship. The closer the relationship between people tested means more "loci" will match. Each person would match himself or herself 100%, and no one else (unless there was an identical twin).
With these reports, there are way too many matching "loci" for all of this to be a coincidence.
These reports show that Eliza and the person now referred to by many as "Jesse" are half-siblings, and Jesse in turn is biologically related to the known cousins on both sides of the family tree to Elvis Presley. Because Elvis never had any full siblings (other than a twin, Jessie, who was stillborn), no one else could match cousins on both sides but Elvis himself.
Think about it -- who else is related that close to your cousins on both sides of your family? Only you and your siblings. Even your children and parents wouldn't match as close because they only share half of your DNA.
And I'm not the only one who read the reports and came to this conclusion. Suzanne Stratford did another report for FOX 8 TV News about Eliza's DNA evidence, which you can watch here. This report concludes that the samples do match.
Eliza also sent the results to another independent DNA company to verify the results. The lab owner, Dr. Donald Yates, said publicly that the DNA supported Eliza's claim and that Jesse had to be Elvis. And yes, he said, this means that Elvis is alive. Here's a Memphis newspaper article about it.
Does this mean the world is ready to believe Eliza?
Not quite yet. Elvis' death is a "truth" that has been accepted for more than 30 years. Eliza is literally trying to rewrite history. She's going to need absolute, undeniable proof before she can garner widespread acceptance. But, she's spent too many years of her life battling those who don't want the truth to come out to stop now.
While the evidence I've seen is strong and compelling, I believe the public will need to see something more direct and concrete to prove a conspiracy this strong. Relying on blind samples provided by cousins, outside of the court process, is not enough to change the history books.
There are only two ways to do so.
One would be for Lisa Marie Presley to come forward and provide a little saliva for a DNA test. The attorney for Elvis Presley Enterprises said in the past that Lisa Marie won't, because once she does it for one person, then she'll have to do it for everyone claiming to be related to Elvis.
The problem with that excuse is that Eliza is the only one who has ever presented enough evidence to convince a judge to reopen a Presley Estate. No one else has gotten that far.
Second, if Lisa Marie provides her DNA once, there would be a record of it and she wouldn't have to ever submit it again. The one sample could be tested against anyone claiming to be related to Elvis. So why not do it?
So far, she refused to cooperate when asked by the FOX TV News team in Cleveland, even though it would have quickly ended this entire debate. In fact, Lisa Marie moved to London shortly after Eliza Presley's lawsuit was refiled last August.
Eliza tells me that she will try to compel Lisa Marie to provide her DNA through the ongoing court case, but if Lisa Marie remains in Europe, that's not going to happen.
Which means there is only one other option to conclusively expose the conspiracy to the world. Vernon's grave would have to be exhumed and his body tested. And while they're at it, Elvis' grave should be opened as well.
I know, it sounds very distasteful, and I've asked Eliza about doing that very thing. She doesn't want to do it, unless she absolutely has to. When I first asked her about that possibility, she said it was "unthinkable".
I for one believe there is no choice if Eliza wants to prove she's telling the truth ... unless Lisa Marie Presley changes her mind and donates a little saliva.
Exhuming bodies of famous people for DNA testing has been done before. Here's an article I wrote about famed football player George "The Gipp" Gipper. His body was exhumed for testing because of people claiming to be heirs.
In the book I co-wrote with Danielle Mayoras, Trial & Heirs: Famous Fortune Fights!, we include the story of Sonny Bono. A sample was taken from his body for paternity testing, based on a claim of someone who said he was Bono's secret love-child.
Will Eliza's journey come to this? We'll have to see. Eliza Presley's court case is back on track and scheduled to come to a head this summer. Hopefully, Lisa Marie will reconsider her position and not force Eliza to do what she really doesn't want to do -- seek court permission to exhume Vernon's body.
Until that moment comes, we have to examine the evidence that's there. Is the DNA evidence foolproof? No. While Dr. Yates and others are prepared to say, under oath, that it's definitive, there is the issue of proof in terms where the samples came from.
Eliza can establish the chain of custody showing how she obtained the samples. But for people to accept it, they have to believe her tale about how she got the DNA.
In other words, what if she's making the whole thing up? That's something I've thought about at length (I am a lawyer, after all). If Eliza invented all of this, and the DNA isn't from Presley relatives but is really from her own cousins, and none of them are Elvis relations, then all of the following would have to be true:
Jesse would have to be "in on it," because his DNA matches Eliza's -- so they really are half-siblings.
That would mean either she or Jesse would have had to track the other down, despite their age difference, because Eliza was adopted as a baby and didn't know she had a brother.
They would have also had to track down cousins from both sides of Jesse's family, which again would have been tough because Eliza was adopted.
The would-be-scam would have been started back in at least 2001, because that's when the Dr. Hinton book about Elvis being alive was published.
The scammers would have had to fool Suzanne Stratford and her bosses at FOX 8 TV News (unless they're in on it, of course), because they never would have done the stories if they thought Eliza and Jesse were committing fraud.
They would had to have fooled Dr. Yates and his DNA company, as well as Shirley Mason (the graphologist), among many others -- not to mention the Missouri Attorney General.
Plus, they would have had to plan to submit the Jesse DNA to FOX 8 TV News back in 2002 and then wait to spring their master plan into action in 2008, because Eliza's 2008 sample from the pink Elvis envelope and the 2002 Jesse sample that FOX 8 TV News had tested match each other. Why begin a scam in 2001 only to wait until 2008 to see it through?
Not to mention the fact that if this was all a master scheme to defraud the public, through a court proceeding, why would they have done it knowing that it would be so easy for their plan to fall apart? Elvis Presley Enterprises simply has to march into court with the DNA of Lisa Marie, or either one of the two cousins tested for that matter, and they could prove in a snap that it's not true ... unless, of course, it IS true.
In other words, if this was a fraud, it would be so easy for the "Presley" camp to disprove it that no one would think they could get away with it Yet no one has come forward in the court case to stop Eliza.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy how they could have pulled all this off if it was a giant scam. As hard as it was for me to believe, as an attorney, that Elvis may actually be alive, I find it much more believable that all this evidence is legitimate than Eliza and several others having engineered this entire scam years ago, knowing that it would involve testing of DNA.
But again, no one will believe it for certain unless Lisa Marie Presley cooperates or Vernon's body is exhumed.
That will silence all the doubters. There would be no way to fake that DNA.
Stay tuned until this summer. That's when the real fun begins.
http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2010/0 ... -mean.html (http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2010/05/the-elvis-presley-conspiracy-part-iv-what-does-it-all-mean.html)
What redirect or explanation should TS give you and for what? This info we all already had for months, if only people would READ before they freak out.
So, why were we attacking TS again?
-
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
You are ABSOLUTELY Right BJ, I see things EXACTLY in the same way.
You make 3 important points:
1. We are responsible for our own beliefs and actions... We need to Think for Ourselves!
2. We need to remember all the clues that made us beLIEve in the first place when we suddenly fall into a "rabbit Hole"... one "snag" does not mean everything else is suddenly invalid...
3. Think for yourself would make a very good anthem for the Army of Love... and it could go on the new Army Of Love website... I Love the Idea... How could we best make it happen?
With L.O.V.E
-
Exactly. Evidence about TS uncertain "autenticity" has been here since long and I am very aware of it. Or maybe he has an autenticity in some facts and this doesn't mean his autenticity is related to the "good" thoughts he has for us all and for Michael. Nothing will change my mind that his intentions are in fact bad and they have nothing to do with supporting us but on the contrary: provinding us a deformed image of what he's actually up to with all this.
KEEP WATCHIN' I'd say. I hope it will be cleared up fast but if TS doesn't want to speak... he must have his reasons.. or maybe he has no words? Maybe we'll have a special update soon, where he will explain us the truth and"good "intentions he was delivering, using a new series of numerology to convince. Maybe we should just wait and see
-
RunningGirl I agree 100% with what you just said, especially the second point. It amazes me how many people crumble every time they interpret something as a snag, completely discounting everything they already know. I just don't get it, as my foundation is everything that is on the index page. That won't change, whereas anything else that happens is open to interpretation. We do need to think for ourselves and stop believing every little thing we read no matter who says it or how they say it. Just because it's written in black and white doesn't make it the truth. Even if TS doesn't prove to be a genuine informer who is on the right side, it doesn't change a thing in my opinion. If it does make people lose their faith they were putting too much importance on his words in the first place.
-
I said it thousands of times already and keep sayin' it: TS is no relevance to anything. The only thing TS is providing is a bad feeling of what he's REALLY up to with all this and my intuition fails me too seldom. The only thing TS is showing to me day by day is a strong proof that he's providing a false and deformed image of what he's actually really doing behind all this. As I said before: The path towards hell is paved with good intentions. and or me TS fits this quote perfectly so far.
-
I agree with the last few posts... I still don't understand how this thread turned into us thinking TS is fake. Don't get it at all.
Even IF all this Elvis/Eliza stuff is a bunch of bs, how does that make TS fake? If TS is an insider, I would assume that he's an MJ insider, not an Elvis insider. So what he knows about this Eliza case is probably exactly what the rest of the world knows too. TS has provided us a lot of interesting information, but most of it has just been pointing out and explaining things that were already there that we just weren't seeing or understanding very well. TS has been very helpful, but does that mean that TS knows EVERYTHING there is to know about what's going on in the world? Of course not. Maybe TS was mistaken OR maybe there's more to it than we know yet. I tend to think there has to be more to it, and that we'll soon find out without spending our time sitting here bashing TS who has personally helped me along the spiritual journey of my lifetime... again, I think it's way too premature to discredit everything TS has said based on this one thing. And even if Mo ends up being right about this, I STILL don't see how it makes TS fake OR the Elvis connections irrelevant. In my opinion, if this thing with Eliza is not real.. then that absolutely does NOT mean that Elvis died in 77. Absolutely not. I don't for one minute think he's dead and I don't for one minute think that Michael didn't learn from his faked death.
Also, a sidenote - If Michael's family "knows what's going on" and they know who "murdered" Michael, then why oh why aren't they angry as hell and doing something about it instead of taking this opportunity to excel in their own careers? I find that very hard to believe. Even Katherine is cashing in on her son's death... I just don't think that's very realistic. I think it's more realistic that they know he isn't dead and therefore are trying to keep as much attention as possible on the Jackson family for when the BAM comes. Not to mention, if this was a murder made to look like a hoax... a return from Michael Jackson is needed to make it worthwhile, otherwise not enough people will notice (obviously). And he can't really return if he's really dead. Yes they could use an impersonator. But to me that just sounds too out there. What MJ impersonator is going to act like he's MJ when the world thinks he's dead? How disrespectful would that be...especially to an impersonator who is probably MJ's biggest fan. I know some will do anything for money... but I think that's taking it too far.
-
Agreed. The Jacksons sure don't act like a family whose son was murdered, not at all. TS is another mystery in this great big ball of mysteries and whether he is genuine or not isn't a huge issue for me. I never let him become too relevant to my understanding of the hoax. If he is for real, that's great, if he's not, good for him, he fooled a lot of people. The whole Elvis/Eliza thing is the same for me, it might be a huge red herring, it might be related. Until we actually see how it all plays out what's the point of second-guessing?
