Blog

[Dontwalkaway]

Thanks for all your hard work Bec !

:icon_e_wink:

[Andrea]

So is the dummy option now off the table?

Well it doesn't have to be, there's a few points under the Live MJ reasons that could work for a dummy as well (#s 8, 9, n 10, n to some extent #7), but it began to emerge that there were many more reasons supporting LiveMJ theory instead of dummy theory. Additionally, it occurred to me that the loudest and most vehement protest from TS last year regarding the LiveMJ theory is actually the theory's greatest strength... and I've heard that somewhere before:

You see, evil always goes for the jugular by attacking a person's greatest strength

--back, Of a tHeOrY or Vision, MJJC 11/18/09

not that TS is evil, not at all, but it is a brilliant diversion tactic nonetheless.

TS protested that to have LiveMJ there would be too risky, because, what if he is discovered?!? Well exactly... let's go down that road: what IF he is discovered? Several points in the LiveMJ reasons list address this (1, 8, 9, 10, 12). Now flip it around, what if, during all the commotion on 6/25/09, MJ is discovered ELSEWHERE? Hoax over in one fell swoop. No amount of damage control or propaganda campaign can iron that out, it's game over: MJ is not dead, he's not in distress, and he's not at UCLA in the ER being worked on by emergency personnel. Problemo de grande.

So as unlikely as it might seem that MJ might be discovered elsewhere (where ever else he may have "escaped" to on 6/25/09), by MJ being any where other then on that stretcher, this risk exists and would be ever-present with any alternative method.

Ironically... if LiveMJ is there every step of the way, this vulnerability is completely negated-- MJ is never in two places at once, rather, he is always precisely where he is reported to be. In fact, what we have with this LiveMJ option, is complete and 100% elimination of this risk of hoax discovery, and how often did MJ have access to that kind of "insurance policy" on that day?

After 3+ years, and all that we have been able to assert regarding the events of that day, it seems to me that LiveMJ is actually the least risky option on the table.

(besides all that, no one offered any strong points for the dummy theory that didn't also work for LiveMJ-- during the events which TS asked us to focus on way back at the start of Level 7-- who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance-- I did not include the helicopter or coroner van transport, in fact in LiveMJ point 11, I leave that portion of the illusion open ended.)

Ps. On the topic of TS_comments being more or less done after completing Level 7... TS_comments may well be done participating here but recall... it is TS who posts the Updates, not TS_comments. Once Level 7 is completed, I'd actually expect TS_comments to be done, as the Levels of 2011 is where he took over from TS in the first place. We ought not assume they are the same person as they are not the same username.

So what I understand according to this point is that Michael would always have to be where he is supposed to be in order to not expose the Hoax. Which doesn't make sense because of course at some point he is going to move/travel anyway and the risk to be discovered isn't going to change as far as I can see. The FBI would escort him with the same amount of safety on June 25th or any other day. Actually wouldn't it be best to escape/leave that day while everybody thinks he is in L.A./UCLA? Maybe.

If Michael was discovered anywhere but UCLA that day the hoax could've been over as soon as it had begun.  If he didn't go to UCLA there is the risk, however minimal, of being caught. Actually being where he was reported to have been means there is zero chance of someone seeing him in a different location at the same time.  The trail goes cold after the coroner van gets to the coroner's so Michael can then get to where he needs to go, in cloak-and-dagger style, having successfully convinced everyone he's died that day.  And bec makes a great argument that had something happened to the ambulance or at UCLA and someone saw the person on the stretcher, it would be a visual confirmation that it was Michael and not anything/anyone else.  Live MJ playing dead MJ also works best with the movie aspect of the hoax.

[angelbabe1]

Thanks for all your hard work Bec !

:icon_e_wink:

I ditto that Bec,   Thanks so much for your time and great work...   :bearhug:

[ShyBleuEyes]

 :) i also wanted to  Thank you Bec, for all the work...

Respect!

Shy

[MJonmind]

Paula, I remember hearing just that part before but not the video, so I'll watch them later.  Interesting the banner behind them—The Source.com   :icon_cool:

Bec, just a thought, I feel that IF there is any truth to 'live MJ on death scene' scenario, TS will NOT admit to it perhaps for safety or other reasons, but who knows.  We will have to wait for 1/1/2013 to see if he is a 'fake informer', which I very much doubt, but what do I know. MJ may want some things to ALWAYS remain in the realms of mystery. TS said, "A magician never reveals how he does a trick".  I completely trust MJ, thus TS and Front, but the complexity and layers to the Man and the Message are what make me want to trust what he tells us happened, with an open mind to future revelations.

TS, just a question, how did our investigation do in regards to the planned projection of how you thought it would do before kick-off day? Did we uncover most of the 'easter eggs', get informed on side issues that affect our world negatively, spend too much time with clutter, enjoy your 'adventure' as much as you thought we would?  Did we bring you a measure of joy and satisfaction?  We literally poured our lives into this for 3 1/2 years, and I'd loved to know your thoughts on that.  Thank you so much for the gift you gave us. We've been blessed off the scale.

[sweetsunsetwithMJ]

I am not putting all my hopes on TS' replies because I am almost sure that the real hoax story will be written in a book or filmed in a movie and I am even thinking that the whole world will be able to be aware of Michael being alive but Michael himself will not be exposed to the public eye anymore for safety reasons so BAM party is being just a chimera right now for me.

ps: good job Bec!.

[Sarahli]

In regards to the DWD act allowing (or not) a patient to ingest the drugs in another state: I had sent an email asking that specific question to the Washington State Department of Health and I received the following answer; they confirm that it is possible:

Hello:
Thank you for contacting our office about the Washington State Death with Dignity Act.
Under the terms of the act, the participant is not restricted to a location where they must ingest the medication.  However, the laws in states in which there is not a similar comparable DWDA law differ regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  For example,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as 'Natural".