-
Having said that, I think it's ironic that along this journey, anyone that has ever spoke out about not believing everything TS has posted was immediately chastised and told to "go read TS's update again". Just like when some of us opposed the whole ElvisandMJ.com thing... we were made to feel like traitors if we didn't want to participate. Now.... all of a sudden TS is a fake and suddenly it seems the ones of us that opposed to believing every word that was posted by him/her are not so wrong after all! I don't get any of this at all!
I haven't changed my mind about it all, you should ask Mo. I still hold on to my beliefs and I will continue to do so as long as no one can prove it wrong. I'll just repost what I posted in the other thread, showing that with this thread, nothing was gained but confusion and prejudice:
Okay, since this is all only because of Mo's recent post about the DNA evidence, I will try again. I already replied in that thread that the fact that Eliza's DNA proof didn't go through a court progress wasn't new at all. The lawyer would have mispresented the case, Eliza is a fake, now TS is a fake and Sony, TS and TMZ are covering up a murder plot. All because Mo posted something that has been available to you all since the start. Mo, as you were a little pissed off that I never posted that information, here it is and notice you have had this info since day 1.
I actually agree with what Puff wrote in todays TIAI thread, so I'll quote her:
It's not about who is right and who is wrong.. it's about sharing information.. We DIDN'T know that and not because we didn't read the probate lawyer's blog, but simply because that is NOT what we were looking for...You didn't read the probate blog either, otherwise it wouldn't have taken you 4 days to post it.
If you knew these information even before Mo's post why haven't you shared them? I think it's a pretty huge thing and not a BS
I'm adding to the above that if you had posted the info you apparently picked up on as from day 1, you could have avoided the whole "fraud issue" in this thread you were so pissed about.
Oh well, at least all the info is out here now, clear and for everyone to see.
-
There seemed to be a shift in energy when the redirect for the new Army of L.O.V.E. site [ now under construction] came. Are we becoming two camps here? I also must add that it was not TS that made me believe in this hoax death as I had woken up to that fact before I had ever heard of him and TIAI. But I have learned so much about various topics that I previously was clueless about, and I will forever be grateful that I have recieved such an education. I thank you TS. Sometimes I have the impression that this thread's dramatics could be scripted. It does have everyone's attention. I'm hoping you guys can kiss and make up.
-
I agree with the last few posts... I still don't understand how this thread turned into us thinking TS is fake. Don't get it at all.
Even IF all this Elvis/Eliza stuff is a bunch of bs, how does that make TS fake? If TS is an insider, I would assume that he's an MJ insider, not an Elvis insider. So what he knows about this Eliza case is probably exactly what the rest of the world knows too. TS has provided us a lot of interesting information, but most of it has just been pointing out and explaining things that were already there that we just weren't seeing or understanding very well. TS has been very helpful, but does that mean that TS knows EVERYTHING there is to know about what's going on in the world? Of course not. Maybe TS was mistaken OR maybe there's more to it than we know yet. I tend to think there has to be more to it, and that we'll soon find out without spending our time sitting here bashing TS who has personally helped me along the spiritual journey of my lifetime... again, I think it's way too premature to discredit everything TS has said based on this one thing. And even if Mo ends up being right about this, I STILL don't see how it makes TS fake OR the Elvis connections irrelevant. In my opinion, if this thing with Eliza is not real.. then that absolutely does NOT mean that Elvis died in 77. Absolutely not. I don't for one minute think he's dead and I don't for one minute think that Michael didn't learn from his faked death.
Also, a sidenote - If Michael's family "knows what's going on" and they know who "murdered" Michael, then why oh why aren't they angry as hell and doing something about it instead of taking this opportunity to excel in their own careers? I find that very hard to believe. Even Katherine is cashing in on her son's death... I just don't think that's very realistic. I think it's more realistic that they know he isn't dead and therefore are trying to keep as much attention as possible on the Jackson family for when the BAM comes. Not to mention, if this was a murder made to look like a hoax... a return from Michael Jackson is needed to make it worthwhile, otherwise not enough people will notice (obviously). And he can't really return if he's really dead. Yes they could use an impersonator. But to me that just sounds too out there. What MJ impersonator is going to act like he's MJ when the world thinks he's dead? How disrespectful would that be...especially to an impersonator who is probably MJ's biggest fan. I know some will do anything for money... but I think that's taking it too far.
The whole Eliza/Elvis thing has discredited TS a LOT..
IF TS is a Michael insider WHY did he throw into MJ hoax Elvis and Eliza?? Sorry but I don't get it....... if you are an insider you should know very well what you are doing! and then if you look at his other posts with different eyes, you notice that something is very WRONG.... and I'm dead serious when I say that I don't think MJ planned this hoax along with SONY...
How many dates TS gave us for a possible MJ's BAM...? He even wrote an entire update about a probable BAM, but of course it never happened....
And about the family.... We can't ignore what Randy is spreading...
randyjackson8 Randy Jackson
Sitting in court & I'm sad. Those profiting most from my bro’s death: AEG, Randy Phillips, Kenny Ortega, Estate Executors r nowhere in sight
8 Feb
randyjackson8 Randy Jackson
Ok Can’t say 2much. WHY WHY WHY r LAPD & DA ignoring evidence that goes beyond Dr. Murray? Wondering who they r protecting. Hmmm. Talk to me
17 Feb
randyjackson8 Randy Jackson
Let me be clear, there is an investigation pending…. I keep my cards close to my chest.
17 May
randyjackson8 Randy Jackson
Keep in mind, the evildoers are reading my tweets too… But, I will not stop until justice is served. It goes way beyond Murray.
17 May
randyjackson8 Randy Jackson
The will: Me knowing my brother, Yes I believe its fake. I’d love 2 talk more in depth, but can’t. Am I doing something about it? of course
7 Jun
randyjackson8 Randy Jackson
Re: Mesereau. Tom’s been a friend for 20 yrs. I hired him 4 the 05 trial. We discuss all of the discrepancies about my brother’s passing.
7 Jun
......
or those tweets are part of the hoax plan...?
La Toya was the first one who talked about the murder plot... even Jermaine talked about it.....
-
Having said that, I think it's ironic that along this journey, anyone that has ever spoke out about not believing everything TS has posted was immediately chastised and told to "go read TS's update again". Just like when some of us opposed the whole ElvisandMJ.com thing... we were made to feel like traitors if we didn't want to participate. Now.... all of a sudden TS is a fake and suddenly it seems the ones of us that opposed to believing every word that was posted by him/her are not so wrong after all! I don't get any of this at all!
I haven't changed my mind about it all, you should ask Mo. I still hold on to my beliefs and I will continue to do so as long as no one can prove it wrong. I'll just repost what I posted in the other thread, showing that with this thread, nothing was gained but confusion and prejudice
Souza, I respect your opinions and beliefs....just because I don't always agree with everything that is said here does not mean I don't respect everyone's input. I also know that it is very hard sometimes to express oneself completely through posts and it can be taken wrong. It's my sincere hope that no one thought I was being Prejudice against anyone here....because I wasn't! Just because we don't all agree on a subject does not make us prejudice.
Sometimes it seems that if we don't believe Souza's or TS's way then we are wrong! Again maybe I just take your posts sometimes in the wrong context, and if so I apologize for that. Mo posted her thoughts about Eliza's DNA evidence, and if I'm not mistaken we all have a right to our opinions on this forum right? Well the feeling I am getting here is that you seem to be trying to discredit her (as well as others) thoughts and feelings about TS because it's not what you believe. And I say that with Love & Respect Souza, I am not trying to be hurtful....so please correct me in a gentle way if I'm wrong and misread your words!
I honestly don't know where all this confusion is coming from...only thing I'm confused about is the fact that supposedly somewhere TS said Michael was murdered and now everyone is in an uproar. Like some others has said...if you don't put such blind faith in everything TS (and others) says...then there is nothing to be confused about!
Much LOVE, Hugs, & Blessings to All!
Keep the FAITH!!
Michael...I LOVE You MORE! :)
-
Thanks for the reply, Puff. I do get what you're saying. I guess I'm just looking at it like this... if TS is an insider, does that mean he automatically knows the full truth about Elvis? Or did he/she just notice the case and point it out to us so that more people would see the Elvis connections? Maybe the mentality was that so many people to this day still think Elvis faked his death, so by throwing that into the mix maybe more would take notice of MJ because the similarities are all there. But I do see what you're saying too.
Also, yes, Randy has been the only one to seem to stick to his guns with all this. I don't know what that means. I just have a hard time believing the rest of the family doesn't care. Yes Latoya and Jermaine both have talked about murder, but I guess it's just the feeling I get when they are speaking. First, it seems as if they are acting, and second, they always have this huge cheesy-ass grin on their faces. So I guess either way I don't really get it.
I am worried that we are becoming so divided so incredibly quickly that no matter what happens we aren't going to be able to do much about it, and that saddens me. Either way, if this is a hoax or if the hoax is a hoax... Michael needs us! If he is dead or alive he still needs us to spread his message and to stand up to the terrible injustices against him. EITHER WAY!
...And if the family knows the whole truth, it would be REALLY NICE of them to fill us in before we all go mad.
-
RunningGirl I agree 100% with what you just said, especially the second point. It amazes me how many people crumble every time they interpret something as a snag, completely discounting everything they already know. I just don't get it, as my foundation is everything that is on the index page. That won't change, whereas anything else that happens is open to interpretation. We do need to think for ourselves and stop believing every little thing we read no matter who says it or how they say it. Just because it's written in black and white doesn't make it the truth. Even if TS doesn't prove to be a genuine informer who is on the right side, it doesn't change a thing in my opinion. If it does make people lose their faith they were putting too much importance on his words in the first place.
Thank you Trustno1, very well said!
You know, Positivity is is a great attitude to have! It makes such a Big difference in Life because we always end up getting what we ask for... whether GOOD or BAD! :)
There seemed to be a shift in energy when the redirect for the new Army of L.O.V.E. site [ now under construction] came. Are we becoming two camps here? I also must add that it was not TS that made me believe in this hoax death as I had woken up to that fact before I had ever heard of him and TIAI. But I have learned so much about various topics that I previously was clueless about, and I will forever be grateful that I have recieved such an education. I thank you TS. Sometimes I have the impression that this thread's dramatics could be scripted. It does have everyone's attention. I'm hoping you guys can kiss and make up.
Hopefully! We will all learn from the current events and unify back into one Army of L.O.V.E. I will spend more time later working on some of the text for the website... I like creating and I think some of us need to put our energy on the return!
Is it all scripted? ;) gives you my answer... Don't you love Today's TMZ article? I Love it!
With L.O.V.E
PS: ...And TS... I still reject being called a FAN... but Michael is getting a big HUG today which you can share with HIM! ;)
-
Having said that, I think it's ironic that along this journey, anyone that has ever spoke out about not believing everything TS has posted was immediately chastised and told to "go read TS's update again". Just like when some of us opposed the whole ElvisandMJ.com thing... we were made to feel like traitors if we didn't want to participate. Now.... all of a sudden TS is a fake and suddenly it seems the ones of us that opposed to believing every word that was posted by him/her are not so wrong after all! I don't get any of this at all!
I haven't changed my mind about it all, you should ask Mo. I still hold on to my beliefs and I will continue to do so as long as no one can prove it wrong. I'll just repost what I posted in the other thread, showing that with this thread, nothing was gained but confusion and prejudice
Souza, I respect your opinions and beliefs....just because I don't always agree with everything that is said here does not mean I don't respect everyone's input. I also know that it is very hard sometimes to express oneself completely through posts and it can be taken wrong. It's my sincere hope that no one thought I was being Prejudice against anyone here....because I wasn't! Just because we don't all agree on a subject does not make us prejudice.
Sometimes it seems that if we don't believe Souza's or TS's way then we are wrong! Again maybe I just take your posts sometimes in the wrong context, and if so I apologize for that. Mo posted her thoughts about Eliza's DNA evidence, and if I'm not mistaken we all have a right to our opinions on this forum right? Well the feeling I am getting here is that you seem to be trying to discredit her (as well as others) thoughts and feelings about TS because it's not what you believe. And I say that with Love & Respect Souza, I am not trying to be hurtful....so please correct me in a gentle way if I'm wrong and misread your words!
I honestly don't know where all this confusion is coming from...only thing I'm confused about is the fact that supposedly somewhere TS said Michael was murdered and now everyone is in an uproar. Like some others has said...if you don't put such blind faith in everything TS (and others) says...then there is nothing to be confused about!
Much LOVE, Hugs, & Blessings to All!
Keep the FAITH!!
Michael...I LOVE You MORE! :)
[/quote]
I am not trying to discredit anyone, I am sharing my own opinion on this and I think I have the full right to do so. I am not attached to Mo and if I disagree with her, I think I should be able to say so. Do not forget that Mo and I discussed a lot regarding all subjects, and this as well, so I knew she already knew this. This thread is causing that people start to attack each other and others on this forum and that there are now '2 camps'. I can assure you that that is not my choice, not at all. I have shared my opinion in this thread and I actually backed my post up with the blog of the lawyer that is being attacked for giving false information. As you can see, he did not give false information. How is that discrediting Mo? That is the argument for my post and why I said this does not change anything about the case. The fact that people missed that info, doesn't mean it was never there.
Sometimes there is more to things. I am not one to show my frustration on here, but as you can see lately, everything I post that isn't appreciated by some and doesn't support the theory of a fake TS/Eliza or a murder plot, is attacked. I am merely sharing my own opinion on this and I am not going to sit in a corner and be quiet when I see what kind of behaviour this is causing.
We must always realize that there are real people involved and that you can't just say anything you want about anyone. I do not stand for that and until recently, this website didn't stand for that. That apparently changed, and I don't seem to be allowed to voice my opinion anymore. This hoax is about love, and all of a sudden the tide changed on here and all I see is hate, suspicion, accusations, bashing etc.
Everyone can think whatever they want, I am just saying that nothing has been gained from this but drama, as can be seen on the board. And we are nothing wiser than we already were, we are only more divided. In case some are so concerned about the 'tests', maybe this is one. But does accusing people of things that are untrue really mean you are passing the test?
I don't care for tests, this is not a game for me and most certainly not a race. This hoax is important for me for many reasons and I do not like seeing what it is turning into. We are starting to act like the fans on MJJC, who are bashing the family without solid arguments, but only based on assumptions and theories. Who would have thought that would happen on here?
-
Amen Souza. I am in complete and utter disbelief that this is going on. It's like a switch has been flipped and everything we've learned so far was thrown out the window. Army of Love, huh? Well where did the love go? I'm starting to wonder if I should leave the forum, and I have never considered that before not even for a second. I don't want the bitterness to rub of on me...
If Michael didn't fake his death and was murdered then I could accept that and I WOULD want to know if I've been wrong about the hoax... but this is all speculation and nothing has been proven either way, so I simply don't understand the shift going on here.
-
I am not familiar with the law but couldn't the fact that Elvis is supposed to be dead and perhaps, Jesse is not supposed to exist, cause the process of getting his DNA to be a little bit more difficult, especially if he was in hiding? I am pretty indifferent to this whole new turn because I am not familiar with the law and again, this does not negate everything else that has happened since June 25th. I am going to wait it out and I still believe he faked his death. I'm surprise that this whole turn happened so now people are thinking this whole elaborate thing was to cover up a murder? Why would they do that when they could've easily just do a car crash or an airplane crash and be done with it? That would be much simpler than to try to create a hoax of his death with his family right there to discredit it. Speaking of the family, if this is really murder, why hasn't ONE family member discredited this site or the hoax?
-
I must have missed something somewhere...I have not seen anything where TS says Michael was murdered!
Having said that, I think it's ironic that along this journey, anyone that has ever spoke out about not believing everything TS has posted was immediately chastised and told to "go read TS's update again". Just like when some of us opposed the whole ElvisandMJ.com thing... we were made to feel like traitors if we didn't want to participate. Now.... all of a sudden TS is a fake and suddenly it seems the ones of us that opposed to believing every word that was posted by him/her are not so wrong after all! I don't get any of this at all!
I have never clung to TS's words, quite frankly I could never understand all the numerology stuff and always took what he/she said with a grain of salt, just like a lot of the stuff I read. That's it... we never know what's the truth or what's fake! I came to this site because I felt something just wasn't right...but I have never beLIEved everything I read. I so many times have read people saying "Think for yourself and Don't believe anything the media says" but time and time again people take whats written by some (TMZ, TS, and others) and quote it as it's the gospel! When for all you know it could be all lies!
I believe Michael is alive, but I research and observe everything and make up my own mind as to what I believe and don't. And please don't think I am bashing anyone here with what I say because that is not my intention at all! These are just my feelings and it's not to hurt anyone. What I am saying is done with LOVE and compassion for everyone here! This has been a very long journey and it's been one heck of a roller coaster ride, and I know it's not been easy. But it's really difficult & heartbreaking to see so many sway back and forth so much... it's like watching laundry on the line flapping in the breeze. Please don't get discouraged by something you read, just Listen, Observe, Validate, Evaluate everything that is written. Listen to yourself and remember what brought you to this forum in the first place!
LOVE, Hugs, & Blessings to All! :)
Keep the FAITH!!
Michael...I LOVE You MORE!!
MJ_AlwaysandForever
I already stated this once, but will do it again that I MIS-READ ANOTHER POSTER'S COMMENT AND THOUGHT I READ THAT TS WAS SAYING MICHAEL HAD BEEN MURDERED. I WAS MISTAKEN, TS DID NOT SAY THAT. I don't follow him, so I was just skimming through the TS related comments in this thread, hence the error on my part. Once again, I am sorry for any confusion this has caused.
Sorry for the large font and capital letters, but since my error was missed once, I thought I would make it larger so no one else misses it.
-
I am not familiar with the law but couldn't the fact that Elvis is supposed to be dead and perhaps, Jesse is not supposed to exist, cause the process of getting his DNA to be a little bit more difficult, especially if he was in hiding? I am pretty indifferent to this whole new turn because I am not familiar with the law and again, this does not negate everything else that has happened since June 25th. I am going to wait it out and I still believe he faked his death. I'm surprise that this whole turn happened so now people are thinking this whole elaborate thing was to cover up a murder? Why would they do that when they could've easily just do a car crash or an airplane crash and be done with it? That would be much simpler than to try to create a hoax of his death with his family right there to discredit it. Speaking of the family, if this is really murder, why hasn't ONE family member discredited this site or the hoax?
All great points. Especially the part about a car crash or airplane crash. That would make so much more sense. This was all definitely planned, I just don't think anybody but Michael could have done it. I don't get how Sony and whoever else could have been planning this for 20 years... that would mean a lot of people would have to know about it. It just doesn't make sense and to me seems to be more far fetched than the death hoax itself.
-
I am not familiar with the law but couldn't the fact that Elvis is supposed to be dead and perhaps, Jesse is not supposed to exist, cause the process of getting his DNA to be a little bit more difficult, especially if he was in hiding? I am pretty indifferent to this whole new turn because I am not familiar with the law and again, this does not negate everything else that has happened since June 25th. I am going to wait it out and I still believe he faked his death. I'm surprise that this whole turn happened so now people are thinking this whole elaborate thing was to cover up a murder? Why would they do that when they could've easily just do a car crash or an airplane crash and be done with it? That would be much simpler than to try to create a hoax of his death with his family right there to discredit it. Speaking of the family, if this is really murder, why hasn't ONE family member discredited this site or the hoax?
All great points. Especially the part about a car crash or airplane crash. That would make so much more sense. This was all definitely planned, I just don't think anybody but Michael could have done it. I don't get how Sony and whoever else could have been planning this for 20 years... that would mean a lot of people would have to know about it. It just doesn't make sense and to me seems to be more far fetched than the death hoax itself.
I agree! Oh and to further make my point, has anyone in the family discredited Teddy Riley on his public claim or Akon's? This would be the perfect opportunity for the family to say something. They are more than willing to come out and say they are doubles in the This Is It movie and fake vocals on the Michael album but now they are quiet when it comes to this?
-
I am not familiar with the law but couldn't the fact that Elvis is supposed to be dead and perhaps, Jesse is not supposed to exist, cause the process of getting his DNA to be a little bit more difficult, especially if he was in hiding? I am pretty indifferent to this whole new turn because I am not familiar with the law and again, this does not negate everything else that has happened since June 25th. I am going to wait it out and I still believe he faked his death. I'm surprise that this whole turn happened so now people are thinking this whole elaborate thing was to cover up a murder? Why would they do that when they could've easily just do a car crash or an airplane crash and be done with it? That would be much simpler than to try to create a hoax of his death with his family right there to discredit it. Speaking of the family, if this is really murder, why hasn't ONE family member discredited this site or the hoax?
All great points. Especially the part about a car crash or airplane crash. That would make so much more sense. This was all definitely planned, I just don't think anybody but Michael could have done it. I don't get how Sony and whoever else could have been planning this for 20 years... that would mean a lot of people would have to know about it. It just doesn't make sense and to me seems to be more far fetched than the death hoax itself.
I agree! Oh and to further make my point, has anyone in the family discredited Teddy Riley on his public claim or Akon's? This would be the perfect opportunity for the family to say something. They are more than willing to come out and say they are doubles in the This Is It movie and fake vocals on the Michael album but now they are quiet when it comes to this?
Who said that SONY planned this for 20 years...? They could have thought about it after MJ speech in London against them, and plan all this in 1 years.....
-
Again, why would Sony go through the hassle for only a handful of believers? I mean in the scheme of things, there is only a small percentage of us.
-
I am not familiar with the law but couldn't the fact that Elvis is supposed to be dead and perhaps, Jesse is not supposed to exist, cause the process of getting his DNA to be a little bit more difficult, especially if he was in hiding? I am pretty indifferent to this whole new turn because I am not familiar with the law and again, this does not negate everything else that has happened since June 25th. I am going to wait it out and I still believe he faked his death. I'm surprise that this whole turn happened so now people are thinking this whole elaborate thing was to cover up a murder? Why would they do that when they could've easily just do a car crash or an airplane crash and be done with it? That would be much simpler than to try to create a hoax of his death with his family right there to discredit it. Speaking of the family, if this is really murder, why hasn't ONE family member discredited this site or the hoax?