The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member's participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as "assisted suicide."  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.

There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State's law.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Home.aspx

[ashprak247]

Thought it would be worth putting some old posts from TS that could explains things more about a dummy, corpse or live mj.

" If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I'm going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could've figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don't dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about. "

[blankie]

Wowww bec !!!  :th_bravo: I finished to translating....   :computer-losy-smiley:  :icon_razz:  Greatest !!!! Thanks !!!!  :bowdown: :bearhug:

[ashprak247]

TS

" MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan). "

" For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777)."

[hesouttamylife]

Great job, Bec!   :beerchug: I can hardly wait to read the replies from TS. 

[Adi]

In regards to the DWD act allowing (or not) a patient to ingest the drugs in another state: I had sent an email asking that specific question to the Washington State Department of Health and I received the following answer; they confirm that it is possible:

Hello:
Thank you for contacting our office about the Washington State Death with Dignity Act.
Under the terms of the act, the participant is not restricted to a location where they must ingest the medication.  However, the laws in states in which there is not a similar comparable DWDA law differ regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  For example,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as 'Natural".

The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member's participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as "assisted suicide."  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.

There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State's law.

http://www.doh.wa.gov/Home.aspx

Good thinking Sarahli!

Interesting response from them.

[paula-c]

if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as 'Natural"

There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State's law

I suppose  that the issues to consider would be legal. :icon_question:

[Andrea]

So there is a way for a DWD patient to end their life in a non-DWD state.

Is that concrete evidence that a real dead body was used in the hoax?  I realize that a DWD patient would be the best option to get a corpse for the hoax but the ability to attain one isn't proof that it was done.  I still don't see the NEED for a real dead body, based on the evidence we have of the actions of those who had contact with the body.

There has been more support for the corpse theory in the last month than ever, I think.  What am I not understanding?   :computer-losy-smiley:

:icon_neutral:

[bec]

So there is a way for a DWD patient to end their life in a non-DWD state.

Is that concrete evidence that a real dead body was used in the hoax?  I realize that a DWD patient would be the best option to get a corpse for the hoax but the ability to attain one isn't proof that it was done.  I still don't see the NEED for a real dead body, based on the evidence we have of the actions of those who had contact with the body.

There has been more support for the corpse theory in the last month than ever, I think.  What am I not understanding?   :computer-losy-smiley:

:icon_neutral:

I think she was just making a comment more then anything.

When I was writing all those posts about debunking DWD patient, I kept tripping over how to explain it because it's difficult.

See, suicide isn't against the law in very many states (and it's not in California)... for obvious reasons. I mean, how do you hold someone accountable for suicide? If they successfully commit the act, they die. If they do not successfully commit the act then they are only guilty of attempted suicide... and that's not a crime either.

So you can call it whatever you want; DWD, suicide, choosing to control the time and manner of which one's own death; regardless, someone kills them selves you have to define it somehow. Suicide is technically correct.

That's not the issue. You can kill yourself and not worry about suffering legal consequences. (well other then life insurance payouts n other death benefits possibly being withheld, but that's Off Topic for our purposes of debate)

Ironically, with suicide, in legalities as much as with emotions, it's the one's who get left behind that will suffer.
(Again, I'm not a lawyer, not even close, this is just how the law reads, and how it's been applied by the courts in CA.)

Because DWD is not legal in CA, and the CA penal code specifically lays out how the state law considers a second party's knowledge of or encouragement for suicide, it would be illegal for MJ and AEG (or equivalent--whoever is the production company working with MJ) to use a DWD patient to help MJ fake his death. They would already be guilty of failure to report, encouraging suicide, facilitating a suicide: essentially aiding and abetting a suicide. These are felony crimes.

It's not a crime because someone died, the dead person and their estate will not be charged, nor will the out of state doctor who prescribed the Rx be charged either. That's not the crime. The crime is the idle bystanders who are anticipating the death and are keeping it a secret, worse, (as it could be easy alleged) with intention to profit from it. It's a crime because in this scenario, they (MJ, Murray, and AEG) encouraged and aided someone to die and kept secret from law enforcement that someone was planning to die, and that person did subsequently end their own life. In California, basically, if you know someone is sincerely planning to commit suicide, you have a duty to at least report it to emergency services. Further, you have an additional duty to NOT do or say anything that might encourage a suicidal person to act. If you do somehow encourage, facilitate, or aid the suicidal person, and the person succeeds (dies), you can and will be charged with a felony in the state.

It wouldn't matter if MJ and Murray left the room while the person actually ingested the meds. Their actions up until that point, and the subsequent death of the patient are what makes them guilty of aiding and abetting a suicide in the eyes of CA law. It doesn't matter how the patient himself sees it, or how we see it, the law in CA sees it as a felony for anyone to aid or abet a suicide.

Conversely, in WA or OR, people can openly attend the last moments of a DWD's life, know about it ahead of time (no duty to report), and help make it a positive experience for a person seeking end of life council and support without being subject to prosecution by law enforcement. It happens in other states (suicide by hospice patients), certainly, but it's done very hush hush and people have to hide and lie. Laws regarding suicide similar to the one in California are why. The California statute is specific in how it views witnesses (friends and family usually) involved with DWD-type decisions, and it is particularly rigid.

This is what makes Point #1 against dead body point #1, but it's also the hardest thing to explain, for me, somehow. I always end up with a novel.

Ps. You guys are all so sweet with your nice posts to me about the lists. My reply is it was my pleasure entirely, I am at your service. Everyone who pm'ed me and contributed, thank you again.