All great points. Especially the part about a car crash or airplane crash. That would make so much more sense. This was all definitely planned, I just don't think anybody but Michael could have done it. I don't get how Sony and whoever else could have been planning this for 20 years... that would mean a lot of people would have to know about it. It just doesn't make sense and to me seems to be more far fetched than the death hoax itself.
I agree! Oh and to further make my point, has anyone in the family discredited Teddy Riley on his public claim or Akon's? This would be the perfect opportunity for the family to say something. They are more than willing to come out and say they are doubles in the This Is It movie and fake vocals on the Michael album but now they are quiet when it comes to this?
Who said that SONY planned this for 20 years...? They could have thought about it after MJ speech in London against them, and plan all this in 1 years.....
Do you really think so? I give up...
-
I will discuss the following, this is a hoax forum, no one killed anyone, we are here because we firmly believe that Michael is alive. And the following is Opinion, tolerance, respect, truth, sensitivity, creativity, commitment, solidarity.... and why not (fundamental).... love and a touch of humour.This forum is like life, sometimes are lime and other times are sand sand.
Today, tomorrow we may laugh, past tomorrow discusses without attacking... and informative time in this diversity of races, religiòn and color space.
We will return to walk that road...
-
Again, why would Sony go through the hassle for only a handful of believers? I mean in the scheme of things, there is only a small percentage of us.
Yeah. Very small percentage compared to all of MJ's fans that think he's dead.
-
Again, why would Sony go through the hassle for only a handful of believers? I mean in the scheme of things, there is only a small percentage of us.
Has someone asked us to spread the hoax theory all over the world and took it to the media attention...?
We did Media Rally, Twitter Rally, we sent emails to newspaper, TV, etc etc...
This is the letter that we sent during our last media rally:
Dear Madam/Sir,
I hope this e-mail reaches you in good health. The following information might at first glance make you laugh and click away like I did the first time. I do advise you however to get a cup of coffee or tea and spend a few minutes of your time reading at least this e-mail, and even the information linked in it. It will make you scratch yourself behind the ears and any good reporter will be able to make a great article with the following information.
I am writing this e-mail to you with regards to the substantial surfacing evidence that strongly suggests that Elvis Presley is still alive. In addition, interesting parallels between Elvis and Michael Jackson also suggest that the King of Pop himself did not die on June 25, 2009. Again, please read on and base your judgment on the strong scientific evidence that has already been provided in court to support the first claim and most importantly made the court RE-OPEN the Estate of Vernon Presley, for the first time ever.
A woman by the name of Eliza Presley (formerly Alice Elizabeth Tiffin) claims that Elvis is alive and has been going by the name ‘Jesse Presley’, and that she is Elvis’s half-sibling. She has also provided DNA samples confirming her claims. The DNA reports reveal that Jesse Presley is biologically related to Elvis’s cousins on both sides of the family, and because Elvis did not have any siblings (besides a stillborn twin brother), it would mean that Jesse Presley is Elvis himself. The DNA has been analyzed by various laboratories, one of them is the Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada and the results were conclusive. It has also been tested by DNA Consultants, an independent laboratory in Scottsdale. The Lab owner himself, Dr. Donald Yates, testified publicly that Elvis has to be alive (please see the following article published in a Memphis Newspaper on Oct 11, 2008: {http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/oct/11/dna-lab-owner-elvis-is-not-dead} ).
DNA is a strong and undeniable evidence, which is why Eliza Presley had submitted her case in open court. In fact, the Fox 8 and Fox 13 News channels in the United States have reported about it in 2008 (please see the following videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNJCt2y7_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNJCt2y7_I)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhb8jVN6Tl8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhb8jVN6Tl8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qdrxAFVwU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qdrxAFVwU)
Unfortunately, it appears that the mainstream media had not caught on this story, perhaps with the fear of courting controversy. Eliza’s attorney is confident in the outcome of Eliza's case, which will be brought back in court next month to be finalized. In addition to DNA evidence, there exists photographic, graphological (handwriting), and lie detecting evidence to support the claim that Elvis Presley is indeed alive, as Jesse (please do read more about it in detail in Part 6-1 at the following website: http://elvisandmj.com (http://elvisandmj.com) ).
If we can ascertain that Elvis Presley has indeed hoaxed his death, we may infer that Michael Jackson could also have faked his own death by studying the striking similarities between the Kings in both their lives and ‘deaths’.
Let’s have a look at a few out of many:
- One was the King of Rock, the other the King of Pop
- One lived in Graceland, the other in Neverland
- One married the daughter of the other
- Both their deaths were claimed to be drug and heart related
- They both died at home
- They were both taken by ambulance, even though already dead
- They both received CPR on the way to Hospital and were both declared dead at the hospital
- Both deaths led to an investigation into their doctors
- Their middle names were different in death than in life (Aron vs Aaron and Joe vs Joseph)
- Films were released after their deaths: This is it and This is Elvis
- Elvis started his last concert with a 2001 space Odyssey song and Michael started his last tour (HIStory) with an MJ 2040 spaceship and in both cases the sum of the day month and year of their death is equal to the year of their concert intro. (Elvis 16 + 8 + 1977 = 2001; Michael 25 + 6+ 2009 = 2040; please read Part 6-9 of http://elvisandmj.com (http://elvisandmj.com) for more details.)
With the pending court hearing of Eliza Presley (refer to {http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2010/05/the-elvis-presley-conspiracy-part-iv-what-does-it-all-mean.html} for an overview of the case by probate attorney Andrew W. Mayoras, who has actually seen and read the DNA reports) potentially revealing a new truth to Elvis’ death,
I really believe that an article on the striking parallels between the 2 kings would be timely, appropriate and amazing. You could refer the readers to http://www.elvisandmj.com (http://www.elvisandmj.com)
For more information about Michael Jackson’s hoaxed death, you may wish to read this very short recap: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php) (click the flag of your country to read in your own language).
Eliza Presley’s official website: http://www.elizapresley.org (http://www.elizapresley.org).
Thank you very much for your time.
Warmest regards,
Your name + your country
@Jaci
I'm just speculating....
-
Again, if there was a corporate hand in this hoax, it would proceed very orderly, with a more or less predictable path to follow, with exciting and regularly spaced clues that are obvious for all to see, and the result would be a large and thriving hoax community following a well planned and laid out ARG.
There would also be a corporate website attached for all of us to go play on.
We have been discouraged to believe for 17 months. Our numbers have dwindled steadily for the past year with few developments in that time to attract new members.
But the debate is meaningless. We are speculating on things that haven't happened yet. Let's just wait and see.
-
The reason I posted this thread is that I was convinced that at least the majority of our members, including me, were not familiar with the submitted DNA evidence not being legal evidence.
By posting this information I brought some clarity into this case. I was aware of the fact that this post would cause some commotion, but I thought it was important enough to inform everybody about the outcome of my investigation.
Establishing these facts have nothing to do with the feelings people might have towards certain people or towards a belief. They are just clear facts. It's everyones own responsibility how to react on this information. This information was given with a forensic investigation in mind, something MJDHI was created for.
It can't be the case that by providing well-researched information, the forum members immediately end up in two camps, while thorough investigation is the purpose of these boards.
Think, and don't kill the messenger.
-
I think that this is an endless discussion that is going nowhere. You guys are putting everything into question because of the COC? Is it for that? Really.
About Sony/TMZ ask yourself a question. How Michael is supposed to communicate with us?? And not only with us but with the world! He needs these tools, he needs them it is not a question of being good or a tabloid or money or whatever else, this hoax has a bigger purpose and you seem to forget that. TS has proven to be legit I'm sorry you can't just say he is not because of that, the big picture has always to be kept in mind, not all the details will go our way.
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
-
Again, why would Sony go through the hassle for only a handful of believers? I mean in the scheme of things, there is only a small percentage of us.
Has someone asked us to spread the hoax theory all over the world and took it to the media attention...?
We did Media Rally, Twitter Rally, we sent emails to newspaper, TV, etc etc...
This is the letter that we sent during our last media rally:
Dear Madam/Sir,
I hope this e-mail reaches you in good health. The following information might at first glance make you laugh and click away like I did the first time. I do advise you however to get a cup of coffee or tea and spend a few minutes of your time reading at least this e-mail, and even the information linked in it. It will make you scratch yourself behind the ears and any good reporter will be able to make a great article with the following information.
I am writing this e-mail to you with regards to the substantial surfacing evidence that strongly suggests that Elvis Presley is still alive. In addition, interesting parallels between Elvis and Michael Jackson also suggest that the King of Pop himself did not die on June 25, 2009. Again, please read on and base your judgment on the strong scientific evidence that has already been provided in court to support the first claim and most importantly made the court RE-OPEN the Estate of Vernon Presley, for the first time ever.
A woman by the name of Eliza Presley (formerly Alice Elizabeth Tiffin) claims that Elvis is alive and has been going by the name ‘Jesse Presley’, and that she is Elvis’s half-sibling. She has also provided DNA samples confirming her claims. The DNA reports reveal that Jesse Presley is biologically related to Elvis’s cousins on both sides of the family, and because Elvis did not have any siblings (besides a stillborn twin brother), it would mean that Jesse Presley is Elvis himself. The DNA has been analyzed by various laboratories, one of them is the Paleo-DNA Laboratory in Ontario, Canada and the results were conclusive. It has also been tested by DNA Consultants, an independent laboratory in Scottsdale. The Lab owner himself, Dr. Donald Yates, testified publicly that Elvis has to be alive (please see the following article published in a Memphis Newspaper on Oct 11, 2008: {http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/oct/11/dna-lab-owner-elvis-is-not-dead} ).
DNA is a strong and undeniable evidence, which is why Eliza Presley had submitted her case in open court. In fact, the Fox 8 and Fox 13 News channels in the United States have reported about it in 2008 (please see the following videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNJCt2y7_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNJCt2y7_I)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhb8jVN6Tl8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhb8jVN6Tl8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qdrxAFVwU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2qdrxAFVwU)
Unfortunately, it appears that the mainstream media had not caught on this story, perhaps with the fear of courting controversy. Eliza’s attorney is confident in the outcome of Eliza's case, which will be brought back in court next month to be finalized. In addition to DNA evidence, there exists photographic, graphological (handwriting), and lie detecting evidence to support the claim that Elvis Presley is indeed alive, as Jesse (please do read more about it in detail in Part 6-1 at the following website: http://elvisandmj.com (http://elvisandmj.com) ).
If we can ascertain that Elvis Presley has indeed hoaxed his death, we may infer that Michael Jackson could also have faked his own death by studying the striking similarities between the Kings in both their lives and ‘deaths’.
Let’s have a look at a few out of many:
- One was the King of Rock, the other the King of Pop
- One lived in Graceland, the other in Neverland
- One married the daughter of the other
- Both their deaths were claimed to be drug and heart related
- They both died at home
- They were both taken by ambulance, even though already dead
- They both received CPR on the way to Hospital and were both declared dead at the hospital
- Both deaths led to an investigation into their doctors
- Their middle names were different in death than in life (Aron vs Aaron and Joe vs Joseph)
- Films were released after their deaths: This is it and This is Elvis
- Elvis started his last concert with a 2001 space Odyssey song and Michael started his last tour (HIStory) with an MJ 2040 spaceship and in both cases the sum of the day month and year of their death is equal to the year of their concert intro. (Elvis 16 + 8 + 1977 = 2001; Michael 25 + 6+ 2009 = 2040; please read Part 6-9 of http://elvisandmj.com (http://elvisandmj.com) for more details.)
With the pending court hearing of Eliza Presley (refer to {http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2010/05/the-elvis-presley-conspiracy-part-iv-what-does-it-all-mean.html} for an overview of the case by probate attorney Andrew W. Mayoras, who has actually seen and read the DNA reports) potentially revealing a new truth to Elvis’ death,
I really believe that an article on the striking parallels between the 2 kings would be timely, appropriate and amazing. You could refer the readers to http://www.elvisandmj.com (http://www.elvisandmj.com)
For more information about Michael Jackson’s hoaxed death, you may wish to read this very short recap: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php) (click the flag of your country to read in your own language).
Eliza Presley’s official website: http://www.elizapresley.org (http://www.elizapresley.org).
Thank you very much for your time.
Warmest regards,
Your name + your country
.
Why would SONY hold out hope that a small percentage of believers can get the word out faster than their corporate connections? It just doesn't add up IMHO but you can have your opinion and I'll have mines. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
I don't know I really don't have a clue as to how these things work but I have well understood the problem, it is just a hypothesis because when big names are in game maybe they do exceptional things, a crazy hypothesis I concede. Well I will just wait and see I cannot do more than.
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
I don't know I really don't have a clue as to how these things work but I have well understood the problem, it is just a hypothesis because when big names are in game maybe they do exceptional things, a crazy hypothesis I concede. Well I will just wait and see I cannot do more than.
Clearly, because Murray is still a free man. Either way you look at it, murder or hoax, exceptional things have been happening.
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
I don't know I really don't have a clue as to how these things work but I have well understood the problem, it is just a hypothesis because when big names are in game maybe they do exceptional things, a crazy hypothesis I concede. Well I will just wait and see I cannot do more than.
Do you realize that IF the judge takes an exceptional measure such as accepting the inadmissible DNA evidence, he would set a legal precedent? That would affect the entire American justice system, and would mean that from that day on everybody can just file a parentage law suit and submit DNA evidence that is not legally identified. Then they can just as well cancel the whole Chain of Custody clause when it comes to submitting DNA evidence in a court of law.
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
I don't know I really don't have a clue as to how these things work but I have well understood the problem, it is just a hypothesis because when big names are in game maybe they do exceptional things, a crazy hypothesis I concede. Well I will just wait and see I cannot do more than.
Do you realize that IF the judge takes an exceptional measure such as accepting the inadmissible DNA evidence, he would set a legal precedent? That would affect the entire American justice system, and would mean that from that day on everybody can just file a parentage law suit and submit DNA evidence that is not legally identified. Then they can just as well cancel the whole Chain of Custody clause when it comes to submitting DNA evidence in a court of law.
Maybe not accepting the DNA but accepting to make other tests.
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
I don't know I really don't have a clue as to how these things work but I have well understood the problem, it is just a hypothesis because when big names are in game maybe they do exceptional things, a crazy hypothesis I concede. Well I will just wait and see I cannot do more than.
Do you realize that IF the judge takes an exceptional measure such as accepting the inadmissible DNA evidence, he would set a legal precedent? That would affect the entire American justice system, and would mean that from that day on everybody can just file a parentage law suit and submit DNA evidence that is not legally identified. Then they can just as well cancel the whole Chain of Custody clause when it comes to submitting DNA evidence in a court of law.
Maybe not accepting the DNA but accepting to make other tests.
You mean Legal DNA tests, in other words: the normal procedure..? That wouldn't be exceptional...
-
Here you have to do is wait and see what happens, as things are I do not think this is going to be in favor of Eliza, I can be wrong I do not law
-
The DNA must come from a person who can be identified,there is no other way to make it legal.
Vernon is dead, Elvis is dead. The people who can do it are the ones related to Elvis, included LMP.
Why don´t they just go to the court and spit in the jar and all this would be finished? :evil:
I don´t understand why so much problems. Let that woman get her father´s recognition by an ADN test for heavens sake!
-
I'm throwing this out there just for people to linger over. People have been bending the law for years for their agenda. As long as people have certain connections and ways to cover it up, it can be done. Now I am not saying that Eliza's case will go through but IF Elvis/Jesse is involved with the case and really did give his DNA sample, maybe he talk to a few people to work the system so that she is able to go through with her case. Maybe there's a loophole somewhere that we do not know about or thought about. Unfortunately, I am not a lawyer so I am not sure if this is even possible but at this point, I think anything is with everything I've learned throughout this adventure. This could be something TS wants us to look into or I could be totally wrong. A lot of people would be in jail and a lot of people would be out of jail if we really had a fair justice system in America. Just something to think about. :)
-
I'm throwing this out there just for people to linger over. People have been bending the law for years for their agenda. As long as people have certain connections and ways to cover it up, it can be done. Now I am not saying that Eliza's case will go through but IF Elvis/Jesse is involved with the case and really did give his DNA sample, maybe he talk to a few people to work the system so that she is able to go through with her case. Maybe there's a loophole somewhere that we do not know about or thought about. Unfortunately, I am not a lawyer so I am not sure if this is even possible but at this point, I think anything is with everything I've learned throughout this adventure. This could be something TS wants us to look into or I could be totally wrong. A lot of people would be in jail and a lot of people would be out of jail if we really had a fair justice system in America. Just something to think about. :)
Amen to that!
-
Eliza has spent so much time on this case that just for that she deserves that we wait and see what is going to happen. The court will not just throw her case in the dustbin they will surely take into account her journey and the results of the DNA testing and will maybe take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all, an exceptional twist for the good can happen in between. We can't draw conclusions and can only wait and see. Peace.
Can you explain to me why the court might take an exceptional measure to settle it for once and for all in this particular case?
I don't know I really don't have a clue as to how these things work but I have well understood the problem, it is just a hypothesis because when big names are in game maybe they do exceptional things, a crazy hypothesis I concede. Well I will just wait and see I cannot do more than.
Clearly, because Murray is still a free man. Either way you look at it, murder or hoax, exceptional things have been happening.
I want to comment on the statement I bolded above. This isn't really true. I watch several different shows that examine real criminal cases (and yes, some of them have involved Doctors, and no I am not talking about scripted shows like CSI - I am talking about real documentaries that examine real court cases, even murder), and it really isn't that uncommon for it to take this long to bring someone to trial. From a non-hoax standpoint, I don't think it is exceptional at all that Murray is still a free man. I have seen cases where it is several years before a trial begins. Of course, sometimes it is much sooner, but Lawyers and Judges delay cases all of the time for various reasons, and defendants don't always spend the "waiting" time in prison. Unless the person can't afford bail of they are considered a flight risk, many defendants stay free until the trial. Now granted, if Murray had shot or stabbed and killed Michael with a gun or knife, then left the weapon at the scene, and then admitted to it during interrogation, he probably would be sitting in prison right now. But, this case is a 2nd degree manslaughter case where the defendant is pleading that it was an accidental/involuntary death caused my error (or however it is they are wording it), so I am not surprised at all that he isn't in prison right now. If Michael is really dead or doesn't come back before the trial, and Murray is found guilty, then he will most likely go to prison like all other convicted individuals and serve the sentence he is given.
Also, as far as "exceptional cases for big names", I would hope that the Judge wouldn't stoop to that kind of unethical behavior, but if they did, I would think that it would be in the Presley's favor, not Eliza's favor, ie., not allowing the inadmissible DNA nor requiring new LEGAL DNA testing. In other words, there would be no case at all.
It is definitely going to be interesting to see how both the Eliza case and the Murray case play out though.
-
I admire the work and Investigation you made MO and daring to acknowledge that we might have to reconsider everything.
My 2 cents
TS is a FRAUD (specially the stupid numbers stuffs!)
LIZA= FRAUD
JESSE/EVIS=FRAUD
But the aim was to get us going in a stupid direction/little crediblity direction, specially if the webmaster is on board (...) and lose many believers because the persona of Michael Jackson is indeed dead and that's how Michael Jackson wants it. It is a deliberate.
This website has uncover many inconsistencies and if it continued to grow and thrive it will uncover and gain supporters and perhaps more people who could gain more from revealing inside info than lose (if you follow me).
with Love,
(that we can believe in cause it's straight form the horse's mouth!)
I did read your replies. I just ask you why is Elvis the main proof of Michael hoaxing his death. Because TIAI said so? So your belief in all this stood only in TIAI authenticity? I ask you because suddenly with the Elvis case falling you completely changed your mind.
No Anna, it's not just the Elvis case, and not just TIAI. There are several "clues" we clamp on to, which in fact don't hold any standing but are merely based on believe instead of on solid proof.
-
Boy howdy, what drama to come back to.. I'm far too much of an indecisive person to wage any war or radically alter my beliefs at this point because of some facts- I'm so indecisive that it's a miracle I'm even here still after all of this time. I'm just going to see what happens and pray to God every night that MJ reappears sooner than later and this is all set straight for once and for all..
-
I admire the work and Investigation you made MO and daring to acknowledge that we might have to reconsider everything.
My 2 cents
TS is a FRAUD (specially the stupid numbers stuffs!)
LIZA= FRAUD
JESSE/EVIS=FRAUD
But the aim was to get us going in a stupid direction/little crediblity direction, specially if the webmaster is on board (...) and lose many believers because the persona of Michael Jackson is indeed dead and that's how Michael Jackson wants it. It is a deliberate.
This website has uncover many inconsistencies and if it continued to grow and thrive it will uncover and gain supporters and perhaps more people who could gain more from revealing inside info than lose (if you follow me).
with Love,
(that we can believe in cause it's straight form the horse's mouth!)
I did read your replies. I just ask you why is Elvis the main proof of Michael hoaxing his death. Because TIAI said so? So your belief in all this stood only in TIAI authenticity? I ask you because suddenly with the Elvis case falling you completely changed your mind.
No Anna, it's not just the Elvis case, and not just TIAI. There are several "clues" we clamp on to, which in fact don't hold any standing but are merely based on believe instead of on solid proof.
So, now that is a post that has no grounds whatsoever. Where are your arguments? You know if someone gives it an honest go to debunk TS, that's ok, but this is just speculation without any argumentation.
If the numbers are so 'stupid', please explain why he himself used them in so many things throughout the past 20+ years? If it was so stupid, then why is it used in everything after June 25? Explain that before you accuse people of fraud, which is quite the accusation.
-
hmmmmmmmmm.....
My head hurts after reading this thread......
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
I also think we must definitely think for ourselves. After all that's what TS asked for from us :D .
Maybe there is little solid proof he provided in his posts but if there was solid proof outhere I guess everybody were believers .......
-
and the number code is so simple to use and communicate though.... Michael's red 777 shirt has to mean something, hasn't it?
-
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
The main reason for declaring inadmissibility is to make sure evidence is reliable and fair to both sides of a case.
Is this DNA evidence reliable while it's not proven, by the conditions the law sets, who the persons are who submitted it? No.
Would it then be fair to both sides of the case to accept this DNA evidence and base a ruling on it? No.
How can one speak of "justice" and "truth" if the defendant in whatever case would be disadvantaged by accepting unreliable evidence which only benefits the plaintiff?
-
One thing is a fact. It's illogic to dismiss every single clue about Michael and this hoax or consider it without a base just because TS proved himself a fool. period.
-
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
The main reason for declaring inadmissibility is to make sure evidence is reliable and fair to both sides of a case.
Is this DNA evidence reliable while it's not proven, by the conditions the law sets, who the persons are who submitted it? No.
Would it then be fair to both sides of the case to accept this DNA evidence and base a ruling on it? No.
How can one speak of "justice" and "truth" if the defendant in whatever case would be disadvantaged by accepting unreliable evidence which only benefits the plaintiff?
And that is exactly why the defendents can oppose the DNA evidence that was filed and ask for proof of Chain of Custody. They didn't.
@Tarja, explain why TS proved himself to be a fool, I am very curious about your argumentation. So far many have proven to be a fool for accusing people without any valid reason, but maybe you have good argumentation?
-
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
The main reason for declaring inadmissibility is to make sure evidence is reliable and fair to both sides of a case.
Is this DNA evidence reliable while it's not proven, by the conditions the law sets, who the persons are who submitted it? No.
Would it then be fair to both sides of the case to accept this DNA evidence and base a ruling on it? No.
How can one speak of "justice" and "truth" if the defendant in whatever case would be disadvantaged by accepting unreliable evidence which only benefits the plaintiff?
And that is exactly why the defendents can oppose the DNA evidence that was filed and ask for proof of Chain of Custody. They didn't.
First of all - we don't know that. It's just hear-say. We have not been provided with a copy Mr. Bradley's motion. Even if we would be provided with a copy of his motion, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the motion he filed. We are constantly scrutinizing and questioning the validity of the many court papers we have been provided regarding the claims and motions filed with the Michael Jackson Estate, and we can't just skip scrutinizing and questioning other court papers because it suits our ideas and wishes better.
Second - a judge is entitled to toss out inadmissible evidence by own initiative, without the defendant opposing it.
-
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
The main reason for declaring inadmissibility is to make sure evidence is reliable and fair to both sides of a case.
Is this DNA evidence reliable while it's not proven, by the conditions the law sets, who the persons are who submitted it? No.
Would it then be fair to both sides of the case to accept this DNA evidence and base a ruling on it? No.
How can one speak of "justice" and "truth" if the defendant in whatever case would be disadvantaged by accepting unreliable evidence which only benefits the plaintiff?
And that is exactly why the defendents can oppose the DNA evidence that was filed and ask for proof of Chain of Custody. They didn't.
First of all - we don't know that. It's just hear-say. We have not been provided with a copy Mr. Bradley's motion. Even if we would be provided with a copy of his motion, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the motion he filed. We are constantly scrutinizing and questioning the validity of the many court papers we have been provided regarding the claims and motions filed with the Michael Jackson Estate, and we can't just skip scrutinizing and questioning other court papers because it suits our ideas and wishes better.
Second - a judge is entitled to toss out inadmissible evidence by own initiative, without the defendant opposing it.
So you just have to let the judge do his job and wait it out. You can't scrutinize info you don't have and you can't judge something you haven't seen. Accusing people based on info you don't have acces too is just plain wrong. The same happened to Michael Jackson when Tom Sneddon told the world that Mike was a pedophile.
The lawyer was accused of giving false information even though he gave us the right information. Because of that assumption both Eliza and TS are accused of being frauds. Also, people who stay calm and ask to back-up the accusations, are being accused for not thinking for themselves. Sorry, but this is not the way the world should work. Hoax or not, investigations or not, not everything is always black and white and real people are involved. TS might be in on the hoax and used to this bashing, he too is a human being and accused of whatever horrible crime, while he helped us a LOT and gave us valuable information. That is unfair, most definitely because it was all because of your post that was A.) old news and B.) not completely accurate.
That is the last thing I will say about this, I am done repeating myself.
-
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
The main reason for declaring inadmissibility is to make sure evidence is reliable and fair to both sides of a case.
Is this DNA evidence reliable while it's not proven, by the conditions the law sets, who the persons are who submitted it? No.
Would it then be fair to both sides of the case to accept this DNA evidence and base a ruling on it? No.
How can one speak of "justice" and "truth" if the defendant in whatever case would be disadvantaged by accepting unreliable evidence which only benefits the plaintiff?
Yes but is it fair to Eliza that LMP doesn't want and can't be compelled to provide a sample so the matter can be cleared once and for all?
Maybe I am wrong, I don't know...
But looks to me that Eliza is disadvantaged because LMP's refusal.....
-
I think the justice system has a big problem if a person can't prove his/hers TRUTH because the procedures were not according to the book. The justice system should not dismiss the case because of a procedure. Isn't the truth more important than following an existing procedure which might be unperfect as long as it is made by humans?
There should be "invented" another procedures in cases like this one - in order to finally serve the TRUTH.
The main reason for declaring inadmissibility is to make sure evidence is reliable and fair to both sides of a case.
Is this DNA evidence reliable while it's not proven, by the conditions the law sets, who the persons are who submitted it? No.
Would it then be fair to both sides of the case to accept this DNA evidence and base a ruling on it? No.
How can one speak of "justice" and "truth" if the defendant in whatever case would be disadvantaged by accepting unreliable evidence which only benefits the plaintiff?
Yes but is it fair to Eliza that LMP doesn't want and can't be compelled to provide a sample so the matter can be cleared once and for all?
Maybe I am wrong, I don't know...
But looks to me that Eliza is disadvantaged because LMP's refusal.....
Eliza is the one who started the law suit. Eliza is the one who has to submit legally acceptable evidence to support her claim. Had Eliza provided legally acceptable DNA evidence when she filed that suit, then there wouldn't have been a reason to ask for Lisa Marie Presley's DNA.
-
I guess to some extent justice is inded blind..... I guess we don't even need human judges, just put a computer instead, upload all the procedures and make justice.
-
I guess to some extent justice is inded blind..... I guess we don't even need human judges, just put a computer instead, upload all the procedures and make justice.
Amen to that... life is not always fair :( But I do think that everyone gets what they deserve in the end.
-
Jumping to conclusions....
Why don't we just wait and see?
This seems a super silly thing for us to get all fired up about.
-
Jumping to conclusions....
Why don't we just wait and see?
This seems a super silly thing for us to get all fired up about.
Agreed.
-
Same here. ;)
-
TS according to the redirection of October 27, speaks of the Scheduling Conference that is scheduled for 30th November, that day has lawyers will meet with the judge to review in detail the case of Eliza, they will has informed the lawyers what to do and the deadline for doing so, so the case should be properly prepared before trial.
Here the judge may determine that it was fulfilled with the chain of custody DNA testing and Eliza ask the lawyer to comply with that requirement, the problem I see here is how you Eliza comply with chain of custody.
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15181 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15181)
-
wow chill out Souza,
as I wrote it's only my 2 cents.
Oh and I call it again
TS=FRAUD
ELIZA=FRAUD
JESSE/ELVIS-FRAUD
Having read all of TS posts, Eliza's info and all. These are non plausible elements. They're based on superstitions, recycle information or common knowledge at best. As for the numbers, just like Horoscope it means everything or nothing at all it can be used is many way, it is not a an empiric method to use for an investigation.
I do believe in the use symbolic dates such as the 5th of November, ect..which has an historic and verifyable source.
There are tangible evidence like autopsy, documents ,comments or the Album cover commission...
And you're right that part of post " This website has uncover many inconsistencies and if it continued to grow and thrive it will uncover and gain supporters and perhaps more people who could gain more from revealing inside info than lose (if you follow me). " has no ground whatsorever...
cool, don't get over-exctied ,Chill and
Adios!
I admire the work and Investigation you made MO and daring to acknowledge that we might have to reconsider everything.
My 2 cents
TS is a FRAUD (specially the stupid numbers stuffs!)
LIZA= FRAUD
JESSE/EVIS=FRAUD
But the aim was to get us going in a stupid direction/little crediblity direction, specially if the webmaster is on board (...) and lose many believers because the persona of Michael Jackson is indeed dead and that's how Michael Jackson wants it. It is a deliberate.
This website has uncover many inconsistencies and if it continued to grow and thrive it will uncover and gain supporters and perhaps more people who could gain more from revealing inside info than lose (if you follow me).
with Love,
(that we can believe in cause it's straight form the horse's mouth!)
So, now that is a post that has no grounds whatsoever. Where are your arguments? You know if someone gives it an honest go to debunk TS, that's ok, but this is just speculation without any argumentation.
If the numbers are so 'stupid', please explain why he himself used them in so many things throughout the past 20+ years? If it was so stupid, then why is it used in everything after June 25? Explain that before you accuse people of fraud, which is quite the accusation.
-
8-)
Guys I think I prefere to stay here in these threads than in the drama-queen ones. After what happened lately, I just know that I am not here to see drama between anyone and after what happened lately I have many things more clear in my head now.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14496&start=700 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14496&start=700)
Seriously that is funny! You and your sister are the instigators who started the drama in the thread here and other places. How funny you should say your now wanting to stay away from the drama-queens. lol
I don't know, maybe I am some kind of weird human if I need PROOFS to believe into something? If we dismiss them all: TMZ, SONY, and all that we believe to be involved, whom we remain with? with NO ONE. So what can we rely our hopes on? I can't believe just BECAUSE. Maybe I am the only one here but I DO NEED something to rely on in order to believe and we dismiss them all. We can't believe this, we can't believe that but keep the faith! How?
Tarja, this thing about needing PROOF is interesting. What constitutes proof? Can you believe anything anyone says? Can you even believe what you see? I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that ALL I really know in this world, is what I experience in my own little part of it in my own little life. I might even go further and say all I really know for sure is what's in my own heart.
Curls there comes a time when even if Michael himself were standing in the flesh and blood that wouldn't be enough for some people who refuse to believe anything. BTW the info TS provided was from Michael himself. TS stated that many times where he got this info. He provided references for you to look at and then decide for yourself if you believe the info and not TS.
Remember this is about demonstrating the ability to Think for yourself not just blow hot air or comment on it but, do it.
DO you Think 4 your Self.
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9891 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9891)
And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.
[/b]
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
I agree but, I wouldn't call it so much stirring the pot but, more like proving a point!
There seemed to be a shift in energy when the redirect for the new Army of L.O.V.E. site [ now under construction] came. Are we becoming two camps here? I also must add that it was not TS that made me believe in this hoax death as I had woken up to that fact before I had ever heard of him and TIAI. But I have learned so much about various topics that I previously was clueless about, and I will forever be grateful that I have recieved such an education. I thank you TS. Sometimes I have the impression that this thread's dramatics could be scripted. It does have everyone's attention I'm hoping you guys can kiss and make up.
Truth is always stranger than fiction. lol. I don't post alot of what I think when I read threads like this. I keep it censored but, I am going to let a little out of what I think.
There is a mob mentality that happens every single time. Whether it goes in favor of TS or against. There are user names who go from "I am on the TS is super dooper wagon" then a situation happens like this and those same user names are on the "I knew it all along TS is a fraud." Whether this is scripted or not, it is happening.
I read these threads and shake my head and wonder how are we going to get past this issue of being lead in one direction and then another so easily?
I am reminded when I read threads like this of what Michael has said before, "I love psycology" "People make up all these ideas in their heads based on something they think is going on" This must be thrilling for Michael to read all these theories, lol. I know I am entertained. There are very valuable lessons to be learned here if people take the time to see past their own emotions.
First the topic of this thread is about whether or not the evidence of DNA is acceptable in a court of law? There is a legal procedure that needs to be followed in order for the DNA evidence to be legally acceptable. It is the law of Chain of Custody. That is a fact that can not be over looked no matter how much we debate it. Yes it is a pain in the ass to now think about a law that has been in place all along. The topic went from DNA to now TS is a fraud and SONY murdered Michael and is covering up evidence by playing an elaborate "hoax" on us through TMZ and TS, lol
Really you should write for a crime show.
This whole scene wasn't scripted but, it did end up looking like a screen play or soap opera by the end of it, or is it the end?
This whole scene is a very valuable lesson to show how easily people don't focus on the main subject objectively, it showed how easily people don't stick to their convictions, it showed how we may have over looked things in this case and it shows how easily we do over look things, what else have we overlooked? I mean outside of this "hoax"
Things in our own lives and the world around us. What are we focusing on?
Both of the arguements from Mo and Souza hold merit. They are real issues that can be looked at objectively from both sides. I do understand the need for the law to stay in place and it isn't fair that Eliza should have to start over. If we make an acception to her about not having Chain of Custody of DNA we may as well not have any laws that protect INNOCENT people based on DNA evidence.
I understand the lawyer for Eliza wanting to convince the Judge to allow the DNA the way it is because it makes sense it came from living relatives of Elvis and the DNA is connected to Eliza. That is common sense talking.
Do you see how this was a test? Whether it was scripted, planned or divinely created, it was a test. Only you can answer whether you passed or not and what kind of test it was.
I see people feeling to confidant in their thinking (like they are always right) because of validation from TS on their posts and they become manipulated into thinking a certain way. Maybe this was a test to see if you really believed what you wrote before when you got that confirmation or do you switch your belief at the drop of confusion?
It never fails, as soon as a redirect to a post is validated by TS everyone jumps on the wagon and comments flow of how great the person who wrote the comment is. Please don't misunderstand my meaning of everyone and jumps on the wagon. I have agreed with many statements people have wrote when TS redirected to them. That isn't the point. Whether you see it this way or not you are being manipulated. If TS can so easily manipulate you think how the powers to be manipulate you.
That is the biggest lesson this should have shown you. I see this as a merry go round and it is going around and around. I post on the not so very nice things to talk about, I am blunt and in your face. I am not very popular here and neither are my topics. I don't get validation from TS to any of my posts and I still keep posting what I believe to be truth.
That is what you all need to learn, stand on your beliefs no matter if you get a pat on the back or a redirect. I often wondered why I never got a redirect to my posts? I thought sometimes it is because my posts aren't fluffy and full of googy love. I also have thought it is because if I am already demonstrating thinking for myself I am not the one who needs the lesson. It is ok because the truth will stand up to the test of time whether I get a redirect or not.
I have posted a few topics that I wonder why don't people comment on them?
I posted a recent thread in the discrimination and racism section. Some commented and I thank you but, the topic is a subject that many would like not to see. It is a subject that is Important to Michael. I provided evidence from the man himself. It just showed me that Michael was up against the same issue when he tried to bring light to these issues. He was ignored. It is happening again. That is a lonely place to be, I get it.
If anything I said doesn't apply to you please do not feel defensive and comment on how wrong I am in thinking this way.
Peace
“Bam: Not If, But When”. This is important for us to understand, because we can actually have an influence on the “when”; the better we all understand MJ’s message, the safer it will be for him to bam—and the more successful we will be in spreading his message, when countless people come to the hoax forums asking questions.
-
Im_convincedmjalive, I liked your post, given to think much, thanks
-
BlackJack wrote:
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
I agree but, I wouldn't call it so much stirring the pot but, more like proving a point!
.....maybe I should've phrased it 'stirring the pot TO prove a point'.....rather than just inferring it in my post.
I'm_convincedmjalive, I agree with your comments....great post !!
-
I second that, paula-c. @Im_convincedmjalive, I may not comment on all your posts, but let me just say, they are a breath of fresh air and common sense intertwined with your impressive knowledge of the Word of God and your strong faith. When scrolling down the forum topics, I find myself gravitating towards your posts first, which says something about your influence and importance to me personally. Just want to let you know you are noticed and appreciated. :)
-
Im_convincedmjalive..."Thank you", "Hallelujah" and "Amen" to your post!
"Wakey, wakey, rise and "shine" people!"... In the name of L.O.V.E of course! :D
-
Really you should write for a crime show.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Made my night!
-
Im_convincedmjalive
Both of the arguements from Mo and Souza hold merit. They are real issues that can be looked at objectively from both sides. I do understand the need for the law to stay in place and it isn't fair that Eliza should have to start over. If we make an acception to her about not having Chain of Custody of DNA we may as well not have any laws that protect INNOCENT people based on DNA evidence.
I understand the lawyer for Eliza wanting to convince the Judge to allow the DNA the way it is because it makes sense it came from living relatives of Elvis and the DNA is connected to Eliza. That is common sense talking.
I agree, good post! And by the way I'm sure most people here haven't had a redirect yet. I think TS is looking for clear posts with not too much controversy, that single in on a point that would be helpful at this stage of the game, Michael-wise, which only he knows.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the fact that we are now very aware of the legal requirements namely this Chain of Custody for getting DNA tests results taken seriously in court should be a very positive thing to us here. Michael has his reasons to include Elvis and Eliza in his hoax/ARG/BAM, and I'm sure he together with his lawyers discussed all the pitfalls and legal requirements, so none of what Mo has said is likely a surprise. TS just waited for someone (Mo) to discover, and connect the dots. So what I'm thinking is that there have been so many claims of individuals to having Michael being either the father as in Mocienne, Jet Malachi, Omer Bhatti, and (I doubt B. Howard), or his children fathered by others such as Mark Lester and Matt Fiddes. Maybe more will come forward. When these do go to court like they have threatened, then this will hopefully assure everyone of the authenticity of the results. When large money is pending, the chances of fraud increase.
And I remember that in one early TS post that he said the Elvis connection was not just comparison, but also contrast. Eliza seems pretty determined, and if Jesse does want to reveal that he is alive as Dr. Hinton says, then all will unfold with time. Michael has to somehow draw the whole story out for a while yet, but still maintain a high interest and excitement, which he has done. :)
-
;)
I think TS is looking for clear posts with not too much controversy, that single in on a point that would be helpful at this stage of the game, Michael-wise, which only he knows.
Yes I knew that also. I am a little controversial sometimes and I do get carried away and talk about alot of stuff other than just hoax clues. Thank you everyone who commented on my post. I am not upset if I don't get a redirect. I was only using that as a point in my comment.
Peace
-
I prefer to wait and see what happens on the 14th instead of jumping to conclusions. And this is what I posted lately for the ones who oppose to TS and started to think that Mj was murdered by Sony.
You guys who oppose to TS and started to think that Sony murdered Michael are rambling with the same stories around. We talked about all of these issues very long time ago and we came to a conclusion of a hoax planned by MJ himself. Why didn't you oppose then? Why of a sudden you started to oppose TS now? Just because of Eliza's DNA issue? If you are sure that MJ was murdered by Sony and Sony is trying to make the death look like a hoax, these questions would be easy for you to reply. I just want the ones who think that Sony murdered Michael to reply these simple questions.
-Why would Sony try to show his death look like a hoax after murdering him?
*Weren't we all going to buy TII or the new album etc? The ones who don't believe in the hoax are buying every product related to Michael too. If this whole thing didn't look like a hoax to us, weren't we going to buy any new cds or films of MJ? Why would Sony bother to make it look like a hoax?
*The family members including Randy keep on saying that Michael was murdered and Randy gave some names like Sony, AEG etc. *
*They only sued AEG. Why not Sony?
-So why did the estate make a deal with Sony if they believe that Sony killed their son/brother?
-Then why don't they sue Sony if they think that Sony murdered Michael?
*The family says that Sony used a fake voice in the upcoming album. Randy and most of the other family members scream that Sony used a voice-like.
-So why don't they sue Sony about this issue too?
*AEG and Kenny Ortega arranged the memorial and the funeral, so they could put all the hoax clues there like the Liberian Girl pictures etc .
-So why any member of the family asked why there was only Liberian Girl pictures at the memorial and the funeral? They couldn't change the pictures?
*Michael was murdered by Sony/AEG whatsoever.
-Why was everyone smiling, almost laughing at the backstage of the memorial and at the funeral? Wouldn’t they suppose to be mourning? Sony paid all friends and family members to look happy? Sony should have paid money to Katherine too because she went shopping just a day after her son’s “death” and the kids wanted to do camping a day after their daddy’s “death”!
*Joe and Katherine Jackson wore the same outfits they had worn during Michael’s trial.
-Sony also paid them to wear the same outfits?
*Janet forgets where she was when she first heard about her brother’s “death.
-Sony paid her to forget where she was?
*Jermaine, Latoya make slip-ups all the time.
-Sony paid them to make the slip-ups too?
If you're defending an idea, you need to have rational explanations. You come up with the same issues and repeating yourselves. Come up with rational explanations or accept that you're wrong. And if you made up your mind that Michael was murdered, you don't need to spend your time here. Justice for MJ groups are waiting for new members. I'm so done with the newly non-believers. It seems like they closed their minds to the truth which is so obvious. It's totally your loss people.
-
I'mconvinced..., this quote made my day and I salute you for it! ;)
Seriously that is funny! You and your sister are the instigators who started the drama in the thread here and other places. How funny you should say your now wanting to stay away from the drama-queens. lol
-
BlackJack wrote:
In my opinion, TS could be stirring the pot a little, particularly in this Eliza case, however I still think this was an important post which is the theme of the hoax for me :
DO you Think 4 your Self. That also implies to not allow yourself to be conditioned by TS.....to my way of thinking it has been done on purpose and just look at the results here!!. People start to doubt straight away and fall into despair again, as has been the case whenever the family won't confirm that MJ's alive. Remember, as I've said before, all of the clues and inconsistencies that point to this being a charade are STILL THERE no matter what new information comes out in the future that implies otherwise. We MUST be objective and think for ourselves rather than be conditioned by anyone or anything..... we really need that anthem I've been talking about on the other thread; maybe we should write one OURSELVES!!!!!!!
I agree but, I wouldn't call it so much stirring the pot but, more like proving a point!
.....maybe I should've phrased it 'stirring the pot TO prove a point'.....rather than just inferring it in my post.
Yes... to prove a point.
-
[youtube:mvvgdbdy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uKnkjtaZJU[/youtube:mvvgdbdy]
-
Time will tell but time is passing and we are getting older and maybe we shall die before the truth comes out....
-
This whole Eliza Presley / TS issue that was turned into a drama needs some more explanation and the information which was held back needs to be given to make people understand what really went down.
Two events triggered my thorough investigation:
- The thread "Legal fund Eliza Presley" posted on 10/28/2010 in which was asked to donate towards Eliza Presley's legal fund.
- An email from Eliza Presley which Souza and I received on 11/13/2010 in which we were asked to remove our recent posts about her court case because according to her our posts were hurtful and offending.
My first steps into this investigation resulted in posts in which I questioned Eliza's motives and in which I expressed my opinion about a final ruling in this case not having the BAM effect people are expecting.
These posts (some of my posts were replies to Souza's posts in that thread) were the reason Eliza contacted us, but in her email she explicitly says that her email is intended as a PRIVATE message for only the two of us and she doesn't expect to see it posted on our site at any time in the future. I was highly surprised as I have not written my posts with the intention to offend or hurt anyone, but I did notice Souza had already deleted her posts during the night.
I replied to Eliza that the results of logical reasoning and thinking, stating opinions, sharing opinions and discussing them is exactly what these boards were created for. Also I told her that If she thought my opinion was wrong, she was welcome to join a healthy discussion and express her opinion on this.
She emailed me again, and I strongly got the feeling she was trying to play on my emotions, just like she had done in her first email. I'm sorry, but I'm not sensitive to remarks as "do you think this is what the jackson or presley family want to see happen?", "I thought this site was started with love in mind and in your hearts for michael", "do you not believe the dna or my words that elvis is indeed still alive and able to read your words as well?" and "and I know that michael would despise all of this as well".
Again, I refused, this is an investigation board after all, and her case was presented as a big part of the MJ hoax, so why should I not investigate it?
To cut a long story short - after researching for a week I posted the thread in which I explained that Eliza's evidence is not legally acceptable.
I don't want our members to donate money towards a case which is maybe a lost case from the start. It's my opinion one can only ask for money when all legal procedures have been fullfilled. Has one not done that, then the facts should be presented in a clear way so that people who want to donate would know upfront that there's a reasonable chance her case will be dismissed.
I hope everyone now understands why I posted that thread and what my reasons for posting it were.[/b]
-
trouble again here....
-
trouble again here....
No trouble, just clearing things up.
-
I hope Souza is busy somewhere else for the moment..... I don't want to be here when she will read your post :lol:
Sorry, but I've never thought you 2 will come to disagree on something.
-
I hope Souza is busy somewhere else for the moment..... I don't want to be here when she will read your post :lol:
Oh...why?
-
I think we'll see soon enough why :) and if I am wrong, very good, this means peace and quiet here :D
-
This whole Eliza Presley / TS issue that was turned into a drama needs some more explanation and the information which was held back needs to be given to make people understand what really went down.
Two events triggered my thorough investigation:
- The thread "Legal fund Eliza Presley" posted on 10/28/2010 in which was asked to donate towards Eliza Presley's legal fund.
- An email from Eliza Presley which Souza and I received on 11/13/2010 in which we were asked to remove our recent posts about her court case because according to her our posts were hurtful and offending.
My first steps into this investigation resulted in posts in which I questioned Eliza's motives and in which I expressed my opinion about a final ruling in this case not having the BAM effect people are expecting.
These posts (some of my posts were replies to Souza's posts in that thread) were the reason Eliza contacted us, but in her email she explicitly says that her email is intended as a PRIVATE message for only the two of us and she doesn't expect to see it posted on our site at any time in the future. I was highly surprised as I have not written my posts with the intention to offend or hurt anyone, but I did notice Souza had already deleted her posts during the night.
I replied to Eliza that the results of logical reasoning and thinking, stating opinions, sharing opinions and discussing them is exactly what these boards were created for. Also I told her that If she thought my opinion was wrong, she was welcome to join a healthy discussion and express her opinion on this.
She emailed me again, and I strongly got the feeling she was trying to play on my emotions, just like she had done in her first email. I'm sorry, but I'm not sensitive to remarks as "do you think this is what the jackson or presley family want to see happen?", "I thought this site was started with love in mind and in your hearts for michael", "do you not believe the dna or my words that elvis is indeed still alive and able to read your words as well?" and "and I know that michael would despise all of this as well".
Again, I refused, this is an investigation board after all, and her case was presented as a big part of the MJ hoax, so why should I not investigate it?
To cut a long story short - after researching for a week I posted the thread in which I explained that Eliza's evidence is not legally acceptable.
I don't want our members to donate money towards a case which is maybe a lost case from the start. It's my opinion one can only ask for money when all legal procedures have been fullfilled. Has one not done that, then the facts should be presented in a clear way so that people who want to donate would know upfront that there's a reasonable chance her case will be dismissed.
I hope everyone now understands why I posted that thread and what my reasons for posting it were.[/b]
I have two words for you: integrity and empathy. It seems both words have no meaning to you. I am not going to start drama over this, because I do like to keep things private. Eliza was not upset by your post itself Mo, because that info has always been present for everyone for months. But the fact that you allowed an attack on her by people claiming her to be a fraud, was a step too far and you know very well that THAT was her issue, not the post itself. While you say your investigation was very thorough, you missed a very important fact, that be that the info that the lawyer you attacked for giving distorted information, did post the right information after all. If your investigation really would have been as thorough as you claim, you would have known that as well and a lot of biased and prejudice comments and accusations could have been avoided.
On this site we post theories and we do that with respect to others and we do not accuse people of whatever, based on twisted words. There was a day you agreed on that and you decided to walk away from that a few days ago. But lately you don't agree with anything I say, so clearly not on that anymore as well.
As for the Eliza donation thread, that was only removed due to the fact that it could have had legal concequences for someone other than you or me and that was my only reason to remove it. People on this board are very capable of thinking and deciding for themselves, although you seem to share a different opinion lately.
Do not try to wash away your own mistakes by attacking other people and twisting their words Mo, that's not classy at all and until recently not really your style.
-
See? Told you :lol:
Good night everybody
-
Eliza was not upset by your post itself Mo, because that info has always been present for everyone for months. But the fact that you allowed an attack on her by people claiming her to be a fraud, was a step too far and you know very well that THAT was her issue, not the post itself.
No Souza, Eliza sent us that email on 11/13/2010, so way BEFORE I posted the thread about her inadmissible DNA evidence. She wanted US to remove OUR recent posts in the Linda Hood thread, it had nothing to do with allowing an attack on her. She referred to posts, made recently by US (as moderators). She explicitly wrote it that way. She did not email me after I posted the thread about her inadmissible evidence.
Do not try to wash away your own mistakes by attacking other people and twisting their words Mo, that's not classy at all and until recently not really your style.
Until recently I have allowed you to attack and discredit me here in public on this forum but as from now I will disprove each of your wrongly attacks with facts. All the other things you will say I will just ignore.
-
Until recently I have allowed you to attack and discredit me here in public on this forum but as from now I will disprove each of your wrongly attacks with facts. All the other things you will say I will just ignore.
Take a look in the mirror Mo and see who started this useless fight not worth my valuable time anymore. This is going in circles and has no goal whatsoever. I did not attack you, I critisized your post because you distorted the facts and noone else. I do not have to agree on everything you post, most certainly not when people are accused in a thread you started and you let it happen. You never got my point: questioning is fine, that is what we are here for, but we ALL present just theories and should therefore hold into account at ANY time that we are dealing with real people here. The idea that it is all fake should not give a green card to accuse people. It is my RIGHT to critisize your post when I see you posted information that is not true. You might not like that, but don't you do the same to others here on the board? Isn't that how we get a step further everytime? Or do you believe people should have just taken everything you wrote for truth and I should not be allowed to give my opinion because you are an admin? I don't think so Mo.
This is my last reply to you personally. I gave you the opportunity to handle this privately, you decided to take this to the board and no one else. You also decided to discuss this issue with other people (there's that word integrity again). I will not take false accusations towards myself and will therefore NOT ignore you. Besides that I read and reply to all kinds of threads here, so yours as well, and I am here to read and share information, and if you have information, I don't see why I should ignore that. But you can ignore me, no problem. You also ignored me when I mailed you with the request to handle this privately and in a mature way.
-
I'm gonna be the one asking the question...
You are both admins on this forum. Don't you have a private place to talk about all this, just the 2 of you who maybe know each other, as you decided to create a forum together...
i mean, what is your reason to have this public, and have all members feel uncomfortable and asking themselves if they'll have to choose a side among the admins
:|
Can't this forum just be about Michael and about investigation, cause i thought that was the reason it was created for ? We're all split because of this woman i don't even know about and all the forum is hanged to your lips trying to find out what's happening in here...
Is it the way it has to happen ?
-
I'm gonna be the one asking the question...
You are both admins on this forum. Don't you have a private place to talk about all this, just the 2 of you who maybe know each other, as you decided to create a forum together...
i mean, what is your reason to have this public, and have all members feel uncomfortable and asking themselves if they'll have to choose a side among the admins
:|
Can't this forum just be about Michael and about investigation, cause i thought that was the reason it was created for ? We're all split because of this woman i don't even know about and all the forum is hanged to your lips trying to find out what's happening in here...
Is it the way it has to happen ?
Exactly why I have said in a few threads already that this should be handled privately and in a mature way and NOT on the board. Also why I have stated I will not reply to this issue anymore but I did want to let people know there is not just one side of the story here. Whatever the issue is is between Mo and me but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to critisize her post when I see wrong info in it. If you post wrong info I would comment on that too and she will as well. We are all different people and we do not always share the same opinion. That is what makes this world interesting.
-
Anyways..., done with the drama and back to the investigation.
-
thanks for your answer ;)
-
thanks for your answer ;)
Any time.
-
We have all had their differences and discussions with our families or friends, and those things are overcome, i hope that all this forget and continue all working together
-
As for the Eliza donation thread, that was only removed due to the fact that it could have had legal concequences for someone other than you or me and that was my only reason to remove it.
:?:
-
As for the Eliza donation thread, that was only removed due to the fact that it could have had legal concequences for someone other than you or me and that was my only reason to remove it.
:?:
Nothing mysterious here, it's a registrant thing but there is no need to name people. I hope this was it and that we can continue with the hoax instead of posting personal attacks.
-
So one simple question:
Can you please show us the post where we can read that the legal dna evidence isn't accepted in a court case? (Because you stated that this was known information.)
Until I read the chain of custody information I always thought Eliza had a solid case, but when that information got out it spread a different light on things, to make things worse Eliza asked to remove this evidence and any investigator would know someone did't want that certain information is being spread. So I was happy finally some solid evidence was brought up, instead of lame redirects which essentiality say:
"Just wait and see" :roll:
-
By ""evidence" I meant:
. Do you think the Elvis Presley Estate would accept DNA on an envelop, sent in by mail? I don't think so... They would demand a swap being taken from Jesse by an expert, and they will probably demand that witnesses from the Estate be present when that happens.
because I suspect this was the quote which triggered Eliza to ask to remove these posts, and triggered Mo to investigate the matter further.
So why hold back this important information ?
-
:shock:
Whoa
-
By ""evidence" I meant:
. Do you think the Elvis Presley Estate would accept DNA on an envelop, sent in by mail? I don't think so... They would demand a swap being taken from Jesse by an expert, and they will probably demand that witnesses from the Estate be present when that happens.
because I suspect this was the quote which triggered Eliza to ask to remove these posts, and triggered Mo to investigate the matter further.
So why hold back this important information ?
Imo, Elvis family members are a big part of this. If in fact Elvis is alive, all of them may be feel nervous about the outcome. The media will be judgemental for sure.